HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Daily Telegraph (Napier), Issue 4112, 25 September 1884, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday. The House met at 2.30 p.m. ILLNESS of speaker. Mr. Hamlin took the chair owing to the indisposition of Sir Maurice O'Rorke. NOTICES. Sir George Grey gave notice to introduce a bill to enable the people of New Zealand to mako changes in the constitution. Mr. Hurst gave notice that he would tomorrow ask the Government whether they intended to confirm the appointment of Sir j F. D. Bell for another two years. Mr. Steward gave notice to ask if the attention of the Government had been drawn to the feasibility of opening up trade in frozen meat with India and China. Mr. Duncan gave notice to ask if the Government, with a view to encourage local industry, wowld call for tenders for cloth or made-up uniforms for the police, constabulary, anel volunteers. QUESTIONS. Replying to questions the Government said it was not proposed to alter the Customs duties this year, and therefore they would not impose an impoit duty on fresh apples; the Government would take steps to prevent the importation of American apples infected with the Codlin moth pest; it was not the intention of the Government this year to amend tho Roads aud Bridges Construction Act; the Government would ask for suggestions from registration officers to improve the form for enrolment under tho Act ; that arrangements had been made with the Bank of New Zealand to obtain half a million of money in anticipation of the million loan of next year; that provision would be made in the Public Works >"" Estimates for the erection and of school buildings ; that the figures relating to last season's operations of the Flemington Dairy Company would bo published for general information.

NEW HILLS. The following bills were introduced and read a first time:—Bill to provide for the appointment of Parliamentary UnderSecretaries and Bill to provide that Justices of the Peace be elected by the people (Grey.) THIRD READING. The Gisborne Company's Bill was read a third time. FINANCIAL DEBATE. The debate on tho financial statement was resumed by Colonel Trimble. Ho warned the House against hastily accepting the statement. He opposed 'the reduction in the education vote, and thought it would be better to do away with the Constabulary altogether than reduce it by 200, as the number left was not sufficient to enforce order. Mr McKenzie (Mount Ida) thought the , last speaker had local prejudices as regards maintaining tho Armed Constabulary. He contended that large blocks of land were lying idle owing to the administration of the lato Government. He had been told that the future of tho colony depended on frugality and industry. What was one of these without intelligence to guide and capital to aid it. He defended tho proposals for industrial exhibitions. He was not prepared to turn the Government out, although he was not sure the proposal to reduce the property tax was a wise one. Mr Mcnteath thought that Sir Julius Vogel was connected with money lending classes at home, and it was quite possible he had at heart the interest of that class which would account for tho reduction of the property-tax. It was peculiar to see the would-be member for Falmouth sitting alonjj.ide the Premier and eulogising Sir Grey. On what point were they united? The only explanation he could offer was that Sir Gcorgo Grey and the Premier desired a land tax as the first step to land nationalisation, anel tho Treasurer wanted the property tax repealed in the interests of the English money lender. Ho objected to further borrowing. Mr Gillies could not see the terrible disclosures which they had been told wero to be made. He did not believe any business man would say the £20,000 bonds were dishonored. He considered the financial position of the colony sound, and they were well able to borrow if they cared to do so. The remarks about the seven and a half millions being proposed wore absurd. He eulogised the late Government for their honesty of action in tho past, but they had carried out an alarmist policy which has injured the country. He did not agree with their raising the grain tariff. The present Government, ho believed, would do good to the country, but ho did not altogether agree with their proposals. He stigmatised the reduction of the education vote as a miserable attempt at economy. Mr M'Kenzie (Moeraki) criticised tho statement favorably. Mr Ormond, who was greeted with applause, compared the proposals of the present with those of tho late Government. The estimates now brought clown were, so • far as ho could ascertain, the same as those which would have been brought down by tho Atkinson Government. The hon. member for Egmont, however, had said that ho should propose reductions to the extent of £20,000 or £30,000 in the Civil Service, and he hoped the present Government would consider the matter during the recess, for of course they would not be expected to do anything in the matter this session. There was another difference, too. The hon. member for Egmont had proposed to reduce his estimates by £70,000 or £80,000 by not providing for charitable and hospital aid out of the consolidated revenue. He would have proposed additional aid for charitable aid and hospitals by means of taxation. He differed from some hon. gentlemen who said that the Treasurer need not have been moro definite in his proposals in reference to the Sinking fund. The House should have been able to understand