GENERAL ASSEMBLY

Evening Star, Issue 3585, 19 August 1874, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY

[Br Telegraph.]

Wellington, August 18. Mr Thomson resumed the debate in the House of Representatives yesterday. He maintained that the impecunioaity of the Northern Province was solely due to the way the Primer had dealt with the capitation tax, but be had not yet told the House whether he had the Governor's sanction for s dissjlution.—(Hear.) The Provinci s were tempted to support the Government for fear they might withhold what was necessary, and se much required. A better plan than abolition would be to grant to the poorer Provinces an additional share of the Customs revenue. The arguments of tha Premier were scarcely worth the paper they were printed on. Was not the money spent in the North Island borrowed money? As far as Otago was concerned, it carried oh the work of colonisation from its legitimate resources, independently of the General Goverhmsnt. If the Superintendent of Wellington was a thorn in the flesh of the General Governrnent, that was no reason to abolish the Provinces At th' best this was an experiment, and was r* - iture, 1 n consequence of the great wo r Colony was now engaged in, a d'Stu* ;ation should be avoided, for the la was certainly not so urgent; application for a dissolution- stpone the matter till the next ser ive their constituents an opportu. aider the whole question calmly, t proper the Government initiating on involving their owa downfall, j. -vemment were endangering their own poucy, aud at the same time drawing a herring across the scent, and diverting attention from the issue. Although not in the same boat with the Premier, he was sorry for him. The whole work devolved upon his shoulders, he received no assistance from his colleagues, and really there should be a reconstruction.—MrG. B. Parker called attention to a point of order. Was it right that the hon. member should read his speech ?-(Hear.)—The Speaker said the hon. member was merely looking at his notes.—Mr Thomson said it was better to take a little note and express an opinion than always to remain silent in the House Why had not the House been informed of the intention, either in the Governor’s speech or in the Financial Statement? Here they were discussing a question solely due to the Premier s temper and the stormy eloquence of the hon. member for the Mutt He supported the previous question.— A long pause ensued.—Mr J. L. Gillies co nmented upon the unusual tardiness of the Government supporters in following members of the Opposition. They seemed still to rely solely upon their strong majority. 'I hat was a confession of weakness. Notwithstanding the Premier’s expression that he approached the question as involving grave responsibility, it appeared he had been pitchforked before the Homje on the spur of the moment; and if the Premier complained of the disadvantage he 1 ibored under, still greater was the disadvautageous position of members of the House iu being asked to d al with such a question, apparently begotten of an ebullition of temper, in consequence of the oppositioa to the word features of the Forests Bill. It was outrageous to common sense to attempt to make members believe this question concerned only the North Island, \ears ago, upon the intrpdqctioq of the public works policy, he for one said that sooner or later Provincial Institutions must give way. He referred to the Premier’s statement last year, when he said he Lad found an equilibrium, aud gave his opinion that if the Provinces were abolished it would lead to ten months’ sessions. As few members in that House could spare so much time, the practical effect would be to throw the government of the country into the selfish hands of large capitalists. Last year the Premier had told them that the State coach was being overdriven, and that the country must rest; yet this session they gave him authority to borrow L 4,000,000 iu four years, and now a great organic change was proposed. Truly this was a strange way of resting. Then take the work done for the money : he boldly maintained that in every respect the Provincial Government work wascheaperaud btt'.er. lake the figures of Otago; in spending L 579.000 on works, it paid only L 3.950 for departmental expenditure, while the General Government spent L 106.000. and their departmental expense was L 6,80- He boldly challenged comparisons. As for their land revenue b*ing their source of wealth, tiiey could have the Otago land revenue if they gave them their Customs revenue. He denied that there was any feverish desire to get rid of their land ; in fact the greatest advocate of that course was the present Commissioner of Customs, who constantly, when m the Provincial Council, told them that the needs of the General Government were so great that they must some day dispossess Otago of her lauds. What would be the ettect of abolishing the North Island Provinces? I he Government would have the strong concentrated power of the whole of v? S -a N ? r *“ Island as compared with the ivirted power and representation of the ' outh Island. Why. they would be told again, as they had been told before, that the needs of the Province must give way to the needs of the Colony, notwithstanding the repeated promises of the Premier that the mnd revenue would not be interfered with. 40 fctfped {’rewjey and the Mwfctrjr,

