THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 12, 9 October 1919, Page 6

THE HOUSE

The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. A message was received from tho Legislative Council intimating that tho Council insisted on its amendments in the Women's Parliamentary Eights Bill and stating reasons for so doing. On tho motion of the Prime Minister it was decided that the message be considered next sitting day.. THE COST OF LIVING MORE ABOUT QUEENSLAND. Tho Order of the Day was Committoo of Supply (to consider .the Estimates). Onco again Mr. M'Conibs intercepted supply.

Mr. M'COMBS discussed cost of living, saying that New Zealand ought to follow the exatuplo of tho Queensland ment in controlling tho piice of commodities. Ho followed up his former arguments about the.price of meat. Mr. G. V. PBAKCE said that the fact was that meat was cheaper in New Zealand than in. Queensland or anywhere else. Tho best lamb could be purchased at Gd. per lb. at any freezing works, and a group of working men could easily combino to buy a carcass. Of course tho retail prico of meat delivered by tho pound at the consumers' doors must necessarily be high. Mr. H. HOLLAND said that the real comparison ought to be between retail prices in Queensland and retail prices in Now Zealand. The fact was that tho prices of meat and other food commodities woro so high in New Zealand that a working man could not afford to live decently. Mr. I'. ERASER argued that the opening of State meat shops in Queensland had kept down prices there, and ho contended that the Government ought to opon State meat shops here. Controlled Prions. The Hon. W. D. S. MACDONALD said that ho was not prepared to eay at onco that a reduction could not bo made in prices, but ho would not ajreo that nothing had boon done to control prices. The prices of all exportable commodities had been controlled bv the Government, possibly at higher prices than tho people wished to par, but still at prices which were low bv comparison with world values. Tho Government bad arranged for the supply of frozen meat to butchers, but the peoplo would have fresh meat. The otlior day butchers had had to pay £5 7s. (id. for fat wethera at Lovhi— ationt a shilling a pound. Thoy could not sell that meat except at high prices.

Jlr. Pearce: They could havo bought at lid. from the. cold stores. Mr. JlacDonak said that he was etill not prepared to say that meat shops should not be runjby the Slate. Mr. Holland: Why didn't you keep them going? Mr.' Mac Donald eaid tint full inquiry had been mndo into the question, and arrangements were made by whioh the retail butchers agreed to sell at certain fixed prices. This made State shops unnecessary. No eaving to the consumer could have been muoo) 'and there was no reason for disturbing the ordinary course of business. But for the Government control of food products such as meat, butter, and cheese, the prices would be 3d. to 6d. per pound dearer. The same applied to wheat, .potatoes, and other products. None ol the producers had' had tho full market value of their products, , and ho warned the Labour people and t'he others who clamoured against the price of food commodities, that it would noi; be for the good of the country if producers were to be restricted until they were almost forced out of business. He mado a vigorous defence of the producers, as being the men to whom this country owed much, and on whom this country was still wholly dependent. Th<> farmers, in spite of the .way in which they had been maligned, had done emelleat work for tho country in the war period, and they •were not as a class anxious to exploit the rest of the community. Storane of Food, Dr. A. K. NEWMAN said that the only remedy for the situation was that the Government fhould buy milk, eggs, and' butter in the summer, when they wero cheap, and store them, in order to sell them cheap in winter. People could not have fresh eggs and fresh butter in winter without paying the price for them. Ho suggested also that the chilling process for meat should , he tried for winter supplies. He said that the present prices of meat wero not excessive. The greatest saving could bo made by cheaper mothods of distribution, possibly by reducing tlio number of distributors. Mr. R. SEMPLE (Wellington South) toldthe House that tho rings and combines described by a commission in 1912 wero stronger and more oppressive now than they had been then, The Government had made no real effort to check them Mr. H.. G: ELL ' (Christen urch South) /ead from Queensland newspapers to show that unemployment among returned soldiers was very much more serious than in New Zealand. Sir Joseph Ward: What In the point? Mr. EH: It has been -Stated that the Queensland Labour Government has abolished ■unemployment. Labour members: No! The Prime Minister. The PRIME MINISTERsnid it was not necessary to go into tlits details of what the Government had done to keep down prices during recent years. Members of tho House knew U\o fuels. There was no country in tho world whore, in proportion to population, so much had been done as in New Zealand. • "I have no time for tho profiteer," snid Mr. Massey, "and I have still losa time 'or the politician who trie* to make politic.-.! capital out of tho hnrdaiiips imposed on (he peoplo by tho war ami. the consequent falling-off in production. Tho cost of living is lower in New . Zealand to-day than in any other British country. No other country is as prosperous to-day as this Dominion. There is no other country in the Empiru where so much has been done for labour, where labour is so well paid. No other country in (he world relieves tho people of small incomes of taxation in tho ivay \vt> do "Wβ all regret that the cost of living has gone up, and that hardship has been caused to persons of limited incomes. But we must not shut ouv nes to what has been done. I think wn have had too much fault-finding altogether." Mr. Eraser (Wellington Central): You wero a pretty keen critic in Opposition. Mr. Massey: But T. never took an unfair advantajri-flf nr. on-noneiil. Mr. Holland (Grey): You dumped them into gaol when you could not deal with them. Mr. Massey: If a man has broken the law of Mi is country and is guilty of sedition there is only one place for him, and that is between four walls, Mr. Holland: You altered the law about sedition.

