PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Evening Star, Issue 3513, 27 May 1874, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, May 26. The debate on Mr Ireland’s motion re Bible reading in schools, was continued by the Hon. Dr Mknzies, who said if the Bible were banished from the schools the desires of four-fifths of the inhabitants of the Province would be ignored. Mr M'Lean hoped from the schools. There was no attempt to expound the Scriptures iu the schools at the present time; and as any parent was at liberty to remove his child from school during Bible reading, there was very little to complain of. The motion cams from one section of the religious community—had come and would always come from the same source. The Provincial Solicitor asked if there was a general desire that the Bible should not be read, why should the Council compel its reading ? If the State were to take charge of the religious teaching of the young, was its duty to end with the reading of the Bible? It could not end there, but there must be a State Church. : The'matter should be left with the people to decide, and where there was a difference of opinion he thought the majority would give way to the minority rather than shock their feelings in auy way. He had yet to learn that the btate, as a State, had any religion or creed: at all. He considered the motion an anti-: Christian one. If the Province were polled to morrow, there would be a desire to lekve the matter to the Committees subject to the restrictions of the Education Board, and he could not see why the Council should not leave them that option. An amendment, “That the reading of the Bible should be discontinued in the public schools,” was moved by Mr Lumsdkn, supported by Mr Hallenstein, opposed by .Mr Gumming, supported by Mr Fish, who was of opinion that the education should bo secular, but reading the Bible without explanation was a; gigantic farce, and opposed by the Hon, W. H. Reynolds, who agreed that it was not the: duty of the State to teach religibii in our. public schools, but at the same time he altogether denied that there was any teaching of religion under the present system; and by Mr M‘Clashan, who, as a secularist, could have agreed with the amendment if there had : been any pressure on the Council to take such a step; and by the Provincial Secrktarv who had no strong feeling at all for the Bible being read iu the schools; and if there were any wide-spread feeling of dissatisfaction, he would at once support the amendment. But the question was one of expediency- what would be desired by the' majority of the inhabitants of the Province. In nis opinion it would be a most impolitic step to pass the resolution. The Ordinance certainly said that the Bible should be read ’ but it did not state that -the teacher should read it. There were a large body of persons m tlm Province whose feelings would be outraged if it were determined not to read the Bible m the schools at all. IJ e thought that if they began to legislate on these matters their hands would soon be full, and he failed to see that the consciences of any could be hurt by the law at present in existance. ihe outcome of the argument of the honorable member who had moved the motion was that a denominational system should bo adopted—(No)— and he considered that they were calculated to reduce the s:andard of education. Whatever sense of injury now existed would not be removed by the carrymg of the motion. After further discussion, l . MSDliN ’ s amendment was then put to the voce, and lost on a division by 20 votes against 16. The following is the division list : Ayes, 16—Messrs Bastings, Brown J. C„ Browne G. E G Clarke R, Daniel, Fish (teller), Green, Hallenstein, Haslefct, Ireland an<l I Stoufc LUin3den> M ‘ KeUar * 01iver > Noes, 20-Messrs Allan, Clark H. (teller), Cumnimg DeLatour Henderson, Meuzies (tel er), Molhson, M'Demid, M‘Glaslmn, M Keazie, M Lean, M‘Neil, Reid, Reynolds bumpter, Turnbull, Wilson, Mr Mackkllar moved, as a further amendThat in the opinion of this Council, the 40th septioa of the Education Ordinance, 1«74, should be amended so as to abolish the compulsory reading of the Bible in schools,

power being given to School Committees, whh the sanction of the Board, to allow clergymen of any denomination to use the various schoolrooms for the purpose of imparting religious education at such stated times, and under such regulations, as may be im osed by the Board”—but a ter wards withdrew it, and the remaining words of the original motion were then negatived on the voices. At the evening sitting, Mr Fish moved A’hat whereas the establishment of Grammar Schools in various parts of the Province renders it unnecessary that the Dunedin High School for Boys should be continued at the public expeuse; And whereas the maintenance of the sal-1 school at the expense of the State involves an expenditure for which there is no adequate return, and prevents the establishment in Dunedin of one or more proprietary schools of a class quite equal to the High School—which there is good reason to believe would otherwise be established :It is therefore resolved—lst, That the High School for Boys be discontinued, and that adequate compensation be paid to the teachers for loss of office. 2nd. That the Hnffi School buildings be applied to such other purpose as the Government shall deem fit. 3rd. That the Rector’s residence be, either sold or leased to any individual or proprietary desirous of establishing a high-class school for boys upon a suitable scale. 4th. That one of the Distr ct Schools be raised to the rank of a Grammar School in terms of hhe Grammar Schools Ordinance, and a portion of the expenditure heretofore appropriated to the High School be applied to this purpose. sth. That a respectful Address be transmitted to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting that he may be pleased to give effect to the foregoing resolutions.

