SIX O'CLOCK CLOSING CARRIED

Dominion, Volume 10, Issue 3196, 21 September 1917, Page 6

SIX O'CLOCK CLOSING CARRIED

BY A BIG MAJORITY j 44 VOTES FOR—26 AGAINST ANTI-SHOUTING LAW PROPOSAL TO REPEAL IT DEFEATED INTERESTING DIVISION LISTS HOTEL RENTS TO BE ADJUSTED Six o'clock closing was carried in tho House of Representatives yesterday by a substantial majority. When tho Sale of Liquor Restriction Bill'came on for committal in the afternoon, Mr.. J. Payne (Grey Lynn) raised a point of order. It had been, stated by the Prime Minister, he said, that the reduction of hours would reduce the consumption of liquor and reduoe the revenue. He asked whether the Bill should not have been introduced by Governor's Message? Mr. Speaker said that there was nothing in the Bill to indicate that there would be reduction in revenue. Ho had listened with great care to the speeches of honourable members, and some of them appeared to be of the contrary opinion, that the consumption of liquor would not be reduced. (Laughter 1 .) When the Bill went into Committee the iirst clause, on which a general debate was expected, went on the voices without remark.

On til® second clause Mr. Anderson moved at once to strike out the word "eight," and the .crucial division was taken forthwith. Eight O'clock Struck Out. The amendment was agreed to by 41 votes to 28. Following was the division list:— For 8 O'clock (28). t Bollard M'Callum Drown .MiicDoiuild Buick Massey Carroll " Myers, Colvin Parata Dickson, J. S. Payne Field, W. H. Poraare Fletcher 1 Fraser Rhodes, T. AV, Glover Scott Henare Smith, R. W. Herdinan Thacker Herries Witty Hudson Ward Against 8 O'clock (11). Allen Newman, E. Anderson Nosworthy Anstey Parr , Buddo Pearce Craigie Poland Dickie Poolo Dickson, J. M. Rhodes, R. H. Ell Russell I "Field, T. A. H. Sidey Forbes Smith, G. H. Guthrie Statham Hanan S^kes Harris Talbot Hindmarsh , Thomson Hornsby ' Veitch Hunter Walker 'Isitt Webb Leo Wilkinson M'Combs " Wright Mander Young Newman, A. K. Prime Minister Proposes "Six." The House was buzzing with excited conversation when the division was in progress, and when the announcement was made/the six o'clock members wore smiling faces, and they cheered joyously.

The Prime Minister at once rose to make a statement. "In moving the eocoiid reading of the Bill," he said, "I promised that 110 influence -would be used on any members'as to how they should vote. That premise has heen faithfully kept. (Hear, hear.) The vote has gone against the particular proposal in the Bill which was the point of controversy, and I accept the decision of the House on behalf of the 'Government Now, Mr. Malcolm, I propose to insert 'six.'" (Loud applause.) Mr. Witty said he wished to move to insert "nine," and asked priority for hia amendment. ' Tho Chairman ruled that the amendment could not have priority, and "six" remained the quostion. lyue Must be Settled; The Prime Minister: I hope ihat when the Bill goes on to the Statute Book it will put an end to the unrest that the House and the country have experienced during the past few weeks, and especially during the last few days. I want to remind honourable members of something I said when moving the second reading a day or two ago as to the step that would have to bo taken to settle this continual agitation. I want to tell l lie House that I am firmly impressed with the idea that we will have to Oo something on the lines proposed by the Efficiency Board—that the country will have to be given an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the issue of Continuance on-, the one side and Prohibtion and the payment of compensation on the otiior.. I would even suggest that the decision be by a bare majority. I will not go so far as to express an opinion on this point, because it has not been decided ■by Cabinet, but.it is a point that hss been under consideration.

