COAL MINER'S DEMANDS

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 263, 2 August 1919, Page 8

COAL MINER'S DEMANDS

AN OPEN CONFERENCE WITH EMPLOYERS

RADICAL CHANGES PROPOSED

A LIVELY DISCUSSION

Tho most impovtimt meeting hold in all New Zealand yesterday was that of the conference of representatives of tho Coal .Miners' Moderation with tho Coal Mino Owners' Association to discuss proposals for a new agreement' to govern wages and working conditions in the mines. Tho most important of tho demands of tho miners are'for the abolition of tho contract system in mines, and tho reduction of tho working day to soven hours'bank to hank immediately, and to six hours per day bank to bank from January 1, 1921 Tho coal owners hiivo in tho dearest terms declared that they cannot consider theso terms, and there the matter rests at present. Tho meeting continued until six o'clock last evening, and it is to be resumed to-day. Following were tho delegates present:— Representing the Minors'' FederationMessrs. J. .Roberts, Peter O'liou'rke, J. M'Bride, A. Toseland, J. Arbucklc, P. Niven, R. Spencor, and A. Pipe. Representing tho Coal Mine Owners' Association—Hon. E. V 7. Alison (Taupiri Mines), president of the association, Messrs. W.' Pryor (secretory of tho association), W. A. Flavell (VYcstport Company), ,T. Bishop (Taupiri mines), E-. S. Wight (Pukemiro collieries), W. Reese (Westport-Stockton), J. D. Douglas (Hikurangi Company), F. Redpath (Mount Torlase), C. S. Owen and W. Carson (Now Zealand Coal and Oil Company), W. J. Ralph (Taupiri mines), W. Lcitch (Mount Torlase), J. C. Brown (Westport Company), W. Crowe (Westport-Stockton), G. R. Cheeseman (Taratu Company), A. M'KeMar and J. Watson (Blackball Company), (i. Christie (Green Island Company), G. Townsend (Westport-Stockton), J. A. C. Bayne and T. S. AVe?ton (Paparoa Compaivy), J. Thomson (Waipa collieries), T. 0. Bishop (State mines), and Colonel Holgate (Northern, Ccal Company), i On the motion of Mr. B. W. Alison, seconded by Mr. O'Rourke, Sir Georgo .Clifford was voted to tho chair.

Concerning the Press. The first question raised was as to whether or not the Press should be admitted to the conference. Press representatives were already present by invitation. The representatives of tho Miners' Federation strongly opposed the admission of tho Press. The president of the coal owners let it be understood that his association considered that tho questions before the conference were of 6uch supreme importance to tho peoplo of New Zealand that they had a.right to know what was going''on at tho conference,* and had decided that they would not proceed with the conference unless the' Press were present. The miners' delegates then agreed to go on with the Press present, but insisted that invitations should bo sent from the conference to the representatives of papers other than the daily papers in Wellington—the "Maoriland Worker," "Truth," and the "Railway Review." This was agreed to, and the conference adjourned till the afternoon. Tho only, reportor jv-ho attended from theso other papers was the representative of the "Maoriland Worker."

Men's Fresh Demands, After the adjournment, The Hon. E. W. 'Alison said: Before the federation's demands are considered tho coal owners raiso tho question as to why the federation has made fresh demands seeing that the existing coal mining industrial agreement docs not expire until six months after tho termination of the war, and that the agreement has therefore about six months to-run.

Mr. O'Rourke said that as far as the rank and file of tho miners wore concorned tkey dated their tiruo from _ tho signing of the armistice. They considered that sis mouths after the signing of the armistice their agreement had expired. Mr. Alison said that the coal owners did not know what was m tho minds of the rank and file, but they did know what were tho terms of the agreement. "When tho cont'orence between the Coal Owners' Association and the Miners' Federation took place on September 10, 1918," he said, "tho coal owners submitted the following offer, viz.:—

"1. That, with the view of securing an amicable settlement of tho dispute, and accepting tho assurances of the miners' delegates that during, the term of' the existing agreements the federation will undertake that no further Dominion coal labour disputes will arise,. the mine owners' offer to increase existing bonuses by 7* per cent, to ipiece workers and contract workers, mi 10 per cent, to wages men. "2. That mine ownors undertake to supply miners with explosives during the cuTronty of existing industrial agreements at the, price at present being charged by the respective companies." Upon this offer being made the federation representatives withdrew, and subsequently made the following counteroffer, viz.:— "1. That employers should agreo to an all-round increase of 10 per cent., and (2) that tho Government bo requesteo to intervene and. endeavour to arrange a settlement."

On the employers intimating ' they could .not accept the federation's offer, and finally after the federation representatives accepted the ofter of 10 per cent, and 7J per cent., subject to ratification by the several miiiors' unions, they promised to do everything possible to secure its acceptance. ' Subsequently, the federation intimated in writing that the terms of the agreement wero approved .by , tho several miners' unions.

Tho two clauses referred to did not in any way vary the terms of tho existing industrial agreements, excepting in respect to the increased bonuses. The term for whioh. these agreements were to operate Is set forth in. the majority of cases in tho following words:— "This agreement shall come into force on , and shall continue in forco during tho duration of the war and for six months thereafter, provided that such term shall not exceed a period of three years from tho date of this agreement." That is perfectly plain language. In two agreements the clause is slightly varied and is expressed thus:— "This industrial agreement to come into forco on , and to remain in forco until six months after the declaration of peace between Great Britain and Germany, but subject to tho provisions of tho Act.".

