THE RAILWAYS PROBLEM

Evening Post, Volume CX, Issue 70, 19 September 1930, Page 4

THE RAILWAYS PROBLEM

VIEWS IN THE HOUSE

A LONG DEBATE

' The pressing problem of the railways and road competition was the subject of an all-day debate in the House of Representatives at 1 yesterday's sitting. The Minister of Railways saw 'brighter prospects for the railways in the future, but stressed the need for ;? economies. Certain economies, he said, had already been put into i practice, but no further vital changes.would be made until the ; ; report of the Railways -..Commission was received. The Leader oi ; the Opposition contributed: the suggestion; that:-lne system should i; be placed under the control of a directorate, The debate con■i jeluded shortly before midnight, and thettouse then went into Com- ■ mittee on the Railway Estimates, which were still under discussion j jvhen the time for the adjournment arrived.

The Minister of Eailways (the Hon. &. A. Veitch) said he felt sure members would realise that the duty devolving upon the railways administra.jtion at the .present time was a someWhat difficult but by no means.hppe3ess one. The financial records of the department-up to the end of tho last financial year were such as to cause i-'esponsible men to. view the situation Carefully and to seriously consider such Remedies as were necessary to bring about v;more satisfactory results. It had to be "remembered that the, railways were rendering a great national service, and for that reason they had to look beyond mere financial results. That consideration applied to most business concerns. If it was not possible in the end to make the figures balance ana have the taxpayer shoulder portion of ■ the burden, it was still desirable that the best possible service. should be given to the people. The gross earnings of the Department during last year were £8,250,000, which showed a decrease over the previous five years of £90,000. That was not a very big decrease '■ in such' a great concern aB the Bailway Department, but it was a decrease | nevertheless. "As against that there wasj an increase of nearly £900,000 in the ■working expenses of tho Department. That meant that there had been a drop in thV.net profit available over interest from 4.35 per cent, on the total capital invested on open lines to 1.61 per cent. At first sight those figures gave one the impression, as it had him, that there J had -been carelessness in the matter j of expenditure in the Department, but the more ho analysed the problem the more ie realised that in face of the difficulties confronting the Department —the. loss in revenue it was constantly hoped to overtake by providing better and more extensive services—that there was. a great deal to bo said in justification of the increase in expenditure. Furthermore, it had to be remembered that last year it was necessary to expend : £250,000 in overtaking arrears in repairs. On the whole there was no •reason to condemn tho' railway administration up to tho present point. , ACCOUNTING METHODS. Tlie-Minister expressed the. opinion that"".tho methods of accounting were snea '. as to require somo changes and improvement, and he was convinced that.it vwaa impossible for the Department to meet the requirements of the present law as to the amount of money it was expected to provide for depreciation, intere^ on the capital, and other relative accounts. In 1925 a new set of accounts was adopted, and the major one dealt with general revenue and-depreciation reserve. That account showed a credit balance of £ 1,687,561, but on account of the demands of the Treasury that money had not been paid to tho credit of the account, which was merely a paper entry. ECONOMIES EFFECTED. Mr. Veitch said that no major changes of policy were being made nntil the report of the Royal Commission came to hand. When that report was received the whole policy of the Department would be investigated with a view to meeting the new situation. At the same time several economies had been effected. For instance, there had been an elimination of train mileage of 870,000 train miles per annum, and that had brought About a very substantial reduction in cost of train running. Tho elimination of the train mileage was amply justified when they realised that during the last five or six years there had actually been an increase in train mileage of 2,900,000 train miles. The Department might have been criticised for iaving increased the train mileage in ihe face of reduced business and the reduction of passenger revenue. However, It had to be remembered that the Department would have been seriously blamed by the public if it had not made a determined effort to retain and recover the passenger traffic and other Railway business as far as they were able to do it. Experience now showed it would be folly to continue such methods, spending large sums of money chasing traffic which it was impossible to catch.