The Revenue. Sir Joseph Ward said that he agreed with the opinions expressed by the Prime Minister regarding this very far-Teaching matter. The House had made up its mind Fo effect a great change in tho hours for the closing of _ hotels in this country. Ho was of opinion that the people should have an opportunity of deciding this issue, and within the next six months. Ho did not want to 6ee the issue decided after the war, but decided as soon its possible. It was not a fair Ihinj; for many honourable members of the House to put him, as Minister of Finance, in the position of having to resist proposals which would involve loss of revenue. There was a feeling that because of the saving that would be effected by a change in the law decreasing the consumption of liquor the loss of Customs revenue would bo easily reIt would he idle for any honourable member, .even with the best of intentions, to try'to convince the Minister of Finance that he would be able to get this revenuo in some way because of the increased prosperity of the people, and because of their increased savings. It was in his opinion imperative for tlio people to come to a definite decision on the issue of Prohibition or no-Prohibi-iion. But it was no use, when the country was hysterical as it was at present, running away with the * idea that the monoy we were losing in the Treasury \vns to be provided in some general way. Whoever was Minister of Finance would certainly have to get the authority of Parliament for the. collection of revenuo to make up loss of Customs dutv. When the recommendations of the Kfflciency Board, with which he was in complete accord, were submitted to the people, the people would be responsible for th" chnnge lo bo made.

Mr. P. C. Webb (Grey) said it should not be assumed that six o'clock closing had been accepted. Some of the members who hart' voted to strike out eight .o'clock were of opinion that there should be no change in the law at all. He asked if the Government, now that it hurt made six o'clock closing the Government proposal, would abolish the antishouting law. Mr. Afassey and his colleagues appeared to have got into a "blue funk" over the liquor question.

Mr. G. V. .Pearce (Paten) said he did not anticipate any grave reduction of the public revenue bv the adoption of six o'clock closing. The actual amount of drink consumed would not be reduced to the extent suggested. Hp was not ir ; favour of State control. The proper thing would fie for (he Government to control the wholesale part of the trade,

and for the municipalities to undertake the retail sales. Ho would not like to see a Government controlling the liquor trade on the eve of a general electiou. 'Six" O'clock Carried, The proposal to insect "six" o'clock us the closing hour was carried by 14 vot;s to 26. Following was the division list:— Ayes: 44. Allen. Myers. Anderson. Newman, Dr. A. lv. Anstey. Newman, E. Euddo. Nosworthy. Craigie. Okey. Dickson, J. M. Parr. Dickson, J. S. Pearce. Ell. Poland. "Field, T. A. U. Poole. Field, W. H. Rhodes, E. H. Fraser. Rhodes, T. W. Guthrie. Russell.. Hanan. Sidcy. Harris. Smith, G. W. Hindmarsh. Sykes. Hornsby. Talbot. Hunter. Thomson. Tsitt. Veitch. Lee. . Walker. M'Combs. Wilkinson. Mander. Wright. Massey. Young. Noes: 26. Bollard. ' M'Callum. Brown. Mac Donald. Buick Parata. Carroll. Payne. Colvin. Pomare. Dickie. Reed. Fletcher. Scott. Forbes. Smith, E. W. Glover. Statham. Henare. Thacker. Herdman. Ward. Herries. Webb. Hudson. Witty. Question of Duration. Mr. C. A. Wilkinson (Egmout) moved an amendment to tho clauso relating to the duration of the Act. Ho proposed to 6trike out the words, "during >.'he< continuance of the present war and for six months thereafter, and no longer," and substitute the words, "until after tlifi next licensing poll is taken, at whicn the hours of closing shall be submitted to the people." This amendment, said Mr. Wilkinson, would place the responsibility for''fixing the hours upon the people. This had already been done in some of t'he Australian States.

