PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Evening Star, Issue 2882, 15 May 1872, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Yesterday*. ENDOYVMENT OF SCHOOLS. Mr M'Dermid jnoyed—“ That 500,000 acres of land be set aside as an endowment for common schools. The Provincial Secretary pointed out that so rapidly were they setting aside reserves in all parts of the country, that by-and-by they should have the whole cquntry tied up with reserves, and there would be the greatest difficulty in securing laud for settlement, prospecting, and other purposes. He thought it Yvould be better to direct attention to getting the several reserves already granted put on a satisfactory footing, especially as the reserves already granted would bring in a revenue of between L 7,000 and LB,OOO per annum. Mr Reynolds moved, “ The previous question.” Mr Hutcheson would support the original motion, and thought that the majority of the Council were bound to support it by what passed the other day when the additional grant to the University was decided. It was then distinctly stated that no objection would be raised to an additional endowment for the common schools. The question being put, “ That the question be now put,” it was affirmed ; and the question being put on the original question, it also was affirmed. the petition of freeholders and residents OF HAMPDEN. Mr Hutcheson moved—“ That his Honor the Superini endent be requested to give effect to the petition of the freeholders and lesidents of Hamden—namely, to set aside that portion of block XIII, as defined in the above-mentioned petition.” The Provincial Secretary would oppose the motion. He would assure the Council, if they would go on setting aside tracts of land in terms of the petition in this particular case, and in the way in which hon. members seems inclined to do, there would not be a single acre to set aside long before the session Yvas brought to a close. Several hon. members having spoken in support of the motion, the Council divided —ayes, 12 ; noes, 11. The motion was consequently carried. EDUCATION RESERVES. On the motion of Mr M‘Keuzie, it was ordered, “ That it be an instruction to the Endowment Reserves Committee to enquire as to whether the lessees of the Education Reserves are carrying out the provisions of their Leases.” S’fEAM DREDGE. Mr Henderson moved; “That, in the opinion of this Council, the steam dredge should not be handed over to the contractors.” The Hon. Member, in speaking to the motion, said he did not know anything about the subject himself, but had given notice of the motion to give other members who did an opportunity of speaking to it, as he had often heard many of them talking very freely upon the subject. Mr Duncan warmly supported the motion, which was carried. THE EDCATION QUESTION. Mr Macassey moved the resolutions standing in his name, as follows “ (1.) That this Council recognises the right of the Roman Catholic body to participate in the annual grant for educational purposes. (2.) That the Government be requested to bring in a Bill to amend the Education Ordinances, with a view to provide for the distribution among Roman Catholic Schools of a just and fair proportion of the Educational Grant.” He said he hoped the question would not be

approached in a sectarian spirit, but that members would allow it to rise above party politics, as being one that affected the moral and social welfare of a large number of their fellow colonists. They were aware that during last session Mr Hanghton tabled resolutions with substantially the same object as those he placed on the paper. That gentleman —who as a son of the Church, gave to the subject an amount of enthusiasm he (Mr Macassey) could not pretend to-only succeeded in carrying three votes in addition to his own; while those voting on the opposite side numbered 23 votes. Three of the members who had voted for the motion had since resigne 1 their s j ats, which had been filled by gentlemen holding opposite views ; whilst there was only one member iu the Council who was connected with the Homan Catholic Church. He trusted, therefore, that the insignificant representation, so to speak, of the Homan Catholic body in the Council would caure hou. members to treat in a spjirit of magnanimity a question concerning 7,500 of their fellow Colonists. ! ’remising, hy complaining that the Dunedin press had invariably taken one side of the educational question, and steadfastly refused to admit into tbeir columns the arguments of leading men in England tending to prove the contrary of what had he n frequently asserted, viz., that the denominational system of education had failed wherever it had been tried, the hon. member proceeded to state the difficulties Roman Catholics had to contend with. First, ministers of religion had attended election meetings, had canvassed the political views of candidates, and used their influence to guide public opinion in the matter of education. Further, Roman Catholics complained that the schoolmasters had been using their influence to turn the