GENERAL ASSEMBLY

Evening Star, Issue 3591, 26 August 1874, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY

[By Telegraph.] Wellington, August 25. The Speaker announced that the Governor’s Salary Bill, passed last session, had received Her Majesty’s assent. Mr J. 1,. Gillies gave notice of motion that he would move for a return of how the million and a-lialf had been apportioned amouust tbe various Provinces as necessary concessions in order to carry out the Public Works policy. (dn the motion that the House so into committee on the report of the Honorarium Committee, Mr Reid opposed. He thought the general opinion was against the present allowance being increased. Mr Rolleston also opposed. In committee the essence of the report was that the committee thought it undesirable to increase the honorariums of the other branch of the Legislature, but that they should be subject to the same reductions as the other branch, aud that it was not necessary to disturb the allowances of the members of the Legislature residing within three miles of the Government buildings. These principles were embodied in six resolutions. The Premier proposed the first resolution, “ That members of the Assembly residing at more than three miles from the Assembly buildings should receive the actual fares by coach, railway, or steamboat once each way to and from their usual residence.” Agreed to without discussion.. Resolution three, “That all allowances except the actual fares before-mentioned should be paid for attendance during the sitting days of tbe session, and that a proportionate reduction be made for each sitting day du ing which the members are absent: provided >f during tbe session members are not absent more than three sitting days in all no deduction be made”— Mr Atkinson said the clause was most unfair ; that a member who came into the House, and then walked out immediately without doing any work, was treated the same as the member who displayed industry in the affairs of the country The Premier said they had this difficulty when they demanded the guinea par day for iien-atteudance—they found that in a hundred days’ session, with seventy sitting days, the members who never attended obtained thirty guineas for neglecting the business of the country. The Speaker said the great difficulty to contend with was to keep a record of the members’ attendance, and he thought the present usage was best. Mr J. O. Brown opposed the term, “allowance to members of the i ssembly.” He ob jected entirely to members of the Assembly being paid for attendance. They were a 1 rich men, and could afford to give their services without remuneration.

After a very great deal of discussion, and half a dozen different amendments, the clause finally passed, being amended so as to allow live days’ absence to hon. member 3, and in any deduction the five days to be allowed. Clause 4, that no deduction be made for ths absence of any member present in Welington, but absent through illness, was agreed to Clause 5, that no payment be made except upon the certificate of the Speaker of the Legislative Council, or of the House of Representatives. Agreed to. The Premier then introduced a resolution for granting equal allowances t« members in both branches of the Legislature ; —That after this year the allowances to members of the Assembly be regulated by Act; but that during this year the allowance shall be 150 guineas to all members of the Assembly residing beyond three miles from the place of meet a* of the Assembly, and IQQ guineas to all members of the Assembly residing within that distance. The Premier defended the principle of paying membt rs of both branches, so as to relieve them from rhe charge of being mere representatives of wealth. Mr Johnstone opposed, on the ground that the House was not justified, with such large taxation looming in the distance. Mr Fox objected, solely because he regarded it iu the light of payment, not from any fear that the country was precipitately running to ruin. Mr Stafford did not think thejhonorarium should be increased. Mr M ‘Glashau supported it. Mr Ormond said that the increase was not required, and would not be well received by the country; the present allowance was quite sufficient for all legitimate expenses. Mr Reader Wood opposed the increase. There was time enough to propose an increase when the House sat for four or five mouths. Mr J. E. Brown supported the motion. His experience was different from the member’s for Parnell. Mr White said he always supported the payment of members, and recognised the resolution as a step in that direction. Mr H'itzherberb believed greatly in the payment of members as the best means of effectively filling the House, and also maintained the other branch of the Legislature should be treated in common. He would s ipport the proposal, although in the light of remuneration he considered it inadequate. Mr Tribe believed the country at large would concur in the payment of members. He could point to many instances in the House where the honorarium left a positive loss, Mr Reid moved an amendment that the word fifty be struck out. Upon a division being taken, the amendment was negatived by 33 to 23. The resolutions were then agreed to. _ Resolution 6 : That none of (these provisions be applicable to or Chairman of Committees. Mr Fox : If you are doing this upon the principle that persons already in the receipt of public salaries should not receive a honorarium, why not include Provincial servants, many of whom receive very large salaries ? Messrs O’Conor and Reid explained that moat of the Provincial officers had to pay persons to do their work in their absence. The resolution was agreed to, and the whole reported and adapted. The Excise Duties Bill was read a first time. Mr Murray and Mr J. L. Gillies recorded their protest against the Bill. It would do away with Colonial Industrie for the mere purpose of increasing the revenue. '1 be House adjourned at 5.30. Upon the House resuming, Mr F,tzberbert moved las resolution for the dissolution of Parliament. He felt much disappointment that ho had not been able to apeak upon the abolition debate ; but he did bring down the present resolution merely with the object of making a speech. He wished the House to pause before taking another step upon the resolutions they sanctioned a few days ago. They had committed themselves to the resolution thai local self-government be abolished—(cries o ‘‘No, no”)—in the North Island, and, in lieu thereof, that machinery should be established) that the help of agents be made