The federation contends that the term for -which the soveral agreements was made expired six months from ihe date when the armistice was arranged in November Inst, but nil competent authorities agree that tho poriod of tho duration ol tho war will end 'only when proclamation is niado 'by tho GovernorGeneral and published in the Gazette.. In addition to tho above, the War Legislation mid Statute Law Amendment Act defines the period 'of the duration of the'war as follows:—"The war shall bo deemed to bo existent until a date to be named as the date of tho termination of the war in a proclamation by tho Governor-General published in the Gazette."

Notwithstanding, therefore, that the mino owners nre now meeting tho federation representailvos it be clearly understood thai; if any agreement is arrived at it will not lake effect until Hid expiry of.oxisting industrial agreements and awards, viz., six months after the proclamation of peace by the Governor as prescribed by the 4al.ule law of the Dominion. 11, therefore, being evident that tho term of existing ngrecmoiils has not expired,, mine owners submit that (lio federation must sifirea Hint the agreements should be observed for (he period for which they were made. Mr. Roberts said that Mr. Ali.-nn misunderstood the case. In agreements Dial had been made which were intended to run until six months after the declaration of peace this was specifically slated in those terms. Hut. this agreement of the Miners' Federation was for the duration of the war and six months afterwards. There had been no war since the signing of the armistice. And assuming a that tho case was as Mr. Alison rcpro-

sonted, Hie miners had still nu absolute right to ask for a revision of their agreement under tho legislation of last session. Not only would tho representatives of tho federation insist that tho agreement ended six months after tho signing of tho arniisice, but they would insist on tho now agreement licinir dated back to six months after tho signing of tho armistice.

Mr. Alison said that tho nitostion, was I not one for determination, by individual j opinion. It was a question which ought to be settled by a high legal authority. Tho mino owners were prepared to submit tho question of the interpretation of this part of the agreement to the So-licitor-General or to. Mr. Skorrett, K.C., or to tho Arbitration Court. Ho denied that the miners had a right to tho revision of their agreement under the law, Under what law? The only provision in tho Act of last session was that giving tho Arbitration Court power to review agreements on account cf rise in the oust of living. The coal owners were prepared to take this, case to tho Arbitration Court if tb.o minors desired. "But," he said, "when wo mako an agreement wo keep it, and wo expect you to do the same." Mr. Roberts still maintained that the termination of the war was at the cessation of hostilities by the armistice. He would not agree to tho determination of the question bv any outside authority. Sir George Clifford suggested that the question was purely a.legal one, which could not 'be settled by any amount ot argument. Ho thought it would bo a \ory fair compromise if the matter were submitted for decision to the SolicitorGeneral. Would this bo. acceptable io both sides?

Mr. O'fiourko: It seems to us (hat an endeavour is being made to use this question for tho purposo of making disruption. As far as wo are concerned wo don't intend to accept the legal interpretation of anybody. We claim the right to put the interpretation of any saneminded man on tho wording of the agreement. Mr. Pryor raised this question with me onco before. It was then understood that tho signing of the armistico was the conclusion of the war. I think Mr. Pryor will agree with that. Mr. Pryor: No, nothing of the kind. I absolutely and definitely, deny that .1 put that construction upon it. Mr. O'Rourke: "That is a matter of opinion between me and Mr. Pryor, and I suppose my word is as good as Mr. Pryor's on'that point.'' He said that it appeared' to him that the purpose of tho placing of theso questions before tho conference was to create disaffection and to cause disruption. If tho owners did that sort of thing then tho blood bo on their own heads. The chairman took exception to statements of this character. ; He suggested that this question on which no agreement appeared to bo passible in tho meantime should be postponed, and that tney should get on with the rest of tho business.

Mr. Roberts said that he was agreeable to this course, but it must not ho understood that tho federation would agree to tho reference of tho question for determination by any legal authority. The only legal authority to decide this question was the conference.

Proposed New Agreement. Sir George Clifford said that the question could be. left over, possibly to be sertled later by the law of the land, lie then called upon tho representatives 01 tho Miners' Federation to put in. their proposals for a new agreement. ' Mr. O'Rourke read the terms, as follow:— "THE M. OOAL, GOLD, SHALE, Ul/AlillY AND TUNNEL WORKERS' FEDERATION. "PROPOSALS FOE NATIONAL AGREEMENT. .

"Abolition of tho contract system. "That miners bo paid £\ per day. "That truckers and horse drivers bo paid 17a. Gd. per day. "That men m charge of rope road be paid 17s. I)d. per day. . "That rope road workers nineteen years and over be paid 17s. Gd. per day; 18 to 19 vears, Us. 7d. per day; 17 to 18i years Vis. lid. per day; 1« to 17 years, lis. 3d. per day; Ja to 1G years, 9s. 9d. per day. "Screen workers, 19 years and over, bo paid 10s. 3d. per day; 18 to ISI years, I.ls. 9d. per day; 17 to 18 years, 12s. 2d. per day; 16 to 17 years 9s. od. psv day; lo to lli years, 9s. per day; 15 yeais, 7s. do. Pe "Tippors to bo paid 16s. 3d per day; lamp trimmers to be paid 163. 3d. per day; carpenters to bo paid 18s. 4d. per day; blacksmiths and tool sharpeners to bo paid JBs. id. per day; youths to be paid as per scale; yardmen and other outside workers not snecified lGs. 3d. per day. "Hours of work shall bo seven hours bank-to-bank immediately, and on January 1. 1921, hours shall bo reduced to six hours' bank to bank. . "Pay to be .weekly every Friday afternoon; every Saturday to bo an idle day. "No coal to be hewed other than on day

