THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 10, Issue 3195, 20 September 1917, Page 6

THE HOUSE

The Houso of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) gave notice •• of his intention to introduce "a Bill to affirm the principle that the State should own and control the Liguor -Trade" LIQUOR BILL THE DEBATE CONTINUED HON. A.-l. HERDMAN AGAINST SIX O'CLOCK MOVEMENT. Mr. C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) resumed the debate on the second reading of the Sale of Liquor Restriction Bill. The Government, he said, had asked the Efficiency Board for advice, but its recommendations were regarded by the Government as a kind of insult. Whereupon the board bad sent in its resignation. The board had made its proposals regarding the liquor trade and had met with a rebuff. The half-hearted course taken by the Government had been a disappointment to the people of the Dominion. He condemned tho liquor habit as tending to cause industrial inefficiency and to inefficiency generally. Attorney-General on the Other Side. The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN (AttoirneyGeneral) said that ne had failed to .detect, in all this war time any lack of efficiency on the part j>f any of our great industrial services, or of the soldiers, or of the business community. The efficiency displayed had been remarkable. At the beginning of the war wo were in difficulties because we were not prepared, but the degree' of efficiency eh'jj-n iu surmounting those obstacles had been astonisihug. "If," he said, "the honourable gentleman wants efficiency, why does he ask that hotels be closed at six o'clock. If the honourable gentleman were iu favour of making an alteration in the hours to prevent men from getting drink when they should bo at work there might be some reason in it. But the suggestion is that hotels should be open whilst men are at work, and shut whilst the men are at liberty. Tho very opposite should be the case. I have risen for this purpose:'l was responsible for the bringing ciown of certain legislation passed last year. I want to say that in regard to the legislation passed I can see no reason for any change except such as would give the State power to interfere with hotels when transports come into our ports. -.' "A Piece of Impertinence." "The demand now made for six o'clock closing seems to me to be an unwarrantable interference in private right, and a violation of the canons of fair play and the principles of justice. .It is true that at the present time this country is in a state of war, and I admit while the country is at war it is the duty ol the Government to see that sobriety exists m. tho community, and that the greatest possible efficiency obtains. But I venture to believe that under tho existing law this sobriety obtains. The speeches made by - honourable gentlemen last ■night would lead the public to suppose that tlie present conflict raging, m the country over this drink question ;s a deference between the Prohibitionist on the one hand and tlie hotelkeepers and tho brewer on the other. Now, I venture to take exception to tins suggestion. It is a contest between those people who believe that a certain amount of freedom and liberty should be enjoyed by the community on the one hand and tho Prohibitionist on the other. I am not a brewer, I have nothing to do with hotelkeepers. I am as free as air so far as tasy mo concerned. But I do insist upon this, that neither the member for Chri6tchurch North nor the member for Oamaru or any No-License person has any right to dictate to me what my private habits shall be." Mr. Lee: Why do you call .me a ftoLicense person? Mr. Herdman: I am very glad to hoar from the honourable gentleman that he is not From the speech of the honourable gentleman last night I should judge him to be a protagonist of the No-License Mr." Lee: Your power of deduction is small. . ~. , ~ Mr. Herdman: I deny the right ot the Prohibition Party to put the people or this country in a straight waistcoat We have the right to form our owii habits. I consider it a piece of impertinence tu suggest that they should have a right to suggest to me and other people, who love liberty, that we should alter our habits. Mr. Isitt: Can you distil a little whisky in your own house? Mr. Herdman: That is behind,the question. , , ~ „ ' ■ "Simply Intolerable." The Prohibitionists, said Mr. Herdman, wished to treat their fellow citizens like children. They said that the hotel bars we're to bo shut at 6 p.m., and that nobody was to be allowed to have a drink after that hour. That state pi, things was simplv intolerable, and he would say that the time had arrived m. New /.ealand when the liberty-loving persons in the community