MR PLIMSOLL AND THE HOUSE OF COMMONS

Evening Star, Issue 3920, 16 September 1875, Page 3

MR PLIMSOLL AND THE HOUSE OF COMMONS

Log-roll ng is not confuted to the Colonies, but is powerful enough in the Parliament of Great Britain to prevent (military reforms. By electrio telegraph intimation was received that Mr Plimsoil had incurred the censure of the House of Commons through his outspokenness regarding the burking of the Merchant Shipping Act, and that the country had espoused his cause and supported him by public meetings. The Colonies are deeply interested in the proper regulation and safety of merchant shipping, and our reaiera will therefore be glad to know what realiy took phco ; we therefore reprint the' Times" report lmm the mail, the immediate cause of Mr Plimsoll's conduct was Mr Disraeli's announcement that •ne of the Bills mtendrded to b* abandoned on account of the approach of the end of thrBcsaiun was the Merchant Shipping Bill r i he other nortioua of his speech related to to ally different matters It will he area that another Bill—the Agricultural Holdim.B Bill —is meutioned aa having a preference It i ■ a Bill which the landed proprietors hare an interest in passing, while the shipping in. terest i 3 geneia'ly opposed to the Merchant Shiupin 'j Bill : --

Mi (io.schcn : I wi'h to express, in one word the deep sense of regret with which, as repre seating a constituency with a large shipping

interest, I have heard, if I may say it without offence, that of the two Bills which have been running against each other, the Shipping Bill is now sacrificed to the Agricultural Holdings Bill, Considering the urgency of the case, considering that human life is at stake, considering that the shipping interest has now been for years in a state of uncertainty as to the legislation by which it might be affected, I think that that interest has some right to complain, not that the Bill is withdrawn, but that the arrangements of the Government have been such as to necessitate the withdrawal of it at this time.

Mr Eustace Smith rose and was received with cries of "Order."

Tho Speaker said that any further discussion on the subject would be in order on the motion which would be made later in the evening to withdraw the Bill.

Mr Plimsoll, who was standing at the bar, moved the adjournment ef the House.— (Uheers.) Having been accommodated with a place at the front bench below the gangway, by the courteey of a member who gave it up, Mr Plimsoll continued,—Sir, I earnestly entreat the right hon. gentleman at the head of the Government not to consign somo thousands of living human beings to a miserable death. I have no hesitation in saying, without for one moment charging the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade with anything like a breach of faith or trickery, that at an earlier period of the session he distinctly led me to believe that the Bill, the first thirty clauses of which were simply re-enactments, with the exception of one or two important matters, was thus drawn to afford up limited facility for hostile amendments. I adhere to that opinion ; I want the House to understand the position of the question. Since the commercial marine of this country was committed to the care of the Board of Trade, the whole matter has been getting worse and worse. With the aid of shipowners of murderous tendencies—("Oh !")—outs'de the House, and who are immediately represented in this Houbo, they have frustrated and defeated every effort to procure a remedy for this state of things.— (Cries of " Name !") I ask hon. members if they 'have seen in the papers a judgment of Lord Gifford on Saturday last resnecting the ship Bard of Avon. This ship was sold for L7BO, being of about an equal amount of tonnage, and having had LBOO spent upon her in repairs, was sold for L 1.500, which was her total value. Tho owners immediately entered into a contract which would give them on the first voyage the whole sum she had cost. I entreat you to consider it. I must speak out. The Secretary of Lloyd's tolls a friend of mine that he does not know a single ship that has been broken up voluntarily by the owners because she was worn out for thirty years. Ships pass from hand to hand until they are bought up by reckless speculators, and then they aro sent to sea with precious human lives. On the 3rd of this month I had a list carefully prepared, fafter immense labor, going through 5,000 vessels on Lloyd's Register. What do you suppose I found? No fewer than 2,654 ships had gone off their class and forfeited their position. Now what are the consequences that ensue ? Why, continually, every winter, hundreds and hundreds of brave men are pent to death, and their wives are made widows and their children are made fatherless so that a few speculative scoundrels (cheers), in whose hearts there is neither the love of God nor the fear of man, may make unhallowed gain.—(Cheers.) There are shipowners in this country of ours who never build a ship and who never buy a new one, but are simply what arc called "ship-knackers," and I heard an ex-Secretary of the Treasury, in the lobby, call one of my colleagues in this Houae a " ship-knacker." The Speaker : I must point out to the hon. member that his observations have reference to a Bill which is on the Order Book, and which is set down for consideration on another day. His observations would be quite in order "if made on a motion for the withdrawal of the Bill, but ho is not at liberty to discuss, on a motion for adjournment, any Bill whi'.-h is on the Orders of the House. —(Hear, hear.) Mi Plimsoll: Then, sir, I give notice of a question which I will put on Tuesday next to the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. _ [After naming four vessels which were lost with eighty-seven liven in 1874, and two others which were abandoned at sea, the hon. member proceeded :—J I shall ask whether the owner, Edward Bates, is the member for Plymouth or some other i ernon of the same name—(Hear, hear.) And, sir, I shall ask somo questions about members on this side of the House, too.—(Laughter.) I am determined (added tho hon. member in a loud voice, and raising his clenched fist) to unmask the villains who sent these sailors to death.