Mr. Massey: I have no time for the law-breaker aud for the man who does not do his duty to his country in its time of danger. Mr. Frascr: What do you think of Sir Edward Carson? Mr. Massey: I think the lion, gentleman had belter put that question on t.ho order paper. (Laughter.) I wish tho hon. member was as good a man as Sir Edward Carson.

New Zealand's Advantage. A suggestion had been made by Dr. Newman, continued the Prime Minister, that the Government ought to store produce. That was done, already There was no scarcity of meat. The recent scarcity of butter had been due to an exceptional winter, and it had been of short duration. If peoplo would buy then- foodstuffs over tho counter at tho establishments where prices were low, they would effect a big saving. But if they preferred to send in orders and havo the goods delivered at their doors by motor or cart, they were bound k> pay for tho privilege. Mr. Massey proceeded to read an article from the Brisbane "Courier" dealing with the cost of living in Queensland. The article stated thab the cost of living had risen G2 per cent, in Queensland under a Labour Govornmont. ..igainst an average of 47 per cent for all Australia. In order to sell oheap meat in the Government r shops tho Queensland Government had commandeered meat belonging to the producers of the country at low prices, and at the saiuo time had sold most of. the meat from the Government farms in the export market at the highest available prices. It was a fact, of course, that oeef could be produced more cheaply in Queensland than in New Zealand or in any other Australian State. Yet the cost of living was higher to-day in Queensland than anywhere else in Australasia. Tho New Zealand Government had been more successful in keeping down the cogt of living than the Queensland Government had been,

THE ESTIMATES The consideration of tho Estimates was resumed in Committee of Supply. Mr Vouch (Wanganiii) on the Internal Affairs volt, expressod alarm regarding the dismissal* of temporary employees. Dr. Newman (Wellington East) asked how many enemy aliens wero retained in New Zealand, and what was going to bo done with them, and did the Government intend to deport additional numbers. The Hon. J. B. Hine (Minister of Internal Affairs) said that interned Germans were under the control of the Defence Department. Some had been deported, and it might be advisable to get rid of some more of them. Suggestions were made by Mr. Fraser and Mr. Downie Stewart that more special articles should be printed in the Year Book, and that the writers should have the credit of them. The Minister said that this would Iμ considered. PUBLIC SERVICE CONTROL. COMMISSIONER SYSTEM DISCUSSED Mr. G. Witty (Ricearton), speaking to tho vote for the Public Service Board, asked if the Government intended to continuo a sy'stom that was not Jiked by tho country, and tho Commissioners themselves had shown their disapproval of it.

The Minister for Internal Affairs (Hon. J. B. Hine) said it was not the intention of the Government to abolish control of tho Civil Service by the Public Service Bonrd. The Commissioners had been asked to continue in offico for- nn extra three; months. That would cover a period up to June 30 next, and in the meantime the whole matter would bo considered. Mr. 11. G. Ell (Christchurch South) staled that the public and the Civil Servants were dissatisfied with the presentsystem of control. Mr. H. Holland (Grey) stated that in the future the Civil Servants would have to be given representation on the ocutrol'ling board. The Government's Plans. The Prime Minister said the position was tba-tsthe two Commissioners now in office- would hold thoir position until Jnne 30 ni>x.t. It was likely that they would get, leave of absence for two or three months before their period expired. Representatives of the Civil Sorvants had interviewed him recently, and Had expressed a strong opinion against a return to political control. They urjred also that the members of the service should bo represented on the board. Nothing definite- had been donu with regard to that. Tho suggestion vronM bo considered by the Government \n due course. Ho had no doubt that Parliament would meet before .Tune 30. He befieved it. would meet early in the Now Year. That wonld Iμ necessary for sovcral imnortwit rfia.-ons. Personally, his declared for thn commissioner system every time i\9 against political control. As far as lit was concerned the Commissioner system would stand. Dr. A. K. Newman (Wellington East) ajresd that tho workers ought to have representation on the controlling authority. Ho hoped tliQ Civfl Servants would l>! , allowed to appoint one of the Commissioners. This aTranpement would avoid a great deal of friction and discontent. Commissioners and boards of directors vraro apt to gel: too far away from tho people whose services they used. .Commissioner control had its good features. It had saved members of Parliament from being -required to seek billets for people. The Next Session. Mr. W. A. iVciteh (Wangamfi) asked for an assurance that the question of Public Service control would not be settled without the sanction of Parliament. Mr. Masaey: If I happen to bs in office Parliament will bo called together long beforo June next year. Tho Liberal View.