"Any worker employed on back shift to receive 10 per cent, above schedule rates. "Hours of work in wet places shall bo five hours bank, to bank. Should any dispute arise as to what is a wet placo. same to be settled by the manager and tho cheek inspectors. "Company to provide suitable wateiproof covering where necessary. "A plentiful supply of drinking water in each mino. "No trucking to be dono by miners. "Christmas holidays to be from December '3 to January 5, both days inclusive. Eaator holidays to bo from Good Friday to Easter Tuesday, 'both days inclusive. Other holidays to bo as follow :-May Day, St. Patrick's Day, and Labour Day. Should any agreement holiday fall on a Sunday or pay Saturday, another day to bo'substituted as may be mutually arranged. Any person employed on Sundays or agreement holidays to be paid double time. "All rails to be laid by road men; short rails to bo provided for each place. "If anv envplovev shall employ any worker who shall not be a member of the union, and who within 14 days after his engagement shall not becoroo a member of the union and remain such member, tho employer shall dismiss such worker from his service if requested to do so by tho union. "Not more than one shift to be worked rn 2-t hours, special work to bo arranged between tho union and tho manager. "Company to provide free light, tools, and house coal to all workers. "In tho event of a fatal Occident occurring in or about tho mine, all members of the union shall cease work till after tho funeral.

"NATIONAL AGREEMENT. "That all workers shall be granted a fortnight's holiday iu each year on full pay, sumo to bo from December 23 to January 5, both days inclusive. "That iu tho cvout of any man being home through any cause other than his own, ho be paid by tho company for timo lost. "Employers shall pay for timo lost by workmen in conveying or attending injured workers." Air. O'Kourko said that the crux of tho situation was in tho abolition of tho contract system and the reduction of hours. Consequently he did not intend to deal at that stage with any other aspects of tho proposals. If these obstacles could bo surmounted tho rest of Uio agreement would bo very easy. "As has been pointed out by several speakora," ho mid, "tho reason why New Zealand is in such diro necessities for coal is becauso of tho bad conditions in tho different mines. Wo don't want to seo the New Zealand public starved for coal. Tno miners of Now Zealand havo no ambition for that to occur. What thoy want is good facilities insido tho mines and outside tho mines. AVe are not so mjich concerned with the outside conditions, the swial and living conditions, r.t tho present time, as the Government is taking-steps in this direction. AA'c jiavo decided to leave that matter over as far as this agreement is concerned. What we are concornod about is that tho men who go down into the Ixiwels of Iho earth hewing coal, and so make possi'blo tlie social conditions of New Zealand, sliould get the best possible conditions that if is possible to provide for them, so thai ,1 plentiful supply i»r workers may be attracted to the mines, and a better class of men. If wo can surmount those problem,? wo shall have got over the roughest of Hie road. The other things will adjpt themselves as we go along.

The Demand for £1 pur Day, "It is quite, evident, especially since the armistice, that Iho conditions in tin' mines have not been what tuny should have been. Numbers of men were leaving the mines to get other employment,

and this very easily demonstrates lo the feeblest intellect that llioru must be something radically wrong in the mines. As far as the demand for a pound a day is concerned, that is inoridy. in conformity with tliu trocogmsed miner's wages at tlio outbreak of war. Everybody recognised that the man who went underground to work was entitled to ILV a day at flint time. Tlio Government Statistician lias proved that 12s. a day at tlio outbreak of war was us good as u pound 11 day to-day. That is the reason for the demand for a pound day." Mr. O'Rourko said that this was tlio wago that was iieinjj paid in (lie Kecfton, Kiripaki, and Nightcaps mines already. The Contract System. Ho said that the questions of the reduction of hours and the abolition of the contract system had been submitted to tlio rank and file of tlio iiiiimid, und they had agreed lo this practically unai.i mously. They attributed most of llr accidculs in the mines to the existent" of the contract system. At one period in tlio .State mine contract work naa im.. discontinued for som'o ton months. During the whole of that time there had not been one major accident. Ho spoke also of tlio weiu' on men caused by the speeding-up system of contract; work, iu said that there woro derelicts' in ai mining towns who had broken dow: .through Ihe work. ' These mou had u depend on their felioiv-imionists when thoy woro iu, weak health.