would bo satisfied with having ventilated the question brought in so hurriedly, and allow it to go before the country without re* signing their seats, and not ask them to pledge themselves to the hybrid scheme which he nad submitted to the House. For the very reason that he looked forward to * l)0 ! ltl0 J a of *ke Provinces in a very few LJJnf! 18 held 6 P re Bent p*»pt»al to be and P^matura.—Mr Maoan* drew said there was an apparent indisposi* S«f t °rK ak *fc U * ° n the of the Govern* ment and their supporters, and he was not prepared to speak till he had heard more arguments on the other side.—Mr T B aillies seconded, and Messrs M'Lean, O’Coner and Wilson opposed the adjournment.— Takamoana objected to the Superintendents of the North Island being done away with without the Superintendents of the South also. It would perhaps be better to have two Parliaments—one to make money and the other to dispute with the Maoris. As long as there was only one House troubles would not cease, unless when the Maoris d j ed For the last five years the affairs of the House had not been satisfactory to fii° a *~-K.atene said anything the Maori mem* bers in the Cabinet had assented to had net been productive of evil to the Maoris. Ho thoroughly approved ©f doing away with these Provinces. He had heard this was tho only Colony where two forms of Government existed, and it was net right that two should eat the flesh of New Zealand. He was not told that two Governments were bad. He knew it by experience. Where did all the money raised in this island go to? Those who gamed nothing from the existence .of the Provinces were not the ones who opposed the resolutions.—Mr Reid thought that, even if the Government possessed the voting powers to carry this resolution, they ought to give ™ House their reasons for doing so. Why ask them to commit themselves to a barren resolution that was to have no effect till next session ? 'J he hon. gentleman reiterated the argument that the resolution was brought down m a petulant spirit, and without the slightest need. •He believed that in three y ear f the Provinces of the North Island would be able to show a larger revenue than the Colonial Government, and, had they had tbe spending of the large sums the Treasurer complained of, they would have spent it to advantage. All this went to show chat local machinery was more economical than the Colonial Government. He could see how all the evils, and more than aIL _ wer ® attributed to the Provinces would be reproduced in what would be substituted. He had no objection to County and Road Boards, but he con* tended that they could not be managed without a central Boaid, having the control over the surrounding ones. Call it by what name they liked, it would still be practically the same as toe Provincial Government. Why quibble about names? If they did introduce the new system proposed, he would predict the result would be utter failure—chat the mere departmental expenditure would be doubled. His' greatest objection to the piopqsql was the enormous power it plaeed in the hands of the General Government. If they carried this resolution, they would pave the way for the discontented members in the South Island to join hands with tLoje of the North, and destroy all balance of power. He had so much faith in. the patriotism of the people of tbe North Gland that he did hot think thqy would allow themselves to‘be ruled by 'resident agents, under secretaries, and engineers. If they voted for this resolution, they would be bound to vote for the Bill when introduced. He had no objection to ordinary expetiments in legislation, but let them not experiment on the sacred Constitution. It would seriously affect their credit in the English market. The hon. member quoted at some length from a speech delivered by Mr Vogel in 1868, in defence of the Constitution and the Provinces. He would vote for tho previous question.—On the motion of Mr Macaudrew, the debate was adjourned at 11.30 plm. i • * ■ i At to-day’s sitting, Mr Macaudrew did not know that he Cjuld say‘much that was new‘on tbe subject, but he would not be justified iu being silent on so important a question. It wanted grave forethought and cousideratiou, but he was afraid it had not received that, or it would have been mentioned iu his Excel* lency’s speech. Of all the reasons that were urged against the Government proposals, the strongest was that it aimed at the root of local self -government, and, to be successful, it must be in tbe hands of persons accessible to the people. Experience showed that the departmental expenditure of the Government was assuming an alarming magnitude, as compared with our means and requirements. Others would oppose it because it would soon lead to the - Colony having a common purse, and next to thh obliteration of the compact of 1856. For all these reasons he opposed it. He clearly saw it led to unspeakable spoliation. Hon. members must be very verdant to suppose that any legislation could make the Middle Island land fund more secure than it was now. Pass this resolution, and they must soon look for their landed revenue being swept into the maelstrom and vortex of Colonial finance. He and all his fellowmembers were in that House solely to protect their landed estate. ; The apple of their eye it was to them, and if they did not resist this insidious attempt they would be betrayihg the interests of their constituents. He could' not see how the Southern members could allow themselves to be led likh lambs to the slaughter. Why introduce the measure at all, When it vjras pqt demaudeh-r when, in fact, it really amounted to nipping m the bud the dawning self-reliance of the orth Island after the exhaustion of wart They had heard of the ferocious blue-gum oi the C lony, but could they not liken the Colonial Government to the upas tree, that deadly and pestiferous plant beneath whose shade life dies and death lives ? That was its relation to the Provinces. Why humiliate the North Island iu this manner, by educating them to sponge on their neighbors | Where were the petitions from the people in favor of this measure ? If the North Island was becoming effete, it was because of the General Government alone. They asked them to build, and gave then no straw to make bricks ; aud, because they failed, they said, “Then we will abolish you.” Had the hon. gentleman come down with a measure to clip the wings of the General Government in the North island, that would have been a statesmanlike proposal; but that would yet be demanded by the people in a voice of thunder. When the ten millions borrowed shall have been spent, leaving us, as all knew they would leave us, with only five millions of actual value, it would then be touud that tbe Provinces would have been the best machinery to spend that money. He cautioned some members pot to tip blinded by the proposal. If they oid, they would hud out, when too late, that there was no safety or protection against the neediness or caprice of the Government of the day.— (An. plause.) Mr Reynolds said no one had vet shown any good reason why the resolution should not be agreed to, except perhaps the hon member for Port Chalmers, and he could not be said to give a disinter* ested opinion. It was untrue to say the ?^ po ? ai , Yr . aa n ® w * because it had been . ou ßbt before tho House on various ooca* sums from 1863 to 1872. The hon. gentle* man quoted from the records of the House, also from the speech of the hon. member for ■Port Chalmers, in favor of abolishing all the Provinces of the Middle Island. Mr Reynolds thep quoted from Mr Fox at the faipe tiv<^