should rise m robe lion. Members: Red Fed! (Laughter.) Mr. P. C. Webb (GreyJ: That is what I got throe months for. Mr Herdman: "The time has arrived when the liberty-loving section of die community should rise ■ in . rebellion against the despotic section which stands for No-License. Who is behind this movement? It is idle, to tell me hat the Prohibition Party is not behind it. Ever since the war began they have been «»; deavouring .to make use of the sai toi tho purpose of consummating, ilieir polil cal aspirations." The business men ho we 4 said to be behind he movement were simply Prohibitionist*. Pho statistics showed that a most satwlaotor> condition of sobriety prevail* in Ne« Zealand at the present time. . J hero wno no need for 8 o'clock closing in hie opinI on He would vote for the mamtouanco of 10 o'clock closing if tho opportunity I offered. Tho only alteration he thought desirable was the giving ot power to the '■ Government to close hotels .it iMcisaij > when troopships were arriving and demiting. iheVicestat,st l cs. ? howe. a net decrease in crime last year of 3100. The chief decrease was in drunkenness. It Trtntham Camp in 1915-16 there were 307 cases of drunkenness. In .Jlb-17 lie 1 number was 203. This reduction must > be attributed to the n» t «\'°» t, |¥ l , S wiiTeJr mid been administered to the best f of his ability. The ch.e d.fi.cu.ty was J in the country districts. There had been KG convictions for breaches of the wili- > shouting law. The .regulations designed " to prevent drinking in undesiraolc resorts • had been effective. The financial argu- > nicnts that had been advanced by I roln- ' bition advocates were not sound. If people ■ were debarred from spending .£2.000,000 • in (trmic, they would probably spend it in some other form of extravagance. There was no justice in the refusal to pav compensation when interests in the liquor trade were extiiiguish-jil. 'tic . liauor trade had beoc, granted certain

rights, and now it was proposed to extinguish them partially by i educing tho Smra of trade. Tho publicans wore carrying on their business under the law, and it was not just to tear away their rights without paying compensation. A wrong wiis being done to these men, and no hand was blacker than the hand whith refused fair play. There were hotelkeepers and brewers who were respectable and good-living men, and they should not be slandered as a class. The Prohibition Goal. Did the people of New Zealand realise what all the agitation was leading to? Six o'clock closing was simply the, thin end of the wedge. The people who vero demanding it had for their coal national Prohibition, which would prohibit the manuiaoture and sale of alcoholic liquor in the. Dominion. Unless the reasonable members of the community were active there would be a real danger of that state of affairs being ordered by the taw. He did not believe national Prohibition could nover exist as a matter of fact. The immediate danger was the closing of the hotel bars just at the hour when people were most likely to wish for somo refreshment. If six o'clock closing were carried he would do his best to see that it was enforced, and he did not believe the people would tolerate it very long. The Minister added that he hoped tho time would come when the element of private profit would be eliminated from the liquor traffic, and the perpetual agitation settled in a sane and fair way. He knew there were hotels in Now Zealand where decent peoplo wnild not care to stay, but there were places just as bad in the Prohibition districts. Dr. H. T. J. THACKER (Christchurcli East) denounced "tho six o'clockers." He contended that alcohol was a food, and that nothing but harm would come of taking it away from tho people. Th Government's Difficulties. Mr. C. J. PAKR (Eden) said that after listening to the speech' of the AttorneyGeneral he could understand the difficulty that faced a National Cabinet in framing a Licensing Hill. Ho himself was viewing the proposal of the Bill from a national, and not a social, point of viow. The Bill was a compromise, and the bulk of the people oi' the Dominion would rather the Government had gone the whole way and proposed six o'clock closing. The attacks made mpon the Prime Minister in this matter were quite unjust. Mr. Massey had a very difficult position to fill. Then it had been suggested that the Hon. A. ; M. Myers had influenced the ceciaion of the Government. He had known Mr. Myers for very many years, and believed that Minister was honourable enough not to take any part in discussions in Cabinet in matters affecting the liquor trade. Hou J. A. Hanan: I can bear that out. Mr. Parr said that the Prohibitionists naturally wore behind the six o'clock cmstiig agitation, but tho movement extended far boyond their ranks. Very many men who took liquor were now demanding early closing. -The Dominion under present conditions' could not afford t.