The Demands Criticised, Mr. Alison: It must astonish every con! owner hero to hear the remarks thai have boon made by Mr. O'Rourko, as representing the. federation in support of demands of the nios,t drastic, must ;: reaching, and most extraordinary character that have ever been submitted ic any body of employers iu New Zealand. He has not made out a good case in any ono respect. He stark oil' by saying that the crux of tho demands lies in tuc contract, system, and iu the. reduction of hours. There is no doubt that he is perfectly right about that. Ho goes tiirthcr and says that if those demands are conceded wo shall have no difficulty in arranging the rest. I don't think we should, because if we agreed to that we would agree to anything. He goes on to say that-Now Zealand is short of coal because of tho bad conditions in the mines. I am coin" to ask tho federation ■this question: Are not the conditions tho Game as they have been, or better than they have been? How was it that the coal was produced before? The same living conditions still obtain. He goes on to say that the men who go down into the bowels of tho earth are entitled to special consideration, and he relers to coal mining as being an arduous occupation. He relers to the pay also that they receive." Mr. Alison quoted from the' Board of Trade report a passage which stated that in the opinion of a witness the coal miner had the best conditions of all working men in New Zealand, and was better paid for thai work. The coal miner was practically his own boss.' He worked when he liked, and in any miiio he could earn from £i 5s to Xl'lOs. a day. The same witness said that he did not think there was any other worker in tho country who could do that, and do it in six hours actual working time.- Mr. Alison went on to quoto from tho report another passage in reply to tho contention that the occupation of a coal miner was an unhealthy one. lho Board of Trado on this point had said that the occupation was relatively and absolutely no more unhealthy than any other means of gaining a livelihood. Mr. Alision said that this was exactly tho experience of the coal owners of Now Zealand. Mr. O'Rourko had said that the men were in favour of the abolition of tho contract system, for tho reason that on account of the speeding- caused >by tho contract system, accidents occurred, which would not occur if day wages woro paid. .Were men not going to work so hard under tho daily wage system? .„ , „, , t Mr. O'Ronrkc: Ton will see to that, Mr. Alison. ... ,„, , Mr. Alison: We'll see it all right. What rush is there now? Tho men are paid so much a ton: They w'ork as hard as it suits them to work. Mr. Arbucklo: As hard as possible. Mr. Alison said that he would not arguo this point further. But it was ciuito evident that according to Mr. O'Rourko they were not going to work as hard as possible under lho pound n day rate.

The Outstanding Demands. ,' "It is only a few months ago," said Mr Alison, "since the mine owners and the representatives of the Miners' Federation met and arrived at an agreement by tho employers granting increased bonuses. Tho principal reason then advanced for increased rates of pay was the increase in the cost of living, Iho present demands are evidently-based on altogether different grounds, and appear to be designed to decreaso the ouput and increase the price of coal. "The demands of outstanding importance ore:—l. Tho abolition of contracts, which includes abolition of piecework rates. 2. Reduction of working hours. 3. Increased holidays, which are to bo paid for. i. Elimination of back shift. "The above demands, if conceded, would mean 'not only a most serious reduction in output, but with tho other proposals of tho federation would entail an onormous increase in tha price of coal. ' "In that conneotion, a sub-committee of practical, technical, and financial coalmining experts was set up by tho New Zealand Coal Mine Owners' Association to advise as to the effects on output and cost of production if the Miners' Federation demands wero granted." The sub-committee reported as follows: "EFFECT ON OUTPUT AND COST OF PRODUCTION IF TEE DEMANDS of the miners' federation ai:e granted.

"1. All calculations kind estimates are based on figures shown in Board of Trade report for the year 1013, exclusivo of stores and materials, and in connection with costs of production shown in that report it should.bo noted that the figures for that year do not show tho full effect of additional war 'bonuses granted in September, 1918. "2. Based on actual experience, the reduction of output duo to the abolition of tho contract system would bo about 30 per cent., but for the purpose of this comparison it has been assumed that the reduction will be 30 per cent. "3. It has also been assumed that the proportion of wages men to howers will remain tho samo as at present.

"i. It has further been taken that the increases in wages asked for will amount to Co per cent, over pre-war rales, ns against 30 per cent, now being paid. "5. Travelling time has been allowed for at an average of 30 minutes each wav, which makes the present actual working timo (allowing for half an hour "crib'' time) GJ liQiirs, so that a sevenhour day would reduce working time to 5V hours, and a six-hour day would reduce it to i'i hours.

"6. It is not possible to prevent an inci'diso in cost of production by putting on more hewers ami thus maintaining the present output, as—(l) Ono of the demands is for tlio abolition of the back Bhift, and (2) (!:o present output from each working luce will be reduced, mid it will take a. long lime to open up sufficient additional places to compensate for tlio rcducod output per working place, oven if men were available, to open up and man iho extra places. For llioso renson? it has 'been assumed that a reduction of output, if the contract system is abolished, could not be prevented by tlio mine owners, und therefore that a decrease in the output would correspondingly increaso (he cost of production. "7. It is estimated that the result, of the abolition of contracts and the tonnage rales system would to u general reduction in output of not less lliar, ;tl) pelcent. This meany tliat I lie coal production would tall from 2,031,000 tons lo 1.121,000 lons, a decrease of-1110,0110 lons per aiinum. The increase in the cost of production from Ibis cause alone would amount, to 6". llil. per ton at tlie colliery, equal lo .£70:1,17: i per milium,' based on 1018 output. "8. Assuming that tlio present shifl rates of pay remain unaltered, Iml that the contract system and piecework are abolished, and a seven-hour bnnk-tn-bank dav adopted, Hie output would drop from ,2,03-1,000 lens to 1,200,000 lons, a reduction of 831,000 tons per annum. , Whilst a six-hour dav would mean a reduction of output from 2,0:14,000 lo i)!l!)7,fll!fl tons, ennui to a loss of 1.0:i7,000 lons per annum. In terms of money, the m>vcu hour day means an inn-fan- in I lie itr-l of iiroduclion of lis. Id. per ton, or J31.127.175 on 191S output, the six-hour

dav would increase (ho cost of production bv 17s. 3d. per ton, equal to n total extra cost of £1,1a1,3ia on tlio 1918 output.