CLOSING OF BRANCH LINES. Referring to tho closing of branch lines, the Minister said that in this connection he had had his most satisfactory and pleasant experience. Today they, were in the happy position of being able to keep a number of the lines going owing to the response which lad been made by the residents of the localities affected. Vigilant committees had been set up in the various districts and as a'result the Department was getting a lot of business which it had previously, Jost., Passing on to discuss competition •with road traffic, the Minister said it was hoped very shortly to get legislation through the House which would jgive the Department power to co-ordin-ate both forms of traffic. It was urgently necessary that tho very heavy. dosk of competition between the. Department and private enterprise should be eliminated. He was certain that maea of it.«ould be eliminated to the, benefit of. the country and without any detriment to the road transport ebmpanies. DISMISSALS OF STAFF. she Minister remarked that he had x come in for a considerable amount of criticism by reason of tho necessity of dispensing with the services of a considerable number of men. That was the one and only painful duty that had devolved on him since he took charge of the Railway Department. He was one of those who believed that the New Zealand railway service had a great future before it, and still had a big part to play in the development of the country. He was sure the railwaymen would realise the position. Unless they could strengthen the finances of the Department, and unless they could get such transport legislation as would enable them to eliminate Taste and unnecessary competition, and snJfcss they could effect measures of wgc>ißj fend aarjs; on* improvements

in the Department, the time would come when it would not bo a question of dispensing with the services of a few hundred men, but a question of decreasing the number of permanent men employed in the Department. It was his responsibility and his duty to take a firm hold of the position. Ho was not going to try to live in a "coward's castle. In-order to strengthen the financial position and bring about improvements it was essential that ho should have the co-operation of -the staff, and ho was suro that the railwaymcn as a whole would stand behind him. NO FEAR FOR FUTURE. "AYe need have no fear as to the future of the Department," said Mr. Veiteli. "At present the Department is suffering along with everybody else as a result 'of depression, but it has to be remembered that the depression is not permanent, and that the good times will como again. It will be necessary to carry out further drastic economies in the future " Mr. W. J. Jordan (Labour, Manukau): "What do you mean by economies in the future? Do you mean more men will be discharged?" The Minister: ''No one knows what the.future has in store. The possibilities of the future are very great indeed. A slight increase in production from the land will give the Department a great deal more business, as will development of land settlement, hydro-' electricity, and touris raifie. There is no doubt that the position is very serious indeed, and calls for a drastic and comprehensive remedy. But wo must realise that tho future is full of hope. (Beform laughter.) The Leader of the Opposition by his laughter proves that ho has no hope in the future. That is no doubt duo to the fact that while he administered the Eailway Department he never attempted to deal with the problems and difficulties that were confronting him, and went on to spend money, in a very reckless and irresponsible way. That reckless irresponsibility had to a large extent brought about the conditions that confront the Department to-day. I hope the Department will never have the load of his administration, again." "A STRING OF PLATITUDES." "If ever I saw an honourable gentleman look. utterly miserable and hopeless," declared the Leader of the Opposition (the Bight Hon. J. G. Ooates), "it was the Minister of Bailways. He looked the saddest and the weariest human being I have ever watched. . . . And he suggests that all his troubles have been passed on to him by the Eeform Government." Mr. Veitch: "Personal vulgarity!" Mr. Speaker: "Order. I am afraid I must ask the honourable gentleman to withdraw those words." Mr. Veiteh: "Yes, sir." Mr. Coates: "One can only call the honourable gentleman's speech one long string of platitudes." Ho suggested that the Minister should endeavour to take hold of the position and straighten it up. Platitudes would not help him. The Minister was doing all he possibly could to put on the brakes of progress. Fast trains wore being done away with and political stopping places were, being established. It was being made a matter of political expediency and not a matter of getting trains to their destinations as quickly as possible. The Minister of Defence had been favoured with the stopping of a train at Peilding. The same thing had. been done at Te Kuiti and Te Awamutu. Mr. F. Lye (United, Waikato): "What about KirikopunH " Mr. Coates replied that the faster trains did not go as far as that. And then, he proceeded, the Minister had gone on to refer to what fertilisers were going to do for the tourist traffic! "I think it was the moat hopeless exposition of the Minister's policy," he remarked. "We had expected when the honourable gentleman took office to see some substantial changes made, and to see the Department put on tho road to recovery.',' TOO MUCH POLICY CHANGING.