The Speaker: I presume that the hon. member does not apply that expression to a member of this House ?

Mr Plimsoll: I beg your pardon ? The Speaker: The hon. member made use of the word " villain." I hope he did not use it with reference to any member of this House ? Mr Plimsoll (in an excited tone, and advancing to the front of the table): I did, sir, and I don't mean to withdraw it. —(Loud cries of "Order.") The Speaker : The observation of tho hon. member is altogether unparliamentary, and I must again ask him whether he persists in using it.

Mr Plimsoll: And I must again decline to retract.—(Order, order.) ihe Speaker, Does the hon. member withdraw the expression ? Mr iTimsoll: No, he does not.—(Cries of "Withdraw.'") The Speaker: If the hen. member declines to withdraw it, I must leave the matter to the judgment of the House. Mr Plimsoll, who had meanwhile taken a seat on the front Opposition bench, again advanced to the front of the table, and, placing a writtm paper upon it. said,—l shall be very happy to submit to the judgment of the Houße, and this is my protest. The hon. member remained standing at the table for about a minute, amid cries of" Chair," and then resumed his seat, still manifesting great excitement.

, Mr Disraeli rose and said : Mr Speaker, I rise under a sense of deep pain, which must be shared by the whole House; for a brother member has conducted himself in a manner almost unparalleled. Mr Plimsoll: And so has the Government.

Mr Disraeli : I desire, as f«r as I can, to do that which will conduce to the dignity of the chair- (cheers)—and to the honor of this House> and of its members—(Cheers.) The conduct of the hon. member cannot bo passed unnoticed. It has bi-:en of the most violent and offensive kind.—(Hear, hear.) Although I do it with great reluctance, yet I feel that I am only expressing the stmse of the House when I suggest that this is an occasion on which you, sir, should exercise one of your highest duties. I move, sir, that you do reprimand the lion, member for Derby for his disovderlyand violeut conduct. -(Cheers.) _ The Speaker : In accordance with the practice of the House, the hon. member for Derby will be heard, and will then withdraw.

iVJr Plimsoil at onae left the Hou«e, two or three of his friends evidently trying to persuade him to offer an explanation. In passing the bar htt exclaimed, with much gesticulation, that he would " expose them."

The Speaker having put the question, The Marquis of Hartington said : I need I hardly say that, if necessary, I shall support tho motion which has beon made by the right hon. gentlemen.—(Hear, hear.) I rise, however, with great diffidence—feeling that I tin not sufficiently acquainted with the forms of the proceedings of the House—for the purpose of making a suggestion. It was quite evident that the hon. member for T.erby, in the observations he made, was laboring under feelings of very strong excitement- (cheers)—and although I cannot, as I am sure no one could, for a moment try to justify the language which hhas used, I cannot help thinking it would be very muoh for the advantage and dignity of our proceedings if action upon this matter were postponed for a short time —(cheers)—during which I have no doubt—at least, Ihj ive very gieat reason to hope—the hon. member will be induced to set himself right with the House. I heg, therefore, to suggest that, if possible, this dicoussion should bo adjourned for a few days. -(Cheers.) Mr Sullivan (who had just re-entered the House after having been absent with Mr Plimsoil) siid : The House has just witnessed a scene which I believe to be without precedent in the annals of the Assembly. As a friend ot the member for JJerby, and one who cam