"8. Finally, assuming that all the demands of tlio -Miners' Federation were granted, on a sevcu-hour-day basis, thu extra cost per ton would bo Ms. 10d., or JJI.oOS.COO. taking Ihe 1018 output, or, on ;\ six-hour basis, it would be '21s. Ltd. per ton. or ,i2.212,6(5(i on the 11)18 output. "10. The net a vera go weekly earnings for miners for the whole Dominion amount to X'it Us. -Id., and for truckers ,C!i 18s. These, are ,startling, astonishing figures. Thev 1 show that if the demand for the abolition of contracts and piecework and seven-hour day were granted, the effect upon the community would be to reduce the output of coal by 1,0:17,030 tons per annum. Tet, Mr. Roberts says the desire of the federation is to increase the output. "This reduction of output would increase the price of coal to the people or the Dominion by lb'. Id. per ton and would impose upon them an additional chai'"o abrogating ,£1,127,125 por annum, that" is assuming last year's output is maintained, ft is beyond doubt '.hat the output would not be maintained under the conditions proposed, consequently a siill further advance in the price ot coal would be necessary. "But the abolition ot contracts and I piecework and the institution of-a sevenhour day are only two of the many unreasonable demands made by the federation The estimate presented shows that if the wiiolo of the demands were granted on a seven-hour-day basis, that the extra cost per ton would be Hs. KM,, or a total of J81,505,000 per annum; and if taken on a.six-hour basis the extra cost por ton would be 21s. 9d or M-i-.-000 per annum, each estimate being based on the 1918 output "Thoso startling hgures show how sweepin" and far-reaching are the demands ot the federation, involving as they do an enormous increase in the price ot an essential commodity, and at the same time an alarming reduction in the supply. "Coal is tho principal base of industry and the whole community is detrimentally affected by a rise in cost or a fall in production. At the present tune one o£ the greatest needs of this country is an increased coal supply, which,, in turn would stimulate increased production in other industries, and would assist in promoting a much-needed improvement in transport. Nothing, should bo al owed to prevent the securing of the best output possible. ■ , , "Considering the demands as a whole, the question as to tho object of the federation in making them at onee^iise.,. "It cannot bo on the ground that coalmine workers are insufficiently paid, as many hewers are now earning 255. lo ■« per shift, instead of tho 20s. per shift proposed by tho federation. , "The average wages earned after allowing for any lost time or absence from work for any reason, viz., £b m. «. per week for miners and J:3 18s. per week for truckers, compares tavourably with the wa«es earned in any other industry. "There must, therefore, bo some other reason for the claims of tho federation •They are of such -an imreasonabe and drastic naturo and so calculated to reduce output and increase tho price of col that if they were designed to ruin the industr? they could not have been more effectively framed. . "The only conclusion which can bo aimed at is that the federation has deibemtelylaid itself out. to ruin the coalmining industry, prc]udicinlly affect Xr industries, and genera b" » 6 and exploit the public of New Zealand.

"CONDITION OP INDUSTRY. The 'Hoard of Trade report proves conclus vclj that coal mine owners cannot to effed with profiteering, but on ho con&hat the profits from the industty have ben much less than woi. dgive a fir return on the capital invested. "U"So S8 of the report dealing with the ro Its etc., of the industry it js tea k 'this summary stows clearly that the mining companies have, no - erased their gains from the indus during the period of tl.o war retainer 'TWb ™S llted ranged during the last six years, tor the principal collieries of the Dominion from i'l nor cent, to 5.3 per cent., the mto fortlfe whole period being ±.8 per; cent "On the same page-dealing uth " 1 = ,is a rate of just over » per ceTt o tof which the industry has to mal« Provision for return to the shareUoldJ by way of interestana hrg nart of the insurance against the libks Sill with the industry «s well « providing a conquerable part of. U o de preciation and sinking tjind charge*. "It is, therefore, evident that <m MdustrV which has only paid dividends Siting to 4.3 per cent., and which K gross profits of only 5.1 per cent Jut of which dividends, insurance, and Icirc ialion and allowance for a waebng asset have to be provided, is clearly not u a position to bear further burden, and that, therefore any material increase in the cost of production must be passed on to the public. "CONCLUSION. "Summing up tho wholo matter, the position that coal mine owners ue in L that under existing conditions, with an unsatisfied demand for coal, they could grant the federation's demands, and pass on the extra, cost, but to. do so would bo an unjust act on their part, and they would be failing in their duty if they agreed to impose such a heavy burden on the public and it would be detrimental to the interests of the Dominion generally. . •!„„«„„ "Most careful and serious consideration has been given to the whole position, Hud he Co'al Mine Owners' Association •™lHiii" its duty to its members and toState generally. has definitely decided that whatever may bo the con-semTences-I waut you fo note tho words -the principal demands cannot be acceded to or even discussed. .' ', . "The demands particularly referred to ,ue-U) Tho abolition of the.contract system; (2) reduction of hours otworkj (h) coal-hew ng only on day shift, W one shift in h hours; (5) payinen for holidays; («) payment for timo lost. "The employers are not prepared to nroceed further with the conference uue"s the above-mentioned demands are eUmi ated from tho .federation's claims. "The employers regret being compelled to adopt this" attitude, but knowing as the? do the serious, far-reaching and disa tons effects which the granting of IhMo demands would have upon the industrythey feel it their duty to adopt Clio course indicated.