> continuo spending over annually on drink. The war had to be won • with money as well as men, and the waste in connection with the liquor could not bo denied. The Attorney-General had not been logical. His argument against enrly closing as an infringement of the liberty of the subject was an argument agnTnsT any closing hour at ml. Why should the liquor trade bo compensated for early closing in war time when the small snbpkeopera who was called into tfio forces, received no compensation at aft for the closing down of his business, nquor was prohibited entirely for Oie war period in six of the seven provinces of Canada. Mr. W. T. JENNINGS (Taumarumu) said he had supported the Prohibitionists in' many things; but the mpro they received the more they asked. They had no breadth of perspective, and were siniuly creating friction. War Economy. Mr. G. V.PEARCE (Patea) said he supported six o'clock closing under war conditions, on grounds of national economy.. There was no guarantee that the war would be over three years from now. and the National Government ought to be doing everything possible to curtail public expenditure and check extravagance. Tbo Government had not gone far enough in promoting economy. Money was as necessary as men wero for the. winning of the war. The hotelkeepers were not entitled to compensation. The value of their licences had increased rapidl.v in recent years, and they were well able to make their share of war sacrifice. He agreed that tenants with short • leases wero entitled to somo measure of protection in order that tho owner might help to bear loss caused bv early closing. The man to pay was the man who hnd enjoyed the benefit of the liquor monopoly. „ , Mr. K, A. WRIGHT (Wellington Suburbs) said the demand for early closine was supported by tho Prohibition Party, but it had not been initiated bv that party. The Prohibitionists had never been in favour of tinkering with tho liquor traffic. They demanded its abolition. The Attorney-General had admitted that there should bo restrictions on liquor sale when transports returned. If that was sound, and he believed it was, it was nlso sound that there should be restrictions when tlie troopships went away. Mr! Wright maintained that the extension of the period of the licences from three years to four years by the postponement of tha licensing poll was as much a breach as tho reduction of tho closing hour from 10 p.m. to 8 p.m. Mr.-Massey had offered the House eieht o'clock closing, but his own electorate, Franklin, had voted for National Prohibition. The Prime Minister had a direct mandate from his own electorate to wipe the whole trade out. The electors of Sir Joseph Ward's electorate had voted for National Prohibition by a bare majority. The. Minister of Railways was in tlu? same position. These Ministers professed to be democrats and thev ousht to trust the people. He was not -n favour of eight o'clock closing, which would be valueless from any standpoint. He would prefer to see tho hour remain at 10 o'clock. If the Huuse eoti'.d not support G o'clock closing he would prefer to see things remain as they were. What Effect on the War? Mr. E. NEWMAN (Rangitikei) said that the- Attorney-General Had made a strong defence of the. Trade from the Trade's point of view, and many., members had given the Prohibition point of view. Ho was not a Prohibitionist,, and he regarded the question solely as this: What tll'ect will the legislation have on the winning of tho war?,He had pledged himself to voto for the measures of the , National Government so far us they affected the efforts we could make towards winning tho war. He unjlorstood that about four millions a year were sjient on -liquor. It was his opinion that in the first war session Prohibition should have been declared, and that the National' Government had made a great mistake in sot declaring for total prohibition then. It would , have been carried, and it would i have been accepted by the ' country. He would like to see the Gov- . ernwtfit prohibit the . importation of • spirits from the Motherland during the . war. He did not see how men could vni joy spirits when they knew that every . gallon of spirits exported reduced the i food supply of the Mother Country. AU», ■ the consumption of whisky reduced the ■ efficiency of tho consumer, as well as i wasting'his money. And we should not . waste money in these days. The Gcvi eminent should not allow the people to - waste money on whisky. It would be ; very much better for the country if liu> • money now wasted