use of. Such a fundamental proposal toi de* prive the people of the rights sanctioned under the Constitution Act was far too im•ortant to be finally dealt with without ascertaining voice of the people by att' appeal to the constituencies. It would net ie suffisient for individual members, upon returning home, to appeal to their consti* uents to confirm or not their action regarding the measure in Parliament. Simula aneous opinion of the people was featured* f roL«TtT n - by the House of what was proposed to le introduced in the place of the institutions about to be abolished. However great were the powers of the House there was s ill behind it a higher ultimate power,, which could make or unmake the House, and, whatever the Bill brought in it would not be worth the paper it was printed on if it was not in accordance with the wish f the people. To attempt smoh a political change without the consent of the people would be a great political blunder, and no good would come of it He wished the House to understand that the second danse did not quite < xpress his real meaning, and lie asked to add the following words ‘‘That any Bill or Bills, prepared to give effect to the resolution, shall be submitted to the House before the same shall be passed into law.” The Premier said if he wanted any confidence in bringing down his resolution, he could have found it in the feeble arguments used against the proposal when the bon. gentleman who just sat down tabled his resolution that the Parliament was not competent to deal with the question without occupying the degrading position of having the details placed before them. The House had a right to expect something, at least, from the hon. member wbicli would give them something to pondtr over when they went home. Instead of that, he confided himself to a few commonplace -generalities. It appeared that one most important feature, of the question was the powers of Parliament. He maintained that Parliament waa perfectly competent to deal with the question which had been opened up; otherwise they beeame reduced to the position of mere, delegates, with less power, absolutely than those of the members of an annual Parliament. The hon. gentleman read several extracts from authorities on Parliamentary procedure to shew that no constitutional question was of too great importance to bo dealt with. Amongst the instances cited was that of a Parliament elected for three years, prolonging its existence for seven years m order to save the country from anarchy aud rebellion. He read these lona extracts to enable them to finally set at rest • those devices ©f a minority to upset the deliberate opinion of the majority Tha hon. member had set himself up „ » person who had been always conscientious -as if he had never formed an opinion but what was . ight. He had also stated that the present Urhament had been returned wholly with the intention of advancing the public works and immigration scheme. If be recollected' aright, the hon. member was returned in too interest of grain-growers and those desirous of seeing their land laws reformed. The hon member for Port Chalmers had alsosst up the plea that * whatever is, is rieht •* and • V hV wf*T> fche ffiember P®opo«ed to abolish the Provinces in the Middle Island, It was absurd to say that the question introduced m the resolution was new, or had aot engaged the attention of hon. members for years and years. '1 he Premier enumerated the names of various members who, at different times, had expressed themselves itrongly against the maintenance of Provincialism. Another reason against this demand was, You might put as distinct a question to constituencies as you liked: it was almost an impossibility to obtain a direct answer. The West Coast or Nelson people would insist they wanted a road on a, petty plea ; in Canterbury they wanted a tax upon imported grain. He confessed that he had not expected such a large majority He would be sorry toimpute sordid motives to any member of the House, and hoped that he would not be deemed to attribute such S Ve^ wl ? eQ he remi,lded the House that, of the 16 who voted against the resolutions! there were 11 who were either Superintendents, members of Provincial Executives, or bpeakers of Provincial Councils ; and though with characteristic modesty, they claimed those who did not vote, they were still dependent m a great part upon their bitterest enenues for support. He had been reminded of bis Provincial sympathy, and ho was ready to admit that he had done his best to mam am the integrity of Provincial instituturns ; but the House could not say he had never given them warning that their race ?lfvJ earl 7 jo the North 7T .. do , ln ß 80 in 18?0 he told the House if it was found that Provincial institutions were inconsistent with the prosecution of public works, then so much the worse for Provincialism. In 1872 they had absolutely brought down a Bill to enable the Parliament to administer the affairs of those Provinces which were unable to administer them themselves. It was last year which fairly opened ms eyes to the obstruction they were getting from Provinces, when the Government made most reasonable proposals regarding the making over of some land. In connection with public w° r ks, the request was refused. Again with the first scheme they were met b ? a Bt ° r “ of indignation. He was accused of initiating the bureaucratic system of France m proposing a Resident Minister at Auckland, when it was absolutely something which had been practised in the Colony for years Strangely enough, the hon. member for belwyn, who brought the charge against mm, never thought he was carrying out the breach system when he was Resident Minister m Canterbury. He was told, too, that it ~® ve J?*?ent was breaking up their party, but the division list showed that only four of the old party had voted again- 1 them, the non. member explained how the Government were compiled, in eonsequenoe of the misrepresentation of their acts, to insert in their resolutions that they ?jL nofc IDtend dißturb compact of 1856, nor remove the seat of Government. Sm p“ r “ to ki ? f °l Md S z J j tbe Government intend to rob us of our land revenue;” and another, ‘‘Oh I fiiSsr KS 53ST -M that the Government 'intended S h6 Th!v ?fc f m !i Cil i ne ry * ithoß * replac? mg it. ihey intended to enlarge and make a substantial local form of them revenues instead of eleemosynary aid ° f the lan(J , fund in aid works. It was proposed, moreover, to establ districts capable of carrying on railways and other large works. It must be disanctiy understood that they had to look to the land revenue for the security of carrvmg on public Mforks They had‘recognised all along the necessity for making a landed estate ior the North Island. He thought as the North Island became populated the °u n , y T uld g h dl - v knd to acquire such and as could profitably be acquhS ™ thts island They were w a , the necessity for this change ? Let him Zt “ere for'uo OOO h OM ieta f*' p 0 " 1 ' 0 ' WO tko ,«„It at'tbe p!'e,e,t d ""“'r t wi t b “ snent at 11 tb,s . am , o,Ult only 16,500,000 were 1 500 OOOb^* 11 - 7 i^tended > th « other , mn 8 ‘ ,T be y did not undervalue the C IOD which might be aroused, and the struggle which would be aroused by inter* that V but be a deep conviction that the truth of toe idea would gradually