Sir Joseph Ward ("Awarua) 6aid ho was quite satisfied that tho present system of control was not satisfactory. Ho .agreed with tho principlo ■ of giving representation of public servants on any board of control. He had adopted that principle in the Post OflUo Bill last session. In the Public Service at tho present, time there wns a great deal of discontent owing to tho fact that men doing professional work were inadequately paid. Tho Commissioners workedunder rules, and Ministers had not tho right to interfere, with the result that tho best men tended to leave tho service. Some of them wero doing that now. Tho difficulty in tho Public Truet Office had become so acuto that tho head of that Department, and a former Public Service Commissioner "had placed on record his objection to the present system. He was against political interference with appointments to tho Public Service. Hβ did not believe much of that had ever been dono. The system of transfer from ono Department to another did not make tor content in the service. Ho did not want to revert to the old , system, but he agreed that a change was necessary. The matter could properly lie held over until the new Parliament had an opportunity to deal with it. Ho had quite mado up his mind that there oould never bo any departure from the system of Parliamentary control of tho expenditure of the public Departments. No commissioners or boards could bo allowed to determino expenditure. Mr. Massoy: Parliament, must control the purse. Mr. B. A. Wright (Wellington Suburbs) said ho believed still that tho principle of the Public Service Act was a sound one. although it appeared that satisfaction had not been given. It obviously had been impossible for the Commissioners to have personal knowledge of every member of the Public Service. The system had been an experiment, and it required to • ba improved, not abolished. The Uon. G. W. Russell (Avon) said tho object of the system had been to make, the Commissioners entirely freo of Government control. Their term of office was about to expire now, nnd Parliament bad a right to be consulted regarding future arrangements. If any change were made, the relations between the Commissioners and the Board of Appral would require to be considered. The Hon. J. A. Hanan (Inwrcargill) said he believed a Minister should have certain control of his officers, particularly those in the higher positions. This was necessary if Ministers were to do justice to their Departments. Ministers at present had very little control. They

might know that an officer was not efficient; or was n square peg in a round hole, but they could neither move him nor interfere with his promotion. It was well known that: incompetent officers could hold their positions under the present system. Ho did not seo why Ministers should not, bo Riven more power to seo that billets were properly filled. Mr. E. P. Leo (Oamaru) said that the right of appeal ought not to be subject to any veto. Tho decieion of a competent appeal board should be final.

Mr. E. Newman (Eiingitikei) expressed approval of the commissioner system, which had worked at a disadvantage owing to the war. He did not want any return to unrestricted political control. Mr. Masscy, replying to Mr. Romple, fißtd that tho proposal that tho roprcsenativo of the service on the Board of Control should l>e elected by tho members of the wrvice themselves was a matter for Cabinet consideration. Ho could not say more as to his oninion than that the idea rather appealed to him. Hospital Matters. The Prime Minister, replying to several suggestions made in connection with the hospital Estimates, said that a substantial vote would be included in the -Public Works Estimates for buildings on the Somes Island quarantine station. A now scale of salaries for probationary nurses was being prepared. A hospitals conference would be held before the next session, and this matter would bo discussed. The Government was not pressing , for payment of tho promissory notes taken from stranded New Zealnnders when advances ivero made in Australia. Mr. Massey stated, in replying to other questions, that a superannuation scheme was going to li« provided for nurses. The Defence Estimates were passed at 1.15 a.m. •m"B ss'x :)« esoJ osnojj auj, •pasrefl aia.u B3:)titui}srj .inrxj -tq oqu puts ain.ißjf puc siuo.)snQ enj,