in lifiuor flowed into : productive channels. There might be ■ loss of revenue from Prohibition, but !!'" i loss would not continuo long. Increased . production would result, and there would . be a general increase in .prosperity, mw ) in the revenue from other sources. The ) men who had gone to the front had : 'done their duty manfully, but tho people , romnining behind had shown no such fine t spirit in refusing to dock themselves of 5 a luxury. Ho deprecated very strongly i the attacks made by some honourable - members on tlie hotelkeepers of thiscouiii--1 try Many of them were admirable men, ' It was true that tjiey would suffer by - the legislation, and he sympathised with ■ them in that lass, but in his opinion re- • strict-ion of liquor sale was necessary. He 1 iioned all the loss would not be made to fc fall on tho licensee, but that the ownei • would be made to bear a share of the } cost Tie honed that six o'clock closmc 5 would be carried, and he believed Hint •! - it were carried the coming of Prohibi--1 tion would be postponed for a long time,

- If a poll wore taken now ho believed that 3 Prohibition would be carried. Minister Supports Six O'clock. r Tho Hon. G. W. RUSSELL said that i- tho question was not one of party, and I monibors wero free to voto as they plcas--1 ed. There had been a vote on the ques- " tion. last year, but since then innnv ? things had happened. The year that had * passed had seen a record of disaster that thinking men could not lail to -iyparently the end of the war was no nearer. Nobody could predict the dato of tho D declaration of peace. New Zealand was ? on tho eve of calling up the married l men to take their places in tho firing 0 line. He regarded the Bill as a war 1 measure designed to bring about ine creased national economy and national r efficiency. The Dominion had undcr--0 taken enormous financial responsibilities, e It had raised old-age pensions r,a a war t measure, and proposals wero now being b made for the increase of soldiers' allow--1 ances and pensions. Sacrifices were ber ing made on all hands, and a further e sacrifice, not a very serious one, was r being asked under tho Bill. The word r sacrifice could scarcely be used in such 5 a connection. Early closing meant e simply a reduction in indulgence. The !- drink traffic represented the worst exv travagance in New Zealand to-day. It ;1 was a greater source of extravagance t than any other national habit. A Cause of Waste. r It had been stated that the abolition *' of the liquor trado would mean to the ' State a loss of ,£1,000,000 annually in s revenue, added Mr. Russell. But the sum of nearly .£5,000,000 spent annually I by the people on alcoholic liquor would 8 bo diverted into less wasteful channels. J He was not a Prohibitionist, but he had t no hesitation in saying that a very great deal of the money spent in liquor was worso than waste. The beer brewed in New Zealand last yeai- had required tho uso of 840,000 bushels of barley, at a r time when the Government was being " forced to arrange for tho importation " of 1,000,000 bushels of wheat, which J presumably could have been produced ' locally instead of the barley. His cxJ poriences of the seamy side- of the liquor \ traffic in his capacity of Minister of II Public Health and Minister of Hospitals I had shown him of the ravages wrought 6 by the liquor traffic. Ho believed that ' c if six o'clock closing was carried there e should be wet canteens in the camps, e sinco otherwise all the soldiers would * be made teetotallers by compulsion. The ■■ soldiers would only reach town when * the hotels were closed. That would not II be a desirable state of affairs, and it '• would bo better to have wet canteens i with limited hours. There was another f aspect of • '.he matter. If six o'clock '' closing were carried many a.young soldier would be saved from the conse- ~ quenoes of acts of drink-induced folly. 8 It was a fact that the drink traffic caused a great deal of trouble in connec- '■■ tion with the treatment of. the invalided f soldiers who camo back to the Domin- * ion. Only recently he had been comJ polled to move the" men from the Otnki d Sanatorium to the Canterbury Sana- " torhim in order to get them out l of 11 reach of drink. Mr. Russell lidded that ? after tho war the whole question of the \ relation of the liquor trade to tho people \ would have to be discussed. He did '' not know if the existing evils wero to ? be found in State control or elsewhere. 1 He believed that at the present juncl turo a substantial majority of tho peoplo 1 were in favour of six o'clock closing. 