result of contested elections against the Roman Catholic body. (In proof of this statement the hou. member quoted from the Wakatip Mail and the Votes and Proceedings of the Council ) From these extracts few members would doubt that it was impossible for Roman Catholics to send their children to a school presided over by a teacher who preached such opposition to the guides of the Roman Catholic faith. It would be important for the Coun il to consider if they could ignore the manifested feelings not merely of the Roman Catholics, who numbered 7400, but also the opinions of a very important section of the community—viz,, the Church of England—and he thought he would be able to produce in the minds of members the conviction that in the main the views held by the members of the Church of England entirely coincided with the views of the Roman Catholic population. It would be seen from the extracts from “Hansard,” which he read, that during the twelve months which had elapsed since the Council expressed its opinion upon the motion of Mr Haughton, the attention of the country and its leading men had been directed to the question of education ; and he was convinced that members would not, because they had voted against Mr Haughton’s motion last year, and for the sake of appearing consistent, vote against the present resolutions. If they were satisfied that he had thrown additional light upon the controversy, they would not, he felt certain, for the sake of appearing consistent in the eyes of the outside world, refuse to grant what the Catholics now asked at their bauds. The hon. member then read extracts from speeches by Earl Derby, the Marquis of Salisbury, and others, which, he contended, were a complete answer to the assertion that denominationalism has failed wherever it had been tried ; and went on to show that the Church of England, by its general and diocesan Synods, advocated much the same views as the Roman Catholics. Hon. members would no doubt adipit that our educational institutions were supported partlj by the contributions made to the Provincial revenue by Roman Catholics. Members would therefore admit the right of that body to enjoy a fair proportion of our teaching system, and he had no doubt members would go further and admit this : that not merely were Catholics entitled to send their children to school, but were also entitled to be represented in the governing bodies of our educational establishments. Could members cmscieutously admit that Catholics enjoyed those advantages which, in proportion to their numbers, they should enjoy ? He would take as a commencing point the constitution of the Otago University. They were unrepresented iu it, while he believed he was correct in saying every member of the University Council was connected either with the English or Presbyterian Church. Contrast it with the New Zealand University Council, In the latter the Catholics were represented by Bishop Croke and Dr Grace, while there was a gentleman in the Council, who was by marriage connected with a Roman Catholic family. The Roman atholics were unrepresented in the Education Board, and as they could not, by reason of their comparative numerical inferiority, ever have a strong representation iu the Provincial Council, it seemed to be an inevitable certainty that they would never have a voice in the management of the schools of the Province. And owing to there being no representation of minorities, it followed that the appointment of school commitees depended on the voices of those whose faith was not that of the Roman Catholics, Passing from that to schoolmasters, he found that of the school teachers three were ministers, he might take it for granted they were not Roman Catholic priests. In his opinion the appointment of ministers of religion as teachers was open to very grave objection, and he directed members’ attention to the Education Report for 1871, in order to show what a dangerous system would be encouraged if ministers of religion were to undertake the management of schools. The hon. member concluded by inviting members, if tbey were desirous of retaining the present system, to concede to the Roman Catholics their just claims, which he had so feebly advocated on their behalf. (Mr Macassey resumed his seat amid cheers.)

Mr Armstrong seconded the resolutions. It appeared to him that a portion of the colonists, from conscientious scruples, were unable to avail themselves of our educational system, and it would be a pity that such a respectable minority should labor under any disadvantages, Roman Catholics, if they got their fair share of the funds, were willing to have their schools inspected by the Government Inspector as to the secular instruction imparted in them. He thought it would be only dealing fairly towards them to carry the resolutions. If his memory served him right, the Scriptures said, “Religion is the salt of the earth. ” Would hon. members allow it to be settled that the rising generation should be fed without salt all the week, and have nothing hut salt on Sundays,—(Loud laughter.)