in replying to the hen. member for Port Chalmers, to show that, though the proposals were then inopportune, a few more years must decide the necessity of the consolidation of the Province*. He also quoted from the speeches of several other members of the House who spoke at different tim< S in favor of the abolition of the Provinces, including the member for Auckland City West, the member for Bruce, and the member for Waitaki, The hon. member for the Taieri asked why they had introduced the proposal. He would tell him that consideration of the wants of the Provinces had forced it upon them —that and the dissatisfaction they had expressed at the Financial Statement, and its previsions. The hon. member for Port Chalmers said that, to protect their land fund, they were prepared to sacrifice all minor considerations. Well, he could assure the Hon. member that the Government were prepared to give all security possible to satisfy them on that point. They would go so far as to pass an Act to secure that land to them, with a proviso that if at any time the Honse desired to repeal it, it must be done by appeal to Her Majesty in Council. As regarded the other points of the Opposition speeches, it was not necessary to detain the House, the arguments were so light and superficial. —Mr Montgomery opposed the resolution as taking the South by surprise, without being shadowed forth in some alight way. The people were absolutely stunned. He could speak of the Timarn Road Board system. It received money from another body, and was merely a distributing body. It could neither raise taxes nor levj rates, and was a most miserable approach tolocal self-government. When some North Island members voted for the resolution, it was under the impression that they wonld be enabled to defray the expenses of local government out of Colonial money, without taxing themselves. The Middle Is'and land fund did net want protection j it was a right as sacred as any other property they owned. He knew quite well that Provincial institutions must pass away eventually, but they would retain them while they were useful He would Vote for the previous question.—Mr Steward said his constituents were more directly interested in this question than any other, and, if in voting he found be opposed their wisbts, he would allow them to send some one else. The country was not taken by surprise. He had been a Colonist for thirteen years, and the question had been constantly under discussion. He was firmly convinced that, if the public voice was ascertained, it would he found to declare almost unanimously in favor of the resolutions The position and history of New Zealand reminded him of the Siamese twins, when the doctors discussed about severing the attaching ligament, and whose opinion was against doing so because it would he fatal to both. That was the case with the separation question. Now, one of the brothers was suffering from a broken and useless limb, and the eld cry was raised that to cure it wonld injure the other brother. That was the present position of the Colony. They proposed to cure the diseased limb—the North Island. No doubt it would givp some pain and temporary inconvenience to the sound brother, but it was imperatively necessary the care should be effected. The Government were asked, why bring dowr terpen resolutions that might not hear furit ? Why not bripg down a Bill at onre ? Why,' if they had done so, hon. members would have found in that still greater cause of objection. He declined to accept as one iota of proof the figures adduced by the hon. member for the Taieri. He denied that there could rot be better local machinery than Provincialism, and the reason he voted for the resolution was because he thought better could be made ; but if a Bill were brought dowp and it did pot come pp to his ideas of the real he would vote against it. The hon. member said the Government should go to the country The proper course' |or any member who had doubts upon the point was to consult his constituents, and if he opposed their wishes, then let him inake rooin for someone more in accord with their ideas. The North Island Provinces were like the tree the husbandman could not make flourish ; they had been constantly asked to cut it down, but the Honse had been like a good husbandman, who had digged about its roots and manured it year after year, hut it put forth no leaves—it withered—it was dead—it was mere firewood, only fit to burn. "When the time came as to the kind of tree to put in its place, he would give bis opinion as to that.—Mr Sheehan said everybody who conld express an opinion should do so. Before giving his opinion, he felt bound to inform the House, as far as his experience went of the gentleman at the head of the Government, he had shown the utmost desire to meet and provide for the circumstances of Auckland, even up till the moment of his bringing down the resolutions. The hon. member then proceeded to prove that the resolution was brought down solely out of ruffled temper, on account of the opposition of tlm member from the Hutt. Why, this was the worst form of personal Government, and no doubt this Government was eminently personal. The Premier was the head and front: he was the sun, the rest merely revolving planets. What he willed must be done. Surely in such a state of things they ought to establish a Medical Department, because the'ffiost awful consequences to the country might ensue if the hon. gentleman happened 'to have the nightmare, or'his stomach was out of order. Some terrible and fuinods scheme might be the result some fire morning, "after a night’s rest. The hon: mepiopr proceeded to fihp'w how the political history of the Premier had always been identified with Provincialism, referring to the declaration of the hon. member of the large sacrifices he had mads. The House could estimate these when he told them that fourteen days ago he had been shown a card with forty eight members marked, who we«e pledged to vot? for the resolution. If the resolution had gone for tbs establishment of ' large Provinces, he could go with it. If they had sought to join Taranaki to Auckland, and Hawke’s Bay to Wellington, he could approve of that as something likely to redeem Provincialism from the opprobrium it was now under. He denied that the Provinces of the North Island offered any obstruction to the carrying put of the public works policy.' He could say it was not Auckland; it could not be Taranaki ; it wight not to he Hawke’s Bay, the Superintendent of which was the Government agent, and both of which received a disproportionate share of the public money. The Premier said nothing conld be dene with the Provinces without Superintendents, yet the Premier’s speech was filled with Superintendents, the chief of whom was a Superintendent amongst the Southern members. In reference to the compact of IBsfij he thought that ought to have had no connection with t]ie abolition. An hon. member had spoken of the North sponging on the South. He denied that that was the case, and made hold to say that the day would come when the North would he able to make use of her magnificent landed (state now locked up. She would freely open her purse to meet the needs of her Southern sister, and do it, he hoped, without making any of those insinuations disfiguring the debate.