6 He knew that tho movement had stip- ! port from peoplo who were not Prohibitionists. If at the end of another year '■ it was found that early closing had not , solved the difficulties, then the people could go a step further. Ho would voto \ for six o'clock closing. ; Mr. Witty Is Indignant. i Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) strongly '. opposed early closing. He scoffeel at the big demonstration that had been held bv the six o'clock closing people. He declared that the procession was 'a rabble." "And," he said, "they were e the same people, or they were led by r some of the same people, who came along - hero to Parliament and tried to get e hold of Sir Joseph Ward and drown . him-. (Laughter.) Yes, they were led ; by tho same man as came here five years I ago, and the gates of Parliament had to •• be closed against them. Mr. Massey e was to them an angel at. that time. v Mr. Harris: Ho is still, e Mr. Witty said that he did not belicvo s' there was any solid opinion behind (ho e six o'clock closing agitation. He dei- clared that, the six o'clock people were 1 just as bad as the Germans in tearing i- up tho contract made with the liquor t trade. He was sorry that the life of e Parliament had been extended for a r year. That was the greatest mistake v the Government had made, n • Mr. Payne: You ought to6ign my rer quisition. I've only, got ten names yet. You haven't signed it yot. i- Mr. Witty: Oh, yes; I signed it with e my Bill. The Prime Minister side-track- '. Ed me with that. t Mr. M'Callum: And you wero very r Erfad. „ o Mr. Witty denied this. He was sini- cere- in his desire for another election. > He was snre that tho early closing of a hotels would cause unrest of all kinds. f Mr. P. C. WEBB (Grey) said that tho ;. anti-shouting law had converted decent e men into sneaks and hypocrites, in order i to get drink. It converted good citie zens info evaders of the law. It was s absolutely humiliating. . He was ope posed to six o'clock closing becauso ho s believed it would tend to'promoto drinko ing in homes. t A Monopolistic Trade. '• Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said '■' it could not be denied that the liquor '" trade caused loss of nntional efficiency. 0 The liquor traele did an enormous S amount of social and financial injury to 1 tho community. Nine o'clock closing '" would have been carried in 1916 but!for 11 a mistake in a telegram, resulting in 'i tho defeat of tho proposal by one vote. He believed that the reduction of hours !" would bo carried on this occasion. The ? supporters of the Trado were very blind " if they could not see that the end of the i present agitation would be total Prohibi- , tion. The bulk of the people regarded the Trade with alarm, as a huge and ! ' arrogant monopoly. The net result of the Trade was nothing short of disaster. He would support G o'clock closing, i Mr. G. R. SYKES (Masterton) said his , constituents had his pledge that ho p would support 6 o'clock closing. The peoplo of the Dominion had accepted f without complaint all the sacrifices im,j posed upon them by the war, and they demanded now that the liquor traffic n should, cease to bo a cnuse of waste and j inefficiency. He was sony the Governp ment had seen fit to (lout fhn opinion f of the people by bringing down n Bill il proposing S o'clock (dosing. The Atlorf ney-General had said that tho hotel ac- !(• coinmodation in Mnsterlnn was poor ben cause of Prohibition. Tho Hon. A. L. J}' Herdman ni'ght get that impression, but i for people of loss exalted tastes the town « of Masterton was entirely, satisfactory. i No le?s a person than the Chief Justice ,i bad paid a tribute fa its nrnspHtv. ,i its cleanliness, and its freedom from » crime. Tf all parts of the country wore . like Masterton, one gaol would hold all ,t Nev- Zonland's prisoners. I Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchureh South) , declared himself a supporter of six o'clock .." closing. He was at soinn pains to .-ombat ~ the opinions offered by the AttorneyGeneral on tho theme of liberty or l'roe- ,'> dom. ~ . , _ Second Rcadinq Carried. it Tho debate closed unexpectedly at IMS ,■- p.m. Sir James Carroll rose and moved o the adjournment of the debate. The le Prime Minister said be could not accent in the adjournment at that sfage. He did o not think, the pronosil was a fair one. Ie The Speaker then proceeded to out '" the motion for the second rending. The d "Ayes" mndo • ;!,c ' ir voicM nenrd, and i' the Speaker declnred tho motion carried. .: ' just as two members rose to their feet ie i with the intention of speaking. Some d I members -had intended to call for a diviln I Bion on the second reading, butthey were » I not- in the Chamber at the moment, if ' The Bill was sot down far committal iy this afternoon, and the House rose at | 0 11.15 p.m. . !1- ~^~