He laid down the following propositions : First, the cost of the High School was out of all proportion to the public gain by it. Second, it was a class institution; that it was not there for the purpose of preparing boys for the University. Third, the Grammar Schools would be able to prepare boys at a loss cost. Fourth, if any education went beyond what could be obtained at the Grammar Schools, ib would be bettor provided for by proprietary schools; Fifth, it was unfair to the people as a whole to tax them to support this school. Sixth, the duty of the State began and ended in providing elementary and Grammar Schools. Seventh, the maintenance of this school at present was unfair to the country settlers, who could not participate in its advantages. With regard to the cost, he might state that the cost to the State per head on all boys at the High' School, for the last five years, was L 24 3s same period of boys attending the District Schools was 13 Os 74d. Then the system of education at the High School must be looked yt. They were for the most part crammed with information that was of little use to them in the careers they followed in after life. Their English education was neglected, and one master—-a good authority—had stated that some boys who came under his charge after leaving the High School were deficient in grammar and arithmetic. The High School did not give a classical education, and prepare boys for the University, therefore, there was no reason that it should be retained. The large bulk of boys who used the school simply went there to get an education that would fit them for a commercial career, aod this could be got better In ohe manner indicated in the resolution. Many boys were sent there simply because it was the High School, while they could learn the particular brandies they desired much better at the district or private schools. The Grammar Schools were better able to prepare boys for the University, and at a less cost. .The High School was simply a Grammar School, conducted in a most expensive minner. If a higher class of education than that given at the Grammer Schools was wanted, it could be better given,at tin omnrietarv ach' , " lß » and he did not think he need say much in support of this. >5 He believed a school would soon be opened here that would take a position above the High school, and where a better education would he imparted at a cost of L 8 a-year than was obtained now for L 25. He did not go in for denominational education by the State ; but with respect to private schools he did not see any objection to it, and did not see how it could, foster a denominational system of State education. In Melbourne there were the Scotch College, the Church of England Grammar School, and others that were not to be equalled in the Southern Hemisphere, and in Melbourne there was none .of the State monopoly he now complained of. At the present time there was no healthy opposition, and that was what we very much wanted. The continuance of the High School, under the present system, was unfair to the country settlers, who were unable to make use of it. Ihe evidence taken before the Commission proved that there were many boys in the High School who should be in the District Schools, and that if the standard of entrance examination were raised, a number of boys who would go there would go to the District Schools. Cue of the District schoolmasters stated before the Commission that too many boys left his school before they had reached the highest classes, for the purpose of going to the High School. The opinions of men well qualified to give opinions went to show that there were numbers of boys in the High School who should be in the common schools. Another opinion had been given to the effect that.: the entrance examination should be made higher in order to provide that the boys should bo better up in the elementary branches. By having the entrance examination as low as at present the High School was brought into competition with the District Schools. If the entrance examination was made higher, the number of pupils would be decreased, and the cost per head consequently increased. The very recommendations of the Commission showed that the school had not been used for the purpose for which it was intended. The present monopoly kept out proprietary schools, and the High School should by all means be abolished. In our present educational system too much attention was paid to classical education, while a good, sound English commercial education was This did not meet the wants of the bulk of the community, and was grievous waste of the time of the pupils. We were wandering far beyond the limits adopted in the old country. In the examinations, the marks given for classics were out of proportion to those given for English and other subjects, and differed in this respect from the system adopted in England. It was a condition before boys could compete for the Bichardson Scholarship, that they should have attended one of the Provincial Schools

and the High School for a certain length of time, and this was radically wrong. 'lhe Provincial Solicitor pointed out that the motion was self-contradictory 1 here were two distinct questions before the Council. Should the State interfere in higner education ; and should the present management of the High School be continned? The hon. member asserted that the State should not interfere with higher eduand then asked for tiie establishment of a Grammar School. If the State interfered with education at all, ie could not stop at the “three P’s,” and unless this were done it would be better not to interfere with education at all. Leaving the question of bta - e C l “ fcer l f f re , uce > he then tested the usefulness of the High .school. The test was not tiie number of boys that were turned out from the school, ihe influence of such a school upon the whole social life of the people must be ponndered. Qtagq would never be hble e prqdupe a scholar until she had several nigh schools, and until the people looked up