Mr. Coates criticised some of the figures used by the Minister in his Bailway Statement in regard to the railway workshops as not conforming with other figures appearing in the Estimates, and he suggested that the Minister had been trying to mislead the public. The Minister should study some of the statements made by the General Manager of Railways in his annual report. Anyone who suggested that New Zealand could do without railways was. talking nonsense. They were vital to the community. The country could not function without the existing railway communications. They were the commercial life blood of the country. No General Manager—no. system of management—will be able to make a success of operating railways, said the Leader of the Opposition, so - long: as changes in Government necessitate strokes of the policy pen. Mr. J. Ti Hogan (Independent, Kangitikei): "They would have been finished altogether by now if the freights had not-been changed." Mr, Coates: "I supposo the hoiipuj'able gentleman has less knowledge of the. Railways than any other member of thei House. I claim to have had a little more experience than the honourable gentleman, and I challenge him to substantiate his statements in tho past in regard to the shops".... The Railways will never be a success under the present system. Tlve Minister of Eailways has no chance of being able to make a success of them so long as he follows the present policy. There is only one way to bring the railways into the position of being able to operate as a commercial concern, and that is to hand the whole of the railways over to a directorate. INFLTTENCE FROM OUTSIDE. Canada, Belgium, and Germany had done that. It was true that Germany had made a loss last year, but that did j not say that the system was wrong.' Why should the taxpayers be asked to pay for a loss of £1,200,000? "The Minister of Railways," said Mr. Coates, "is afraid to increase freights at cer- j tain points." Mr. "VeitoTi:"'"ls" he?" Mr. Coates: "Yes." Rising tq g point of order, M&, jVfettnh

[asked whether Mr. Coates w:is entitled to charge a member of tin; House with beiug afraid. (.Ttct'ovuL laughter.) Mr.'Coates: "I extend nil sorts oJ: apologies.'' Mr. Speaker stiid that .11: it was; meant that the Minister lacked courage lie did not think it was admissible. lie asked Mr..Coates to withdraw tho statement.

Mr. Coates complied, and said he felt that tho Minister would show a certain amount oi: diffidence before ho increased freights, for all Ministers or' Eailways had found difficulty in meeting the tremendous pressure at interested parties "in tho matter of freights.! The Chairman of tho Eailways Committeo would experience the wimo tlillt-1 culty. Mr. Coates repeated that; the sooner the Eailways were handed over to a directorate, so much sooner would the taxpayer find a reduction in the costs that fell upon him. Ho suggested to members that they should peruse tho balance-sheets of those countries which had adopted such a system of railway control. The New Zealand railways should be placed in tho control oi! independent hands, and the powers of control should be laid down definitely by Act. i| Mr. Hogan: "That is tho old conservative policy." Mr. Coates: "Well, I am quite proud if it is. It is the right one, and the only one that has proved successful." ' COMPETING TRANSPORTS. Mr. W. Nash (Labour, Hutt) said that there were a number of privately owned railways losing money. Some of the losses now being entailed were due to the policy the Leader of the Opposition had inaugurated. Tho Minister of Eailways had said that he could not get traffic, and yet production had increased 50 per cent, in the last five years. A new and'more pleasant form of transport had now eouie into being, and this'was-one of the pressing problems of the day. Mr. Coates had suggested'that the railways should be placed in tho hands of a directorate in order to place them on a commercial basis, but that would not get over the difficulty. What they must inaugurate was an economic transport cutting out wasteful duplication. The railway to the Hutt was a fow years ago a good paying line. Then tho buses came along, going to tho door of the passenger, and the situation, was altered. Mr. Nash complained that the Minister had edged from his - promise ill regard to the dismissal of men. The Government when dismissing men had the right to find alternative work for them. If it was uneconomic to keep them on the railways, it was uneconomic to put them on relief works. There was nothing more inequitable than the policy of tho Minister in re-adjusting the personnel of the Department. SPEECH DEPRECATED.

Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Independent llcforni, Gisborne) deprecated strongly the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Coates last session had extracted a promise that an inquiry would be set up, and now he ridiculed it. The Leader of the Opposition had been mainly responsible for the present position. The new railway station at Auckland and the Tawa Flat deviation would not bring in another penny of revenue. The Gosbprno line, on the other hand, would produce revenue. The position that Mr. Coates had taken up was an unreasonable oiie. His party had approved.of every lino under construction. They, had to remove the control of the railway from party polities and look to the development of the country. It was the duty of every member of the House to endeavour to minimise costs and reduce waste. The Government would be wise to introduce legislation to set up a tribunal with power to regulate the different systems of transport. The roads could not continue_ to carry tho heavy traffic that was being i imposed upon them, and at the present time the burden on the ratepayers was too great. He took strong exception to party capital being made out1 of the present position. "NOT TJNDEBSTOOD." Mr. W. J. Jordan (Labour, Manukau) said that on 11th July the Minister had undoubtedly promised that there would be no more dismissals, arid yet when the Minister was questioned he had stated that he had been completely misunderstood. He criticised the use of American paints for certain' jobs in the workshops. Mr. J. S. Fletcher (Independent, Grey Lynn) said that the rolling stock was the life-blood of the system,. but the General Manager had been refused money to make necessary repairs and renewals. Of all the literary rubbish that ever was perpetrated, the railway magazine was tho limit, and tho sooner it was cut out the better. He niaintainod that the Waikato coal contracts had not been open and above board. The contract would involve the country in an extra expense of £2500 per annum, because tho lowest tenders had been past over. PAST EXTKAVAOrANCES. The Minister of Public Works (the Hon. W. B. Taverncr) said that a large number of men at the Hutt workshops had been only taken temporarily, and when there was no more work for them their services had to be dispensed with. He agreed that no political capital should to made out of tho plight of the railways, but the present Government could claim that it had placed tho position fairly before the peopl?. No one had forecasted the development of motor transport, but tho present position was duo in a measure to past extravagances. ~: The reorganisation of the workshops had held up some of the repair 'work, and thus the abnormal charge for. this work last year should really be spread over three or four of ,the previous years. The statement that the railways should be placed under the control of a directorate was nothing more than drawing a red-herring across the track. The present Government would have to set up a large number of committees before it would break tho record of the Eeform Party.

The Hon., W. D. Stewart (Reform, Dunedin West): "We didn't set up committees to find a policy." The Minister said that the new workshops were certainly better than those they had replaced, but they had added i to the'financial burden of the country.l It was thought that some more suitable vehicle could be found for some of the branch lines, and an officer had bsen sent abroad for that purpose, but nothing suitable had been discovered. LACK OF VISION. Mr. E. J. Howard (Labour, Christ-1 church Bast) described Mr. Veitcli as a most pessimistic Minister, lacking in vision. He congratulated the Minis-, t.er on the brevity of his Statement — the shortest on record—and added that a lot of it could have been omitted. There was a lack of vision in the system, and one of the reasons why it was not paying was that it was out of date and that it was not run on business lines. Some of the carriages which were used for the transport of workers were not fit for cattle. Nothing could compete against the railways if we got them going properly. The Canadian Railways had got into the same position as those of Now Zealand, and everybody had lost heart and become pessimistic, until the advent of Sir Honry Thornton, who had lifted the system from being a non-paying to a paying proposition. Ho had exercised vision find run the railways for the service and convenience of the people. He was successful from the clay ha introduced the Diesel electric locomotive on the non-stop, and such an improvement had been effected that it was hoped soon to ease the rates on country lands. The esainple of Caaada ought

to inspire, hope for the New Zealand Railways. Mr. Howard advocated an efficient system of feeder traffic to servo the main railway lines. , SOURCES OF LOSS. "The losses on our railways constitute a running sore in the Dominion's finances," said Mr. C. A. Wilkinson (Independent, Egmont), "and unloss we cure it very shortly wo will find ourselves in serious difficulties. I am not pessimistic altogether in regard to the railways. I admit the position is bad, but I believe tho position of the operating lines can bo considerably improved. I have different opinions about the construction of new lines." One of the sourcos of loss was the freight system. . The classification was resulting in lost trade, and he believed returns would show that certain classes of goods were being lost to road competitors, who based tho tariff on a weight classification alone, as against a combined weight and bulk classification on the railways. . Ho suggested that tho Minister should look into that with a view to removing existing anomalies. The higher classifications should be reduced, considerably, even if it meant increasing, tho freight on the lower classes of goods. The soriousness of the position was shown by a comparison between the net earnings for 1926 and 1930. In 1926 tho net earnings amounted to almost £2,000,----000, and four years later they wore less than £1,000,000. That plainly called for urgent inquiry. EARNINGS HAMPERED. Then there was a bitter complaint by the General Manager of the nonsupply of; rolling stock, and that constituted a great indictment of the political head Of the Department and the Government itself, -who apparently would not provide the necessary finance. /According to the figures used by the General Manager, tho Department had been starved to the extent of £500,000 last year for the purpose of new rolling stock, and the same position obtained, this year. If tho question of road competition was tackled, ho" expressed the hopo that the old system of railway monopoly would not be restored. In some cases it might be necessary to do away with railway services and leave the road transport to cope with the traffic. In other parts the service could be confined to goods alone, eliminating the carriage of passengers. The imperative need, however, appeared to be additional rolling stock, the lack of which was hampering the earning capacity of the railway system. ABOLITION OF POLITICAL LINES.