The Provincial Solicitor said that he desired to look into the question with what he called judicial impartiality— not from one side, but simply to ascertain what was good for all, for he recognised every sect in the community as being entitled to stand on common ground in regard to this matter. For that reason he dissented from the resolutions. His objections to them were not based on the basis that he was opposed to Romau Catholics; but because they introduced the spirit of denominationalism into our educational system. The experiment of denominationalism had been tried, aud utterly failed : and the present condition of education in England was a proof of it. Secular education bad been designated as godless ; but, as had been said by a Scotch judge, th-re was nothing godless about ignorance. The great amount of godless ignorance that existed in England was owing to the want of ability in the denominational system in coping with the great social problem now laid before them. Denominationalism would tend to disunite aud alienate the future people of the state who were otherwise inclined to act in harmony with each other. It could not be supported from proportionate rates and endowments, because a common fund could only be used for a common purpose. Common schools open to all could oaly follow from a national system of education. Another objection was this :—First, every denomination to have a school of its own, would require a rate proportionate to its educational requirements. It was stated that the last census showed showed that there 99 sects in the Province, and therefore it was impossible each could have a school of its own; or raise a rate sufficient for its requirements. It was therefore a political impossibility to carry on denominationalism out of a common purse. While paying a high tribute to the zeal of the Roman Catholic clergy, he said one of the pi iucipal benefits derivable from unsectariau education was that the teachers were entirely free from the interference of any clergy whatever As to the teachers in our schools, the policy should be not to make the test a religious one. The man who possessed the highest educational qualifications, whether Catholic or Protestant, should receive the appointment of teacher. One Catholic teacher had been in the employ of the Dunedin School Committee ; and he had no hesitation in saying that so long as he was a member of committee, and so far as he could, that whenever a vacancy occurred, the best qualified individual should receive the appointment. In icference to what the hon. mover had said as to the exclusion of Roman Catholics from representation from the government of our schools, he might inform the hon, member of a fact of which he might not be aware, that a Roman Catholic gentleman bad been returned as a member of the Dunedin School Committee ; and he (Mr Bathgate) had great pleasure in stating that he had always acted with that gentleman, and there had never been the smallest particle of difference between them. Another strong objection to denominationalism was that its motive power was religions zeal; and history taught what bad been the effect of that power. His final objection was based on this contention, that though a thing might be found necessary iu Great Britian, it did not follow as a necessity that it was the right thing for us. We must consider our own surroundings and our own peculiar circumstances. One of the results of denominationalism which could not b-s felt so much in the old country, but which would be felt iu an immeasurable degree here—and he regarded it as the strangest fault of the system—was that it involved an enormous waste of power —in other words, they would have in any ope district tyro schools indifferently attended. where one good school would haye sufficed. Mr Thomson was disappointed with the hon. mover’s speech, which was not exactly the speech he would haye expected, seeing the terms of the resold tion, or which he anticipated, seeing that the hon member asked the House to approve of the justness of Roman Catholics participating in any annual grant that might be made for educational purposes. Instead of putting forward arguments to support the justness of that claim, the speech was to a large extent one on the merits of denominationalism. Instead of bringing forward arguments of his own, he bad given to the House the opinions of the Earl of Derby and other gentlemen, including those of the Rev. Mr Stanford. In pursuing ihat line of argument he was injuring his own cause. What was the objection to what was asked for by the resolutions? Simply that by adopting the course suggested it led to denominationalism. For his part he was quite willing, if he could see his way to doing so—to make provision for removing causes of discontent on the part of Roman Catholics. But to do so would be to break up the education system. (Mr Macassey: Uow would you assist them ?) He would be willing to consider some well digested scheme—peyimpS a scheme brought forward by the lion, gem tlemaa—for the purpose of redressing those grievances. He felt bound in self-defence, as a Protestant parent, to oppose the establishment of denominationalism. In after lite the children of Roman Catholics and his children might mix together, and the former being better instructed in religious opinions than his (Mr Thomson’s) children, the latter might fall away from their own opinions,— (Laughter.) However, there could be no, question about this: the establishment o f denominationalism meant the breaking up of our present system. (Mr Armstrong : I would draw the hon, member’s attention to the fact that the Roman Catholics have already established schools in the Province ) He would just refer to the amendment, which affirmed that the establishment of a purely secular system would remove all grounds of complaint. He (Mr Thomson) did not think it would; fur they had the assurance of Bishop Moran that improve the present system as they would, Roman Catholics would not take advantage of it. He intended to oppose both the motion §hd amendment, Mr M'Glashan would oppose the motion. He believed in the first place that the Council would only be doing its duty in affirming that justice ought to be done to the Roman Catholics and all other persuasions; but at the same time, seeing that the General Assembly was about to deal with the question of education, he thought it inopportune on the part ®f the Couucil to bring a new Bill at the present time. He had at one time been in favor of what was known as aided schools; hut lately he had had reason to change his views. (Applause). He now thought it would be manifestly unjust to have aided schools in the Province ; and for his own part he thought there was no other way of getting out of the difficulty hut by going in for a purely secular education. A simple secular education should be given ih the national

schools, leaving it to the clergy of various persuasions in each district to give children religious instruction at their own con* venience. If they wished to carry on this educational system without strife and heartburnings, they must have secular education.