to-day in concert with him to support his views upon the question to which he referred, I appeal to the House to be as considerate and indulgent towards him as, under the circumstances, it can be. —(H*ar.) I aui personally aware that tho hon. member is at this moment extremely ill.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not wish to go minutely iafco the matter, but, from having close intercourse with the hon. member during the last two days, I am clearly of opinion that, his mental excitement and his manifest agitation—the result of an over-strain, acting upon a very sensitive temperament—are such as to deserve some sympathy from this Assembly—[.hear, hear)—offended, and justly offended, as it is by the language which he has used, and which 1 do not for a moinout seek to justify #>r to palliate. T feel sure that if ray hon. friend could have a week's calm retirement he would himself be the first to regret what he has done, in so far as he has been guilty of a transgression against the good order and decorum of this House, and has fallen short of the duty which he owes to it.— (Hear, hear.) I hold in my hand, but will not use, some documents which have wrought him to the pitch we have seen to-day. I have not the remotest idea of making the case of the hon. member worse by going into matters which would hurt the susceptibility of any hou. members of this House, but I do say that the influence of those documents upon an eminently unsel6sh nature, and on one whose health has within the last few days caused uueaaint a to his friends, is what has led to the painful excitement and deplorable result we have witnessed.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not believe that even if he were brought to a scaffold the hon. member would retract what in calm judgment he has said, but with regard to the expressions he has used on the present occasion I feel sure that in a few days, if time be given him, he will set himself right with his colleagues of this House.—(Cheers.) Mr Disraeli: In the circumstances detailed by the hon. member who has just spoken, I think it would be best that the hon. member for Derby should not be required to .attend in his place till this day week. —(Hear, hear.) I beg, therefore to move that the debate be adjourned for a week.—(Cheers )

Mr Fawcett said that since bis hon. friend the member for Derby had withdrawn from the House he had had a conversation with him in the lobby, and found him in the condition described by his hon. friend the member for Louth—one of mental excitement to an extremely painful degree. Considering all the circumstances, nothing could be more kind or more consult the dignity of the House than the course suggested by the Prime Minister.— (Hear.) As he had said, he found his hon. friend in a state of great excitement, and after considerable difficulty persuaded him to take a walk in the open air. —(A laugh.) He felt sure that his hon. friend -although ho had no authority to speak in his name—would, after consulting with hi 3 friends, strongly as he felt upon the subject to which he had devoted himself, express regret for the languago he had used.—(Hear, hear.) Mr Bass, being well acquainted with the many excellent qualities of his hon. colleague, offered his grateful acknowledgments to the Prime Minister tor the considerate course he had suggested.—(Hear, hear.) The motion for the adjournment of the debate for a week was then put and carried.

It wonld be unjust to Mr Bates to omit the explanation he gave, at a subsequent period of the evening :

On the order for resuming the committee on the Merchant Snipping Bill, Mr Disraeli moved that the order be discharged. Mr Bates said he had to ask the indulgence of the House while he made some reference to the extraordinary and very distressing exhibition they had witnessed that afternoon.—(Hear, hear.) As to the statement made and the epithets used regarding himself by the hon. junior member for Derby, he forgave them, Anyone who witnessed the conduct of the hon. member would, he thought, wi'th him in believing that he was not responsible for his actionsorsayings.—(Hear.) too true that during the yenrs 1873. 1874, ;:r.d 1875 be had lost fivr ships. Four of'them V/eie coal-laden, one on hov homeward passage froi;i Calcutta, all of them wtrc iiou ships, and all classed Al. and he thought he might safely say as fine ships and as well found in every respectas ever went to sea —(Hear, hear.) These particulars he tnought it necessary lie should jave to hon. members. To himself the loss was in a pecuniary sense heavy, as it was well known that he never insured his ships to more than to half or two-thirds of their market value. — (Hear, hear.) But this did not give him a moment's thought. He did at the time, and still did, deplore the loss of his men—(hear, hear)—and the only consolation he had was the knowledge that so far as human foresight could go the ships were as safe and good as man could make them. —(Cheers.) He thought it was his duty to make this statement to the House. As for himself, he thought he might Bafely leave his character as a merchant and shipowner to the general public outside. He and his ships had been well known for a quarter of a century, and he was proud to think that no shipowner stood better with his underwriters than he did. The statement made by the junior member for Derby would to those by whom he was known, be looked upon, he felt assured, as he looked upon it—with pity.—(Hear, hear.) He thanked the House for allowing him to bring this matter forward, and eould only hope that hon. members would not think he had occupied their time improperly.- (Cheers.)