The Prime Minister said that ho could not accept tho amendment. The Bill was a war measure, and Mr. Wilkinson and his friends ought to be satisfied with the success they had gained. The Bill was going to causu hardship and a great deal of public inconvenience to the travelling public in the country districts. Apparently it would bo illegal for persons other than boarders to be on licensed premises after 6 p.m., and this would be very inconvenient to drovers and others. It might be-found .necessary to make some amendment of the law in this respect. Mr. Wilkinson said he would not press the amendment. The Temperance Party had already had a good win. Anti-Shouting. Mr. G. Witty (Kiccarton) moved tho repeal of the anti-shouting law. Mr. G. V. Pearce (l'atea) supported the amendment. He 6aid that the law regarding treating could not be enforced effectively, and it.had caused a great deal of friction. A law tli&t could not be enforced was undesirable from a national ipoint of view. Mr. L. M. Isitt (Christchurch. North) said that ho hoped the House would reject this amendment. The majority of the people of New Zealand were agreed t'hat the custom of "shouting" was one of the most serious evils of the bar trade. The law was not enforced fully, but its effect had already been good. It did at least provide many men with .a chance to avoid the excessive drinking that "shouting" produced. Sir. R. P. Hudson (Motueka) said he had opposed the reduction of hours, but he believed that the anti-shouting law had been a very valuable reform. It was a protection to men who did not want to drink, and" to men who were easily led to drink. . , ' ~ Mr. J. T. M. Hornsby (Wairarapa) said he would support the amendment on the ground that the anti-shouting law was not enforced and could not be enforced. An army of policemen would be needed to stop the practice of "shouting." The law had resulted only in recording oonvictions against publicans and bar attendants. , Sir James Allen said ho hoped the amendment would'-be rejected. He knew as Minister of Defence that the shouting law was very valuable. Within a year or two the eoldiera would be coming. back» and. the greatest evil thesQ men hfld to ftiw was the custom of "shouting." The men should be protected from'dangerous hospitality. Mr. (j. Hunter (W aipawa) 6aid that anti-shouting had had a beneficial effect in the country districts. Anti-Shouting Retained. After further debate the amondment was rejected by 47 votes to 31. The division list was as follows:— I?or Amendment (21). Brown Hornsby Buick M'Callum Carroll , Mac Donald Colvin Parata Dickson, 3. S. Payne • Fletcher Pearce Forbes Thacker Glover Veitoh Herdman Ward Herries Webb Against. Amendment (47). Allen Newman E. Anderson Nosworthy Anstey Okey Bollard Parr Buddo Poland Craigie Pomnro Dickie Poole Dickson, J. M. ' Reed HI Rhodes, R. H. Field, T. A. H. Rhodes, T. AY. Field, W. H. Russell Guthrie Scott Harris Sidey llenaro Smith, R. W. Hindmarsh Smith, G, H. j Hudson Statham Hunter Sykes Isitt Talbot Lee Thomson M'Combs Walker Mander Wilkinson Massey Wright Myers _ Young Newman, A. K. Adjustment of Rent; The Prime Minister moved to add a now clause providing' for the readjustment of rents consequent upon the introduction of the earlier closing hour. The I provision is that any time after Febru- ( ary 1, 1918, by notice in writing the lessee of licensed premises may require . tho owner to reduce the rent payable in j respect of the premises to such an amount as may bo specified in the notice, or, in the discretion of the owner, ; to accept a surrender of the lease on payment to tho licensee of a proportion-, ate part of the goodwill already paid ! for the lease, part, of which would not, havo expired, and the value of the fur- i niture and stock-in-trade of the licensee. It is provided that if the owner does not agree to either reduction of rent to the amount specified in the notice or to accept surrender of the lease, the licensee may apply to tho licensing district for an order reducing the rent. This application the licensing committee shall have power to hear and determine, and any order made by the committee shall take effect from the date of service of the notico.

Mr. It. M'Callum (Wairau) said lie thought there should bo a right of appeal to the Supreme Court. The limitation of the peeiod within which application could be made under the claim was not desirable. The effects of early closing might not be fully revealed by February I,' 1918. Mr. T. K. Sidey (Dunedin Soutji) said he did not, think that the tribunal proposed would be altogether 1 satisfactory. It would be better to let the parties appoint arbitrators. Mr. .T. A. Young (Waikato) said that the adjustments would bo exceedingly complicated in some cases. Lessees of hotels had sometimes sub-let, and a" licensing committje was not a body qualified to consider difficult points of law ami cquily; He thought that the decision should be left to the Supreme Court. Mr. J. V. Rrown\(Napier) said that the principle of the clause was quite sound,