Mr. II." S. S. Kyle (Beform', Riccarton) said it was time the political railways were abolished. Ho suggested to Mr. Taverner that it was partly due to ■ the lack of business acumen in his administration' that tho railways were in their present position. Ho supported Mr. Wilkinson's remarks concerning the need for rolling stock renewals, and said that until that was done maintenance costs would increase.

Mr. M. J. Savage (Labour, Auckland West) said under present .conditions tlie General Manager of Railways had an*.impossible task. He believed the railways should be regarded as a social service, and whether they paid or not was not the important point. The railways wero actually not losing as much as tho roads on the visible bal-ance-sheets. If the railways had to be placed on a balance-sheet basis the country 'would not be properly served. Mr. "P. Waite (Reform, Clutha) said that if they had an overlapping of services in the.,final analysis tho consumer bad to pay. In. the past the railways were the best means of opening up the country, but it was questionable whether they wero to-day. However, there was a phase that was often overlookod —the extra taxation brought in by new lauds. It was unfair to ask the General Manager to find 3J per cent, on the capital of the railways if new lines were being built by relief works, but in the years gone by the railways should havo received something of the taxation that had come from to lands that had been openod up. In the last twelve months they had been charging to tho railways relief work money that should have been charged to the Public Works Account. Mr. Waite believed that they had a good General Manager and a good staff, and if they had a minimum of political control there would bo nothing to fear. They had either to consider a revision of rates. or making those who were using the roads pay for the roads. So far nothing had been done in .this direction. . ■ . • A DOUBLE INDICTMENT.

The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr. H. E. Holland) said that if the day ever arrived when they threw aside the idea of the railways being made a public utility and insisted on the system showing a balance-sheet, they would have to credit the values which the construction and maintenance of the lines had created. Someono would have to tackle that problem. Tho General Manager's report was a strong indictment of the oflieial Opposition on the one hand, in its capacity as a Beform Governmeut, and au equally strong, if not a stronger indictment, of the present Government. ■ "The Labour Party," said Mr. Holland, "is. the only party in the House which can read this report with even feelings." (Loud Eeform laughter.) Mi\ Holland went on to show from the General Manager's report that the unsatisfactory position of the rolling stock had developed during the period of the Reform Government. Mr. Samuel referred to the establishment of the new railway workshops. Mr. Holland: "I think there is a good deal in connection with the building of the new workshops that is open to question." The United Party had been indicted in the annual report for not providing finance for improving the rolling stock. It was plain that if that was persisted in the railways would continue to lose. The Minister's policy in that connection was a losing policy. He deprecated the fact that men were being dismissed from the workshops when work was waiting to be done, and declared that every man who had been discharged this year could bo profitably re-employed immediately. It was up to the Government to completely review tho policy it had put forward in the last month or so. If the men who had been discharged were reinstated it would save tlie country from greater loss and greater disaster in the fnturc. COST'OF NEW BUSINESS EXCESSIVE. Mr. H. G. Dickie (Eeform, Patea) said that it should be pointed out to the farmers that, even if it cost them more to send their produce by rail, they would make that up by decreased rates on the roads. It seemed the cost of gaining business in the advertising branch was excessive, as on an expenditure of over £53,000 only £381 profit was made. In spite of the losses on the railways, there were 874 more employees last year, and it could not be said that they were doing more work. Mr. H. T. Armstrong (Laboiir, Christchurch East): "They are doing more work.'' The Rev. Clyde Carr (Labour, Timaru) said he thought lighter and faster trains would produce moro satisfactory results. Mr. A. M. Samuel (Reform, Thames) said what was needed was a definite statement of policy by the Government. To-day they had to face the problem of the ever-increasing losses on the railways, and they should be careful that they did not leave too big a burdon for future generations to