to the higher education. It was impossible for anyone to see the higher effects of higher eduction in the Province, as it was impos--B l c i l ‘ e ’ thl ff rl - v l°rty years ago, to foresee the effect of railways and telegraphs. If all our citizens were cultured men, who could loo* at all subjects from a broad point of w° u lo not the Province be againer? If the &tate were to stop at the higher cduca* fciou, the University must perish, and the Grammar Schools follow. What is ordinarily termed a commercial education might be given to a boy, who might not have had his iva ouing powers exorcised at all. To be consistent, the honorable member should simply move that the High School should be abolished. But before we couli have a High School, or a good Grammar School, we must have a number of other schools to lead up to them. In Victoria, a commission that sat on the education question recommended that higher schools should be provided, and that exhibitions to these schools should bo granted annually to the pupils at the District Schools. The foes at the higher schools alluded to in Melbourne were more than double those of our High School. The Scotch College in Melbourne had been endowed with land aad the Grammar School was supported by the Church at the time when the Church was assisted by the State. The s' artineof preparatory schools was the starting of denominational schools. In dealing with this matter it was impossible to apply figures to schools, their effects being generally so long after. The only test was to look at the fact, and see what had been the effect of introducing higher education among the people. The question of the management of the High School should not have been introduced with the matter they were then discussing. If there had been some Board of Advice to look into the internal working*©! the school, we should not have heard so many complaints. The Rector had attempted to popularise the High School and had neglected the classics, and this bad led to complaints. With respeot to the higher education there was a terrible amount of drudgery, and every schoolmaster must make bis pupils go through this drudgery, The effect of the resolution would be to say that the State should not interfere with higher education, and this would be a principle that had never been affirmed anywhere else, but one that was left to Otago to find out The Hon. Mr Keykolds admitted the High School had not been successful, but that was all the more reason an endeavor should be made to make it more efficient. If the standard of the entrance examination were raised, there would be fewer complaints, and in place of a decrease in the number of pupils there would be a large increase. One great cause of the non-success of the High School was the continual harping with reference to the management by certain individuals. Mr M ‘Glashan questioned the statement that the proprietary schools could educate more boys cheaply than the High School. In his opinion Mr Fish had done the High >choql more harm than any other man in the Province. Mr De Latour said that if the argument in favor of the High School was carried to its legitimate conclusion, every Grammar School should be elevated to the status of a High School. They were not prepared to do that, nor was it. desirable. If the High School was to be maintained, the high boarding rate charged for boys from the country should be at once reduced. Higher education had not been attacked in the discussion. The great objection to the education offered in the Colony was the raising up of a large number of young men only fit for filling billets of clerks, at a salary of 1,50 or LIOO a year, while no facilities were offered to young men to acquire knowledge which would be useful to them iu following any trade. The Provincial '-eoretary believed if the High School were abolished, and one of the District Schools raised to the position of a Grammar School, they would not be able to provide their boys with an education equal to what they got at present. No wonder the High School was not a success, when it was made the subject of such discussions as had just taken place, and as had taken place last session, and when at meetmgs of constituents—as in Dunedin—the grossest and lowest passions of certain classes of the community were pandered to, in order fc ° Sf? U P a class feeling against this institution. The Grammar Schools referred to by Mr Fish were not really f u \. filling their functions, but were actually District Schools. A few of the pupils might be receiving a high-class education, but only a few, owing to the fact that not many parents could afford to give their children a high class education. He would be sorry to see the aid at present given to the High ocheol withdrawn, and would be very willing to increase the amount at present devoted . scholarships. He hoped that most decided expressions of opinion would be at once given, so that the injurious uncertainty at present existing in reference to the High hchool might be put an end to. It would be far better to abolish the school at once, than to allow that uncertainty to continue. A suit * WaS then taken ’ witlx the following rer e ?» 12.—Messrs Bnstings (teller), Brown J. C Browne, G. F. C„ Clarke R., Daniel, De Latour, Fish (teller), Hazlett, Kinross! Rogers, ohand, and Sumpter. Noes, 25.—Messrs Allan, Clark H., Cummmg. Driver, Green, Haggitt, Ireland, Lumsden, henries, Mollison. M'Glashan. M Kellar, M‘K<mzie, M‘Lean, M‘NeiL Ohver, Reid, Reynolds, Roberts (teller), Stout (teller), Turnbull, Turtoo, Webster, * Wilson, and Wood.