force its way into tbe minds of the people, and if it were put to them they would nobly and boldly affirm the principle advocated by the Government. Was it, he said, that when it was in the power of the Government, and they had the opportunity to confer upon the North Island property such athat enjoyed by tbe South, that they were hot to do so ? He was happy to think that, these proposals had been the means of cementing a strong party bound together by distinct ties which must preserve their power for a few years at leass, The Premier concluded by moving an amendment that all the words of the original resolution, commencing with “ organic change” to the end of the resolution be left eut, and the following substituted • —“The Provincial system of Government in the North Island should as soon as possible be followed by an inexpensive but more thorough form of local government under which these islands should be divided into districts and sub-districts, endowed wjth substantial revenues, and the residents therein be enabled to take a larger and more direct in the management of local affairs and the expenditure of local revenues than is at present the case.” Mr Stafford bad great pleasure in seconding an amendment which went in tbe direction of his sympathies for years and years, and which he and many other members had anxiously looked for. The hon. member for the JHutt had surprised him as much by what he did not say as by what he did. for he begged to remind the hon. member that, to use his own words, the hon. gentleman had acted more revolutionarily than the Premier, than it was passible to do with the present forms of the House. He insisted on withdrawing 10,000 of Her Majesty’s troops at a time when the country was at war. On the same principle, io past years, be was found advocating the taking away from Canterbury the county of Westland, and some time afterwards support'ng the establishment of the Timaru and Gladstone Beard of Works. These acts were just as decisive, and in the same direction which the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government now wanted the House to take. (Bear, and cries of‘“No.”) Well, if the localisation of revenues, endowment of local districts with local revenupa, giving them the management of their affairs, were not in the same direction as events alluded to, he was not able to discover the proper meaning of Words. He had never yet known the time when it was a time to effect any reform. With some people it would never be lime. He was. aware what an invidious aspect the measure had in not being universal; but, speaking for himself, he said fearlessly that be would have preferred that the House should have been asked to consider the value of its universal application. He did not pretend to believe for a moment that this was to bo final, it was only the beginning of the end. For his part be did not care how aeon the end came, and he believed the country would largely respond, and say that they would not only accept, but wished it went a great deal further. ' Many of the- minority voted against it because it was not a universal measure. What would be the position of the minority, and what would be its chances of cohesion if after a short time it should be proposed to go the whole length and make the change a universal one ? Tbe Premier had nothing to fear if he went to the country to-morrow. There woa'd be a great fight in some of the capital towns of the Provinces. There was a large bread-and-butter interest in question, which would be very hard indeed to cope with, and the sooner they recognised the work they would have to encounter the better. Let them all do their best for the public good. This was a time when the be>t men in the country must do their best for it j and if they would not do so, then he would say—“ God help the country!” Mr Fitzberbert congratulated the member for Timaru upon his consistency—his hostility to Provincial institutions. The hon. gentleman answered at considerable length the principal points in the Premier’s speech. He denied that the quotations read by the Hen. the Premier were in any way applicable to the present