curry. It was the building of political railways that was crippling tho country. Ho saw the time coming when they would have to carry 011 the maintenance ot tho railways out ot: borrowed money. Tho only salvation would lio the dc-politicalisution of tho railways. Ho wanted to know if tho Minister was taking tho advjco of tho General Manager in regard to tho economies which wero being effoetod, Mr. Veitch: "We arc in complete agreement. " Mr. B. Scmplo (Labour, Wellington East) referred to costly mistaken which he said had been made- in the past. Recently a Commission had boon appointed to inquire into the mistakes u£ the past, but on that Commission the Government had placed an i.'.vGeueral Manager, who had made a mess of the railways and had been retired on a pension of £2000. Mr. Senrplo criticised tho action of tho Minister in dismissing raihvaymon, men who were his associates in, tho early part of the Minister's career. Mr. Samuel: "Ho wanted to show his authority." Mr. Setnple: "Yes, and I hope they will show their authority at the next 6 Mr. D. M'Dougall (United, Matauru) said the Reform Party was responsible for the present position of the railways. COAL AND PETROL. Mr. D. M'Dougall (United, Mataura) said they Had built roads costing over £6 000,000 to take custom from the railways. Those who had built tho roads had also voted against the petrol tax. If they allowed in cheap petrol the coal resources would not be wanted, and the miners would be unemployed. Furthermore, the money for the coal was being spent in the Dominion, while the money for petrol went abroad. If they took away tho traffic from the railways there would be greater unemployment. Mr 11. A. Wright (Reform, Wellington Suburbs) said that there weretoo many political Hues and political stops. There had been too many requests made by members on behalf ot constituencies, and all parties were equally to blame. If a member did not support local demands ho would soon lose his seat. The railways were a social service, but they could not go ou drawing on the Consolidated lund to make up the deficit. There was a J limit to the taxes the people could bear, and he believed that the limit had been reached. They had to find out which | was tho most economical system of transport, but they had to remember that a huge sum of money was sunk in railways. Thus the railways could not be scrapped, but there was a need for investigation into certain branches i of the services. When the Hutt buses.! were run by private companies they were regarded as gold mines, but since they had been taken over by the rail-; ways they ■ had shown a loss. The j N«aio and Khandallah buses, which were privately run, wero also gold mines. He hoped that the Government, would co-ordinate transport. It had put on a bus servico between Hastings and Napier, but also allowed "pirate" i buses to take the cream of the custom. Legislation was necessary to. prevent this competition, but it would have to como in order to save the railways. WANTED—A POLICY. Mr. W. B. "Barnard (Labour, Napier) stressed tho need.for a Transport Act to co-ordinate road and rail , services. What was wanted in connection with the railways < was a policy.. If anybody had been responsible for the politiealising of the railways it was j the Reform Party, and it was refreshin" to hear the members of tho party talking glibly of the need for removing tho railways * from political conMr. D. Jones- (Reform, Mid-Canter-bury) said it was hopeless to expect a policy from tho present Government. He quoted figure's' with the object of showing that under the United Party the railways were paying a less percentage on the capital invested than they aid under the Coates Government. It was to be regretted .that Mr. Coates was not still in charge of the railways. REGULATION OF ROAD TRAFFIC.

Mr. iW. H. Field ' (Reform, Otald) said' that it was not the light cars that were doing: the .damage against the railways, but the heavy vehicles with huoe ioads which raced . over roads and destroyed them. This had been found with the Hutt road. He advocated'a rigid inspection of tho heavy lorries in order to keep them down to regulation size and regulation speed. He hoped that the Department would never buy over any moro buses, but get in before private enterprise and run buses as feeders: Ho thought that the Department might, even run service cars. Ha always rogarded the "Magazine" as readablo and attractive, and in view of the proposed cutting down of its cost, there should be little cause for complaint. It was regrettable that men had to be dismissed, but it tho men could not be economically employed there was no alternative. lioplyinw to the debate at 11.30 p.m., Mr.'Vcitcli said tho various points raised by members wouM bo carefully considered. He refuted the suggestions which had boen mado that too much pressure was brought to bear on the General Manager by the Hamster, .and said that the relations between the Department and himself had been most cordial. The Minister agreed there was need ,£6r an overhaul of the rolling stock. The report was referred to the Government for consideration. The House went into Committee on the Estimates, which were still before the House when the adjournment was taken a few minutes after midnight.