that proposal. He presumed, however, that the hon. gentleman would bo able to show how the proposed saving by this expedient was to be carried out — certainly upon his being able to do so depended bis whole financial scheme. He did not agree with the hon. member for Egmont that the pro- '« posal would damage our credit, or be immoral. If the Treasurer could do what he proposed he would effect a desirable change. AH parties would agree that the abolition of the sinking funds would be an enormous benefit. Generally, therefore, he might be understood as agreeing with the Government on the proposals for expenditure and provision. Several things, however, had been omitted from the statement. No provision had been made for main and district roads maintenance, and be looked for an explanation from the Government oh this matter. Of course detailed allusion would appear in the Public Works statement, but it should have been mentioned in the budget. The Roads and Bridges Construction Act he did not admire, but he thought, seeing that it was an important measure bearing upon local works, the Government Bhould have explained their views with reference to it. There were one or two matters on which he did not agree with the Government. He did not think that if the Treasurer had been in the colony for any y time he would have made the education reduction proposal, for the people were certainly against any reduction in this direction. He regretted to see such a proposal come from the Government, which yprofessed to be liberal in principles. He entirely agreed that the present capitation was not one iota too much to carry out the system correctly. Any alteration in this direction should be made by an amendment in the Act, and after the people had expressed an opinion. The abolition of the capitation grant, too, would bo a great hindcranco in the way of settlement, inasmuch as it would discourage schools in back districts. The money now proposed to be taken away provided for the execution of the necessary smaller works of committees, aiid lie hoped the Government would at any rate hold tho matter over for another- session. He disapproved of tho proposal to reduce the Armed Constabulary. They were about to proceed with tho construction of a trunk lino of railway in tho North Island through land inhabited by sections of natives with whom they had-hardly been brought into contact. Past experience taught us that anucb was to bo feared from these natives, and the operations would be greatly aided by a strong force of armed men. The hon. member for Wailotara had been in office for several years as Native Minister, and whatever doubts were felt in the House there was no doubt that tho country ap- j

proved of his policy, and more especially of tho results of it. Would it bo wise, now that we were about to enter on a work which would certainly test our influence over the natives, to reduce the force of Constabulary ? It would be much better for the Government to incur the expense of maintaining the present force than incur risks of which tboy did not know. Those were points upon which he differed from the Government. Outside of them he should have much pleasure in supporting the Ministry. In respect to the loans, Mr Ormond refused to admit that seven and a half millions were proposed. Money to be borrowed by a syndicate was not to be included in tho loans of tho Government. They proposed to borrow a million and a half, and the remaining amount was authorised or incurred by tho lato Government. Doubtless, when the Public Works statement came down, they would find that a million and a half was to be spent on works already authorised, and tho money on which had been allocated by the Atkinson Government, therefore he could not see why his friends on the Opposition should make objection on this matter. Refeiring to the lines, he said there were two lines going from Wellington in one direction. Of these two the West Coast line must be a main one, and the sooner they recognised that fact the better. The Napier end of one line was the best paying one in tho North Island, yet it had not progressed more than a mile or two for several years, while a contract was now being completed for the extension of the Masterton end of the lino. He hoped tho Minister for Public Works would give this matter consideration. He eulogised the action of the Government in agreeing to the proposal in reference to the North Island trunk line, and suggested that an important consideration should be the land through which the line should run. Whichever route was adopted the Government would do well if they excluded the operation of the Native Lands Act on territory along - alternative routes. In reference to native land, he had in tho past been in favor of doing away with the preemptive right, because at that time it had been considered desirable to bring lands into the hands of Europeans and under the operation of taxation. Now, after an experience of many years, he was of opinion that legislation in'that direction had failed. At the'present moment large tracks of land were lying in the North Island waste and unproductive, and in his opinion the time had come when these lands should be subjected to the same taxation as