The Case For tho Men. Mr irbucklo said Hint iu stating the cnso from thu point of view of the ownS Alison bad run away with himsff when using his \tiW to refute these figures of Mr. Al£on.j by reference to the report of the Boa d o Trade. The witness quoted by Hie Bonn! of Trade '.«d declnredttmt a man could cam from £X as. to M ilk. v d vTn 'inv mine in New Zealand.. Could tlr Vlison name any mine in which tho dni v average was as high as this/ J ho a ™4 as only Sis. V<l., and this was So? working dn V . Tho average nuotcd E- te Board of Trade per week per mine was only Si 15s lor 1 IMO, . li *. for 19115-17, .-M 17s. for 101 -lb, ana to X months'of 1018 17s. This: was »ot diced a world 1 * record in output, and for this they received the handsome wage of L". 15 per week. Were tho miners the only people in the country who were no to bo assured of a living wage/ A minor has to go down into the mine, ,„ < everything « favourable for. Sho™ l Kt^rfcnt n ll.«ndif Z^dt.e . „ ol 1' industry that did not. have *,',, rod living wage wi houl risk of Ms kind. As to the point made by Mr ■Mi"on »' :l1 conl WM 7,°" ,ll " ,er | h ° ,nmc conditions before the war, the ful Vis that men went to tho mines beI , l'o war because (here were more , 1 an there wore jobs ip the connn ,nd the men were forced by econon'.i to go into the mines for i'to" Had work been available out■i 11,7," miims there never would have ,t, mi""" U'-ounti, fully manned To- av the position was different. Men „-"r able to get work away from the mioV and Ihov were takim- it. Sine h' ;.. of the armistice W men had oft the State mine. He did not believe hot the men would do no work as Mr.

Alison seemed to fear, if they were paid \ a daily wage. But men would not bo i induced by necessity or by greed for gain, to run the risks that led to acci- ] dents. Tf the contract system were abol- t ished the miner would give a reasonable t day's work as other men in other occupa- i lions did. Why was it that the miners ] were tho only people who could not ask ; for a daily wage instead of the con- : tract .svst'em without causing such ■ a dislocation. In England tho , reduction of hours 'had led to an increase of six shillings in the price of coal, i Here it was contended that the miners ; proposals would increase the cost of coal by lis. Id. at the pit, or 17s. 3d. it tho working hours were reduced to six hours. According to tlio report ot the Board of Trade, a miner hewed i.B tons a day, sav, 8 tons. The cost of hewing that, coal'was about 3s. 2d. per ton. If a miner produced only half the amount under thu wage system, the cost would be increased only 3s. 2d. a ton. Ho thought there was no need for alarm as to the amount of coal that would be won under tho day-wage system. .Ho considered that the average miner would do about the same amount of work under that system as he was doing to-day. He said that all the high wages were made on tho pillars in some of the 'mines, [ and in those mines none but tho best , of tho men were allowed to work on tlio I pillars. Tho high averages made by these strong young men were .being used to innate the daily average for all the miners of tho country. 11 r. Roberts said he was at a loss to know how Mr. Alison had arrived at his marvellous figures. He declared Ihiu the statement of Mr. Alison had been unfair. He was not a practical miner, biu his cominonsense taught him that a reduction of one hour per day in the working time would not increase tho cost of production by Us. a ton. "Tho point we want to mako clea.r to the people of Now Zealand." he said, "is (hat wo aro anxious, absolutely anxious, to supply New Zealand with coal, but the only way in which New Zealand can be supplied with coal is by making the mining conditions of New Zealand such that they will attract labour to the mines." Mr. Alison's statement was not going to have the effect of drawing labour to the mines. Men would be pneking up their swags at the mines when they read It; they would at once assume that trouble was coming. In Wellington, before the war he had paid £2 a ton for coal. Now the price was .£3 10s. a ton, and it was difflult lo obtain. Mr. Alison was trying to make out that the miners were trying to restrict the coal supply still more. Miners at present were leaving the mines to get other work. Some of them were coming to work on tho waterfront. ' Mr. Alison's' statement would go no distance towards the settlement of the dispute. ■ But whether tho conference settled the dispute or not it would have to bo settled. The people of New Zealand would demand the settlement ot it. He was prepared to say that coal could lie produced under such conditions in New Zealand that there would bo an increase in the coal supply. He did not agree that reduction of hours would mean a decrease in production. He denied that the miners woro out to exploit the public. As a matter of fact the mine, owners had stood by the public so well in the past three winters that they wore tho best hated people south of the Line. Hut for the interference'of the Government tho public would have been paying much more for their coal. The delegates representing the minors knew, and ho knew, that the conditions in the mines were not good. Ho represented fully ■10,000 workers, and those workers were with the miners in this demand. Ihe initio owners were depending on the return of tho soldiers, believing that there, would.bo unemployment when they all returned, and tho men would have to go into the mines. The representatives of the miners'were going to see that, this sort of tiling did not obtain again m this country if they' could help it. people of New Zealand were willing: to pay enough for coal to give the. miner good conditions. The owners had had tho miners on toast for a number ot years. What was being asked now was reasonable and fair. If the conference would not get down to realities and dis--1 cuss tho question, the nuestion would in the end be settled, perhaps without the 1 conference discussing it at all.