but troublo would cortainly arise if the licensing committees attempted to consider .cases under tho clause. What Tribunal? Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt) said that tho clause "was unwieldly and hastily drawn. Ho did not consider that the adjustment of rent should be entrusted to auch an elective body as a licensing committee. Ho thought determination of such questions should he left to stipendiary Magistrates. He gave notice of his intention to move that in the clause "stipendiary magistrate"' bo substituted for "licensing committee." The Prime Minister said that he was not by any means wedded to the proposal in tho clause that the adjustment should be made by a licensing committee. It was put in the Bill merely as a startingpoint. It had been pointed out to him that the committees knew- all about hotels. He did not think it would be possible to secure a Supreme Court Judge, and it would not bo possiblo, as had been suggested, to get two Magistrate's as arbitrators. Ho would be prepared to accept a ribunal consisting of a Magtrate and two assessors. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh pointed out difficulties in regard to two of the leading hotels in Wellington, erccted on city leaseholds. The City Council received only moderate ground rentals, but the owners of the leases had bought out at high prices from the original lessees, paying high goodwill.. These unfortunate licensees could not claim against anybody except tho City Council, and tho Bill seemed to show that they could claim to have their very modest ground rent reduced.

Mr. Massey: I should say that in auch n case there "would bo no reduction of rent. Mr. Hindmarsh suggested that the interested parties be given twenty-four hours in which to ?übmit proposals. In such a way an excellent clause might be drafted. Mr. Massey sais it would not be j possible to refer the clause, which he admitted was one of great difficulty, to the Statutes Revision Committee of the House, but when the Hill went to the Legislative Council he would ask the Leader of the Council to refer'the Bill to the Statutes Revision Committee of the Council. The clause would be considered there, and probably amended, and the amendments would come back to the House for consideration. Mr. C. E. Statham pointed out that hotels were often held by the licensee under sub-lease, and that in the readjustment of the rent it might occur that the licensee would have to pay to, the original lessee a less rent than the lessee would have to pay to the original owner. This point should be provided for. He did not approve of the licensing committee as a proper tribunal to determine these questions. Mr. T. M. Wilford said that he did not think the appointment of assessors, as suggested by the Prime Minister, would assist the Magistrates at all in the hearing of cases. Each assessor was nothing more than an advocate for the side which appointed him. Mr. Massey said he had come to the conclusion that the licensing committee would not be a suitable tribunal, but the outting out of the licensing committee would mean the re-drafting of tho whole clause. He therefore suggested that the clanse be sent on to the Council in its present shape, and the Council would reviso it.

The clause was agreed to and added to the Bill. Payment of Rates. The Prime Minister moved to add a new clause, to provide that in places where rates are levied on annual value the local authority may be required to refund that proportion of these rates by which proportion the rent Lad been reduced. Mr. J. M'Combs said that the clause would lead to ridiculous results, because the annual value on which rates were levied was not the rent actually paid, but very much less.

Mr.. Massey said that lis. -would have a sub-clause drawn which would provide for the reference of this question to the tribunals set up, He would undertake to have this amendment inserted in the Bill' in the Legislative Council. „ ■ The clause was added to the Bill. Mr. J. T. M. Hornsby submitted a clause to prevent the sale of liquor for consumption off the premises to undesirable persona. ' Mr. Massey said that lie could not accept the clause out of hand, but he would have the point considered. The Bill was reported, with amendments, and was read a third time and passed without any debate. COMMENT AT THE CITY COUNCIL Speaking at the City Council last evening the Mayor said that they were probably all aware about the 6 o'clock closing provision having been carried in the House. It still had to go before the Legislative Council, bnt there was little doubt that it wouJd become an effective pieco of legislation in, a short time: He thought that they ought to feel, without takiug any political line and without breaking that comradeship that existed between them, that a piece of legislati.-e machinery had been passed ■ that would make for the upliftment of the community as a whole. DUNEDIN'S APPRECIATION By Telegraph—Press Association. , Dunedin, September 20. At a meeting held under the auspices of the Temperanoe Reform Council a resolution was adopted expressing satisfaction that the Prime Minister had moved the insertion of six o'clock as the closing hour of hotels, after eight o'clock lmd been struck out of the Licensing Bill, thanking members who voted in. support of the demand of the electors, and demanding that the Government proceed with the Bill without delay, and that it bring in a separate Bill to embody any proposal 'of the Government to give effect to the recommendations of the Efficiency Board.