case. Mr Fox said it seemed unreasonable and inadmissible to relegate the question of a new Parliament to men who did not know their trade, as it wore, as against those who had served several years. He maintained there would be no such great struggle as that. He apprehended there would be no struggle outside Auckland city. The Thames would not object; the Waikato would not object, nor the outdistricts, nor would Taranaki or Hawke’s Bay oppose the resolution. He was certain that, beyond a few people on Wellington beach, there would be no opposition. The hon. gentleman ran rapidly over the history of Provincialism since its foundation to show that it had become now useless. The first real blow at the Provinces was the Native war, when, from 1860 to 1870, colonisation was at a standstill. Tho next cause was the of the Native Land Act; next, the decision that the Provinces should cease to borrow ; and lastly, the immigration and public, works. When the time had come that the struggle would nq longer continue when the Provinces eould be no longer of ytjlity, it was tijne for every man, regardless of charges of tergiversation or inconsistency, to set his face in the right diroct*®®- They might call him inconsistent. He gloried in it when, by changes in the circumstances of the consistency, it became necessary. They had been told this was a great revelation; but every reform was not a' revolution. The mere alteration or extension of tho machinery of the Government need create no alarm. Thera was equal or greater revolution without the people being •onsultcd when the constitution was given to the Colony, but New Zealand did not fly into a thousand fragments. He appreciated the Provincial Governments and what they had done, but they were effete. There would certainly not be less, but more local knowledge and action under the institution of District or Hoad Boards. The localisation of Government would be greater and more intense than ever it had been under the ProTincial system. Mr T. L. Shepherd justified himself m the eyes of ms constituents by explaining that he could not possibly vote for a continuance of the system which was obliged to be kept m existence by the borrowed money of the whole Colony. Mr White wanted t© know where the substantial revenues referred to in the Premier’s amendment were to come from. Mr Johnston would vote for tbe amendment, just because the Premier introduced that provision into his amendment. Before, bis resolutions were purely destructive, now, however, he could see indications of re’ placing that which he was pulling down. Mr Rolloston said- the reason he had refrained from taking part ia the debate was be'eause ill the speakers had avoided the real questions at issue, and amongst these were the redistribution of representations, the incidence of taxation, and personal Government in the House, and' against the latter the country would umniaiakeably express its opinion. He ventured to predict that the voice of tho people would not be as was expected. A division was called for upon the original motion, and was negatived bv 45 against 19. 1 The resolution as amended by the Premier was then made a substantive motion on the voices. Mr Swanson moved the addition of the following wo*dsAnd (hat a Bill to give

effect to these resolutions be circulated at least two months before the meeting of Parliament.” A division was called for with the following result: For the amendment, 21; against, 40.

The House adjourned at 1.45 a,m. In the Legislative Council, The Hon. Major Richardson’s motion on the Government appointment of a committee to consider the salaries of Council officers was carried. The Hou. Capt. Fraser, in moving for information as to what steps the Government would take towards introducing in thegaols of the Colony the reformatory system at present ia force in the gaols of Europe and America, urged the establishment of two central penal'depßts, one in each island—for the South in Lyttelton Harbor, for the North on Soames’s Island, Wellington. The Hon, Dr Pollen said that next session the Government would bring down a definite proposal to establish such institutions. .