"Social System Changino." Mr. Toseland said tliat tho conditions Tvero the same as before tho war, but the social svstem was changing, lungs that did very well years ago would not. do to-day. As a matter of fact no troubles occurred in tho mines' among the t.ay wages men. The pace of working in tlie mines under tho contract system was such that men could not stay at it alter the age of 45 years. Workers could not bo attracted to tho mines under present conditions. If more minors were to be obtained bettor conditions would have to bo given. The serious shortage of coal in New Zealand was due to the shortage of miners, nnd more men would still leave tho industry unless conditions miV ™ix. ' Weston asked Mr. O'itourko whether ho anticipated that tho output per man would decrease when the contract svstein was abolished. Mr. O'Rourke said that he was not a prophet, but he thought that if Hie mine owners properly organised and worked in a systematic fashion tho production of coal 'would not decrease, but would increase. , , Mr. O'Brien said that men who made high wages in mines lasted only a few years. „ . Mr. Alison: I know a man iO years of age as healthy as you are. • Mr. O'Brien said they asked tho public to take into consideration that out of the .£3 10s. a ton they were paying for coal the miner received 3s. Gd. .for hewing it, and the trucker got a ponny a ton for trucking it a chain. He was sure that if a minimum wage was instituted the effect would be beneficial. Tho reduction of hours was necessary on account of the unnaturalness of the occupation. He discredited same of the statements made by tho Board of Trade. Mr. Alison said that the Board ot Trado had made most careful inquiries into coal production, and they ought not to 1m aspersed unless tho statements against tliem could be proved. The mmers received a great deal more than 2s. 6d. a ton for getting coal. Exception had been taken to the statement that men in tho mines could earn £\ 59. to .£1 10s. ft day. In the Taupiri mine has was accounted a very poor miner who did not earn £\ as. a day. There were men who earned 335. to 40s. a day. The average, lie thought, was from 235. to 245. a day

Derelicts of the Mines. Mr. Brown said Hint lie wished to refer to tho '"derelicts" to which reference had been made b.T several of the delegates for the federation. There wero men working in tho mines Ht Denniston who had been there when he was a boy, men who had been in the employ of tho company for 30 years. The president of the union was a. man of CO .years of age, ho 'believed. It waa true that subscriptions wore taken up for men laid aside, but tho reason was that they wore physically defective, and this had caused their breakdown. Ho did not think their failing health could properly be attributed to working underground. It had been said that onlv the best men wore allow(v.l to go into the pillars at Denniston. Tho fact was that out of 7S pairs of miners only oight or nine pairs wero not allowed to work on the pillars, and the reasons wero quite well known to Mr. Arbucklo. To know that there wero a fair percentage of the men in the Denniston mine a 0 years of age.

Owners Desire to Pay a Fair Wage. Mr. Alison said tho mine owners had no desire to pay less than a fair wago to miners. Sir. Armicklo had said that tho miners would produce more under the wage system than they din to-day. A fo«- years ago they had had experience of a minimum wage at Taupiri mines. Jr was suggested by the management at the. lime the arrangement was made Hint in u short time a lot of men. would be working on those places where tho pay was made up to the minimum. In the first year the amount paid for "make up" pay was .£21)0, in tho next year ,£BSO, and in tho third year ,£1350. Jn a short time they would have had nearly all the men in tho mine on this work. When the agreement expired tho union asked for shift wages for all hands. When tho case came before the Arbitration Court the Court did not grant tho demand iu view of the fact clearly shown that men were taking advantago of this minimum wage. There had been other tests fo the daily wage system. At Iviripaki the daily wage system had been tried recently, and the difference made had been an increase in the hewing cost of coal of Bs. lid. a ton. Colonol Holgate

would give this information to the conference. Colonel Holgate: lor some three years prior to Christmas last we were working under tlio contract system. Our contract system broke down about the commencement of the new year, and the men were paid a minimum "wuge. They worked, miller the day wage system uiilil about a month ago. We had an experience which enabled us to compare the (inference in output and tlio diifcrence in the cost of production. The difference in output was 30.7 per cent., a decrease of 110.7 per cent, under (lie doily wage system as compared with the contract system. The difference in the cost of production was 7s. lid. a ton, an increase of this amount per ton under the daily wage system, and during the Inst month the increaso was Bs. id. per ton. Mr. Arbucklo declared that the contention of Mr. Alison that the miners would not work if they were paid a daily wage amounted to an accusation that all the miners were loafers. • Mr. Alison said Hint he had never imputed anything of the sort. He had never said anything derogatory to the I miner. What he did content was that ■ if there was to lie a flat wage of ,£1 a ! day the miner who had been working | hard and earning 355. a day would rc- , dues his output, so soon as he found that he could not make more than the maii I who under Hie contract system could not ' make more than 15m. a day. This was I to lie expected in the natural order of I things. He did not accuse minors of being loafers. The only regret of the I,'Oal owners was that there were so many stoppages und strikes in the mines for reasons which he could not understand. As to the figures that he had given as to tbo' increase in cost which would be the result of the introduction of the daily wage system, they had been compiled with the utmost care, and to ensure their being on the safe sido they had been mado on a conservative estimate. It had boon said that the miuo owners were responsible for the. shortage of coal. In what respect were they responsible? The coai was there in quantity. There was ample development of the mines, but men could net lie obtained to win it. Where was the fault? He denied that tho causes had anything to do with bad conditions. If it was true that the mining industry was a. dying industry, then it was not so because of the conditions, for the conditions in the New 'Zealand mines were exceptionally good. There was absolutely no comparison possible bo tween Great Britain, where the seams were small, and New Zealand, with the great deep seams in the mines here. Any man who said anything to the contrary did not know what ho was talking about. The,mine owners were prepared to give consideration to every reasonable .demand that might be made by the miners for an improvement of their conditions, but they could not agree to tlu> conditions sought to be imposed on them by Hie federation, by which conditions the production of coal would be enormously decreased, and the cost increased.