The debate was adjourned at 5.30 p.m. Mr T. L. Shepherd asked the Premier whether the Government would cause a case to he submitted to the decision of the Supreme Court as to the right of miners to foul rivers ahd streams under thi existing Goldfields Act. Mr Glassford had entered a 9m for damage of tltfW against soma

miners. If some legal provision was made for the protection of miners, it would be necessary for the House to legislate npon it. The Premier said the Government could not do what was proposed, but, if any two liti • gants would agree to state a case for the Supreme Court, the Government would have it argued with the object of determining the rights of the respective parties. In the I. egislative Council, The Lyttelton Gas Bill was read a third time, and pa sed. In reply to the Hon. Mr Holmes’s question, whether the Government intended to appoint a Surveyor-General, the Colonial Secretary said that it had not yet been de cided whether a competent officer for each island should be appointed to carry out the survey for which 15,000 has been vot d, or whether the same would he entrusted to the Surveyor • General for the whole Colony. The second reading of the New Zealand Forests Bill was moved by (he Colonial Secretary.— Mr Waterhouse objected to the Council being call d upon to sanction such an illusion as that by this Bill the Colonial debt might he wiped off.—The Hon. Mr Holmes thought the Bill highly desirable. He calculated the benefit to the Colony, irrespec ive of its mercantile success. The Hon. Mr Mantell thought it was a futile attempt on the part of the Government to do what was beyond their functions, and only he a success in providing billets for adherents.—Captain Fraser was pleased with the Bill, and would have been more so had it come before them in its entirely.—The Hon Mr Buckley supported the Bill, regretting it did not go far enough.—'lhe Hon. Mr Menzies opposed the Bill, as he thought the forests could not be conserved by any action taken by the Government.—Tbe Hon Mr Bohin son spoke in favor of the measure, knowing by experience the advantage of forestplanting.—The Hon. Mr Bonar thought the objects of the Bill highly desirable, and gave t his cordial support —Mr Williams also supported, the measure.—The motion was carried on the voices, and the Bill ordered to be read a socond time.