European lands. He would allow the Crown to purchase the surplus lands of the natives. They were not in a position yet to debate the proposals to construct lines by syndicates, but if this could be clone, as the Treasurer said it could, he would give it consideration and support. The most important matter the Houso would have to deal with was that of local government. He had not altered one iota of his opinions on this question since he last sat here ; he was, if anything, more convinced than ever that a change—anel that a radical one—was desirable. He hoped the Government would not refer the matter to a Commission. He had seen many Commissions appointed, and he defied any hon. member to point to the benefit accruing from them. He had never taken any part in those Commissions, aud he never would. His friends, the members of tho late Government, he considered, had assisted a great deal the backward steps of the colony by centralising business in the Wellington offices, and the view of the hon. member for Egmont was an exceedingly small one in reference to local government. He (Mr Ormond) was prepared to give every credit to tho late Minister for Lands for his administration, but how much more would he have succeeded if he had not had nominated boards working for him. In the management of hospitals, gaols, police, etc., boards should also be appointed. The late Government, he argued, had ministered to local bodies unsatisfactorily, for they had at last come to such a state that they were doling money out as it was asked for. He blamed the system, however, not the Ministry. Referring to taxation, Mr Ormond saiel it was well known that he opposed the property tax on the ground that it interfered with tho proper administration of local finance. The Treasurer had intimated that he would not need additional taxation, but if he did he (Mr Ormsnd) was of opinion that an income tax was a legitimate provision if the property tax was done away with. He supported the Government on the understanding that the Premier would devote himself in the recess to bring up such a policy as he had sketched, anel if he did that the Government, if defeated in the House, would bo entitled to take the oxiinion of the country upon it. Mr Pyke thought if tho Government were able to reduce tho property tax they could have easily abolished the gold duty. The number of local bodies in the colony was enormous, and local government was reduced to an absurdity. Tho curse of Parliament was that roads and bridges, which were questions for tho local bodies, were made questions of policy in the House. Mr Grig-g hoped the present Government would remain in office, but would like to see several of their proposals modified. Dr. Newman thought the Atkinson Government had suffered from the low price of wool and the failure of the wheat harvest. He agreed with the sinking fund proposals, but not that it could have been done years ago. He would not oppose the statement, because the Government should not be harassed until the Public Works statement was brought down. Mr Beetham defended the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, which ho said had done a great deal of good. Ho had not como to the House prepared to give support tothc present combination. He would, however, not be found offering any factious opposition. Major Atkinson denied that the bonds wero dishonored. The Public Trustee was absent from Wellington when they fell clue, and there was no necessity for immediate payment. With reference to the contractor's deposits, he stated the deposits - were paid into the revenue, and were to all intents and purposes public revenue. By clause 7of tho Publi.. Revenues A.ct it would be found that all moneys deposited with any public officer should become public property, therefore the action he had taken was legal. Having dealt with the other charges, he said every Government was bound to carry on work until they actually left office. Such being the case, he had a perfect right to let the two contracts. He was most anxious to see a sound system of local bodies established, still he knew from experience small centralism was objectionable. For instance, Gisborne would never be content to be governed from Auckland. Mr Stout said the late Government announced, that if they remained in office, they would have reduced the education vote. They wero spending £390,000 per annum on education. He was glad to hear that tho vote was so popular. Major Atkinson would have reduced it ss, while they only proposed to reduce it a few pence. He believed Mr Wakefield hacl damaged his usefulness by his shiftiness. Ho denied that there was an agreement between the late Treasurer and Auditor re the bonds, consequently nothing unjustifiable was done in the matter by this Government. Cluse 7 of the Public Revenues Act showed that Major Atkinson hacl no right to pay contractors' deposits into the consolidated fund. The late Administration were not justified iv letting contracts after they were elefcated; he called it a gross piece of jobbery. He regretted that any Ministry should have placed itself in such an unenviable position. The motion for leaving the chair was put—Ayes,'sl; noes, 4. The following is the division list: — Ayes, 51—Allwright, Ballance, Barron, Beetham, Bevan, Braclshaw, Buchanan, J. C. Buckland, Cadman, Cowan, Duncan, Fitzherbert, Eraser, Gillies, Gore, Grigg. Guinness, Hatch, Hurst, Holmes, Johnston, Joyce, Lance, Levestam, Locke,' Macarthur, M. J. Mackenzie, J.Mackenzie, D. Macmillan, ' Montgomery, Morris, Newman, O'Callagbau, Wi Pere, Reese, Richardson, Ross, Russell, Samuel, Seddon, Shrimski, Steward, Stewart, Stout, Sutter, Taiaroa, T. Thompson, Tole,' Turnbull, Walker, W White. Noes, 4—Brown, Hakucnc, Lake and Moss. In" Committee progress was reported, and the House rose at 2.55 a.m.