The Minister of Mines, Tho Hon. W. D. S. MncDona'.d (Minister of Mines) said that it was the duty of all parties to use the utmost discretion in discussing a question of such importance as that beforo the conference, lie had been so concerned about the coal position for the pa.st four years that lib had tried his best to arrange matters so that there would 1» no strikes and no stop-work meetings, and, if possible, no discontent. To discover the factors in the cost of coal to the consumer he had instituted the inquiry by the Board of Trade, and the investigation made had been a thorough one. The figures in the report had been called in question. One of the members of the'beard for the purposes of the inouiry was Professor Hight, and ho had made 'some 3000 calculations in tho course, of the investigation. As to the conditions in Hie mining townships lie was prepared In say that they ivere not rood, and he had made certain sugTostions to the'miners by which they could asMst the Government through housing committees to improve matters.

"Position Very Grave." There could be no doubt that the position in New Zealand was very grave. Ec was not going to say much auout what ho believed to bo a certain amount of the cause. Questions had been asked us to why there were not more miners in the mines. He thought there were gentlemen sitting in the conference who knew the reason why there were not more miners, why J" the last three or four months more miners had not been obtained from Australia. The trouble was not all on one side. He was not in tho confidence of the coal mine owners, and he did not know where they had obtained their figures, but be had figures compiled in his Department from which he was prepared to say that, the effect of granting the demands of the coal miners would be disastrous to ilijs country, notwithstanding that there were thousands of householders in the country in dire need of fuel. Industries must suffer if the concessions were given. All the present troublo was not due to the coal miners ot Now Zealand. There had been a strike in Australia, and the result had been that it had not been possible to keep the intercolonial traders going, and supplies of coal from Australia, had been interrupted. This was one of the effects ot the great federation of Labour to-day. Without discussing whether it was right or not. ho could say that it.was paralysing this country to-day. Were we to be held up because some dispute occurred in Australia? Right on top of this troublo came this demand for the abolition of the contract system. Ilie corollary to this must bo reduced output, and this at a time when tho aim of everybody should lie to increase output. He hoped that whatever eventuated from this conference nobody would turn down proposals from pique., He urged oil the delegates not to leave a stone unturned to come to a right conclusion, tie did not desire to prejudice the position of anybody, but ho hoped that the conference would be terminated in an anno°blfrWAri>iiickle said that notice had been sent to Australia from the federation because there wore men .at Runanga waitiL for work on the coal, but they could not set employment except as trucKgts "While this condition of things ob- ! tnined he thought it was proper to stop men from coming to New Zealand from Australia to take the work that should have come, to our own men Mr. O'Ro'urke also disputed the statement that, tho federation kept he Australian minors away. All that the federation did was to givo information as to the position. The miners in Australia pleased themselves. As to Professor Eight and his figures he said:; I suppose Professor Eight understands figures from the employing class side. Unfortunately ho does not 'V ,dorst, 'vii Uv from the side of the slave Probably Professor Eight does not realise that the man who works is responsible for all the wealth of the world. I .suppose I lie is a good capitalistic economist. Alter some more remarks on the questions before tho conference ho said:, lhcomj conclusion we can come to is that jou people are hostile. If that is so.then ve accept your challenge oml wo 11 go for you. If You are not hos tie hen get down to business and consider these pic posals wo have made to you. _ 1 Mr; Alison thanked the Minister for his address. Ho asked him whether as Minister he was prepared lo agree to tho main demands of the MamiM. 11 : tho Government was m favonr ofUioeo demands, then the coal o.™ers '.vouW e freed from the responsibility of piotcct,,ll.o people from the extravagant deandsnU, and the iwpoiisiM y for | the very large increase thai would he necessary in the price of coal would be on fhe Government. . „ , ~ • Mr. Roberts was on his feel: on the instant. IT« said that it would not be for fhe Minister to toko sides: in this nvitter in fhe wav ho was asked to do. The qJslion propounded the federation could discuss with iyi»*«fc in- the State mine. The workers of New Zealand were desirous ot settling tins dispute, but they would not settle it on a starvation basis. Mr. Alison-. Wc are not asking yoii

Mr. Roberts: Yes you are The chairman lierc suggested that tlo meeting adjourn until this morning nt 10 o'clock.