Mr Reid’s endeavor would be to refute a few of the arguments brought forward by thehon. member for Waikaii. First, with regard to his complaint against ministers taking part in recent election, he totally differed from the opinion held by the hon. member. Why should ministers be deba - red from exercising their civil rights ? He rather looked upon it as being their duty, seeing that they might be assumed to have superior intelligence, to endeavor to guide puolie opinion in their several districts, in what they considered the right channel. So with schoolmastei s. They had as much right to exercise their influence in elections as professional canvassers. As to the hon. member’s other complaint he was quite prepared to admit that Rowan Catholics were not exercising an influence in regard to educational matters, that they should exercise in proportion to their numbers. Would that be secured by the aide i schools clauses? He said they would utterly failtodo so. With denominationalism, a majority could place a minority under a domination far more intolerable than anything that existed in the Province under the present system. The hon. member proceeded to reason that because Roman Catholics asked for separate grants, it could, not be assumed that other denominations would do so. But he (Mr Reid) said they would be compelled to do so in self-defence. He thought the Council was willing to submit to a great deal for the sake of harmony, and for his part he would have gone a great way to have secured it; but he did not think the Council was quite prepared to allow the common schools to become Roman Catholic, or be submitted to Roman Catholic supervision, for the sake of peace. He was prepared to have met them with a secular system, in favor of which he considered the logical deduction from Mr Macassey’s argument went; but they bad it from Dr Moran that his Church would not bo content with it. The best plan was to relegate the matter to the Assembly, where it would be considered on its merits in a very short time.

Mr Mervyn moved the following amendment:—“ That this Council recognises the right of all classes of the community being placed upon an equal footing, and participate equally in the advantages of our educational system. 2ud. That the Government be requested to bring in a Bill to amend the Edueation’Ordinances so as to remove all just cause of complaint on the part of the Catholic portion of the community, and to make the system purely secular. ” Dr. Menzies considered Roman Catholics could make no claim for aid from an ecclesiastical point of view, but simply as citizens. The duty of the State was not to, perpetuate sectarian differences, bqt to give to |he rising generation an education that would make theip good citizens, and allow them to understand how to recognise their rights and privileges as such. Mr Reynolds answered Mr Maccassey's strictures on the constitution of the Otago Unirers'ty. He looked upon it that the selection of members of the University Council did not depend on the qualification of any p-.rticular denomination, but on the qualifier vtion ( f the individual members to the management of University affairs. Messrs Lumsden and M'Lean opposed the resolutions. The Hon. Mr Bell moved the adjournment of the debate. The Mr Holmes seconded the motion Bro. forma, mainly with the view of enabling im to give notice of his intention tq move the following amendment at the proper time j l* That this Council recognises the right of all classes in the community to participate In the grant for educational purposes, and the Council is of opinion that this can be secured only by the adoption of a purely national system of education. The mot'on to adjourn the debate was carried.