Wednesday, May 27

; Several petitions were received. Message No. 14 invited the co-operation of the Provincial Council in recommending the Gowrnor to proclaim the following additional Hundreds, to be named respectively : Pukerau, Waikaka, Waikoikoi, Waikaia. Spottis, and Dart Hundreds, containing 50,600 acres la a memorandum by the Chief Surveyor, it is stated that Pukerau Hundred—B,ooo acres (including 3.000 acres on deferred pay. inents) on MTntyre’s run—is a fine piece of level country, bounded on the south'and east by the Kaiwera and Waipahee streams. It adjoins the other Hundreds proposed at Otana. The distance of Hundred from surveyed line of Southern T rank railway is only from two to five miles. Waikaka hundred—l 4 acres (ineluding 6,800 acres on deferred payment) on M Inbyre s and M‘Nab’s runs—lies principally m the valley of that name. It fronts the river on both sides for several miles, and two-thirds of t;ie land is either alluvial flat or terrace slope. The other third is nob so nn,- St 8 so * k®* 11 !? thinner and gravelly, inis Hundred is the extension of the Wai. kaka of the deferred block recently opened on run 111. The railway line skirts the land miles, and a station will be established here as the centre of a large agricultural area. Waikoikoi Hundred—|,3oo acres (including 16,000 acres on deferred payments) on Logan’s run—is part of the Tapanui Plains, and lies between the l-omahaka river and Waikoikoi stream. The soil is in general good. There are places, however, where the ground is potted with crab-holes, and requires relief from the surplus water by ploughing and ditching. Distant from live to eight g m ih» Al >oufc 3 000 acres of this Hundred are already surveyed. Wai, kaia hundred-6,000 acres (including 2 000 ?un S i°3 a the e fi r ? d paymeufcs ) 0,1 Fielding’s bom. «nd u .boat 00.-halE l„ e l, w £g£

bo, and tbe other half the mountain slopes on oppoato sides of the valley. A better Hundred could have been selected lower down the valley and nearer the township, but the Government have been petitioned and urged several times to open this land for settlement, from ten to fifteen miles from the township. Spottis Hundred —6.800 acres (including 2,500 acres on deferred payments) on Glassford’s run—is the level extending back from the Mauuhenkia river at Black’s to near the diggings at !'.>rybread and Tinkers It adjoins the agricultural block No. 1, Tiger Hill district, and includes SCO acres of it, surveyed into fifty-acre sections. The Spottis stream runs down the middle of the Hundred, and the tail water from the diggings and sluicing claims also flows over a part of it. i his waste water may be beneficially applied. The natural hindrance to extension of farming in this part of the Province is tbe dryness of climate. The soil is fertile wherever there is sufficient moisture Dart Hundred—7,4oo acres (including 2,500 acres on deferred payments) on Butement’s run—covers the country between the Dart and Bees rivers, and between the Diamond Lake and Lake Wakaiipn. Two-thirds is . level agricultural land of very fair quality. The other third is pasture and forest land, on the southern slope sof Mount Alfred ; 2,000 acres of the fiat is surveyed.] Mr M'Dermid asked—“ Whether the Government have inquired into the correctness of certain statements made in the ■* Guardian’ newspaper of 25th Mry respecting Lewis Tobias tftead, now a prisoner in Dunedin Gaol; more particularly as to whether the gaoler, Mr Caldwell, had any right to retain Stead in custody by virtue of a Coroner’s warrant?”—and the Provincial Solicitor replied to the first part of the question that the Government had not made any inquiries into the correctness of the ‘Guardian’s’ statements; neither had they more particularly whether thegaoler had any right to retain Stead in cub-: tody. It would be a most dangerous precedent for the Government to inquire into the correctness of statements connected with a matter over which they have no control; . This was not a Government department at all. If it was expected that the Provincial Government should sit in judgment over the Judge of.the Supreme Court,'-and decide whether his conduct in is-uing a capias ad satisfaciendum against a debtor was legal, the Provincial Government might have a great cleaL morework thrownupon. it than he should ■ care for it to undertake. So far as he under- '• stood it, this matter came npbefore Mr Justice; Chapman in Chambers, who then told the : ‘debtor he could appoint whomever he pleased to sign the warrant; that he had' instructed the Coroner to do so, and the application for habeas corpus was therefore of. no avail. This question had, therefore, been decided already. Furthermore, if they wished to go into the facts, he thought no member of the Council would like to assent to this proposition, that a man without means should bring as many actions _ as _ he. chose against another man, involving him in all sor-a of expenses, .and that the latter is to have no remedy. He believed this action was wholly misconceived.. The fact was that the document for. which the action was brought was said to have been burnt, aud a copy of it—he knew that of his own knowledge—was furnished to Mr Stead. He (Mr Stout) considered th j action a vexatious one, and if the whole facts were gone into, it would be seen that the person really injured had not been Mr Stead—but the person against whom he had brought his action.—(Oh.) At all events he (Mr Stout) knew more about it than those members who so loudly crie 1 “ Oh.” In answer to a question by Mr Roberts the Provincial ‘-ecretary said the Govercment had no intention of taking steps this Sear to provide for the widening of the ridges across the Kaikorai and Abbot’s Creeks on the main south road. The railway would shortly be open, and would relieve the road of a great deal of the traffic. [Left sitting.]