PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2816, 6 July 1916, Page 7

PARLIAMENT

MILITARY SERVICE BILL ' .: ' THE RELIGIOUS OBJECTOR . POSITION OF QUAKERS . The . Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m. . On the motion of SIR FRANCIS BELL it was resolved that the Standing Orders should be so far suspended for the remainder of the session as to allow the Government Bills to pass through' all stages-at one sitting, and that local Bills should be similarly treated, after being reported from tho Local Bills Committee. The Land and Income Tax Bill was received from the Lower House and read a first time, the, second reading being made an order of the day for Thursday. The Council Tose at 2.35. THE HOUSE The House met at 2.30 p.m. Mr. GEORGE HUNTER.. (Waipawa) gave, notice to' ask the Prime Minister, whether ho will "endeavour ,to arrange with tho British Board of Trade not to take more than half the season's output of cheese, and whether/' if 'the suggested arrangement is made,-equal facilities for the shipment of chccse to the London market will bo given to private shippers .as are now given to shipments on account ;of the Board of Trade..' ' ; Mr. J. V. BROWN (Napier) gave notice to ask the Minister of Finance whether he' would ' introduce legislation to take all profits made by racing'clubs during "war time. He stated that some clubs ■were"' giving their profits for patriotic purposes, bat others were not, and for these some legislation was necessary.' MILITARY SERVICE UPPER HOUSE AMENDMENTS THE RELIGIOUS OBJECTOR : iThe Hon. J. ALLEN (Minister of Defence) recounted the amendments mad# by the Legislative' Council'in! the Mili.taiy.' Service Bill. . He! enumerated .the minor amendments with -which ho . proposed that the House should agree, said that he .would ask the House 'to disagree'with certain other detail' amend-ments.-Chief among these was the addition to Clause 18 of a provision that religious tenets or beliefs'might bo, inads a ground'of objection by a Military Ser- | vice Board. He asked-the. House to. disagree also with the clause intended to empower the Government to set up a Ixiard of final appeal. He also • asked the House to insist- on the rotentlon nt tile ■ clause (struck' out' by tho council) providing' that' the employer should not have the right of appeal if the employer •was the . father; or mother Of the men concerned. ' He ■ moved accordingly that certain of tho amendments (named) lie agreed to. and the others disagreed with. Rejecting Enemy- Aliens, -Mr.. J." PAYNE (Grey. Lynn) said lio was particularly interested in one of the amendments with which the Hou» •was asked to agreed-Clause 6a—rby the Commandant was given power tn tilschargo from the Reserve a person citner of whosb parents was or at any timo had been by birth, naturalisation, or, otherwise the subject of an enemy nation, | He would have liked to see tho clause made .more drastic. • " ■ Plea for the Quaker.

Mr. L. 31. ISITT (Cliristchurcli JTorth) said he was surprised at the action of , the Defence Minister in now proposing . to object to tho clause to give relief .to the conscientious objedtor after the Minister had submitted, to tho Honse. MM; voted for, a similar clause, whioh-was defeated.; •He wished, that Minister " had" shown a' little Sympathy with tho amendment introduced in House. His own opinion was that all danger of evasion could be provent«l by making sufficient provision for-alterna-tive service. Mr. /. Isitt went, on to plead ' for consideration foi the religious objector, and urgec. that the House ought to sliow such consideration i>v accepting the amendment inserted tho Legislative Couiioil. Ho contended that tho relief proposal was _so saleguarded that it could not possibly: allow . any simulators to escape'. "'e' l '- ob " ligations. Thore was a section of Labour containing a few men who were disloyal in their opposition ' to' military service. He did not say that these, men were many, but they existed. • ■Mr. M'Combs: I don't think there are half a dozen of'them in the country. • Mr. Isitt: The member for Lyttelton ■ tells us there are not lialf a dozen m : the country. I have talked myself with more than half a dozen of them. 1 liayo been asked by more than half i n dozen out of a group of Labour men iii what way Gennan rule could be worse /■ than British nils, and I- have hoard them ' declare with , oaths that they would not light for tho sanguinary .country;. "While this was so, he continued,-while thero woro luon in the country who were disloyal, it 1 would not be wise, to spread the feeling of discontent by. tryirig to compcl men who wero unquestionably loyal. Mr. Jsitt moved ail. amendment that the House agree with - the clauses providing for'.tho .exemption of religious ■ objectors.

i "Snuffling Hypocrites." Mr.' J. T. At. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) said that if all Quakerswere liks thoso Afr. Isitt had in 'niind, tho question would be one of no' great difficulty, but the Quakers in New Zealand, or some of them, had done their litmost 1 to deter men from enlisting. Indeed, one Gill, in Auckland, had been fined for something of the sort. He declared that'all the Quakers aud all the Pacificists wero not sincere in their , opposition to fighting lind bloodshed, and history showed that on occasion the people who now claimed that warfare was. and always had been forbidden by their faith had fought and had done other things very hard to justify. His most severe accusation was that they were' "snuffling hypocrites trying to shelter behind tho cl'L 0 '", \ vll °, """Pht to be compelled to tight of be kicked out of tho country." Relief Nccessary. • Dr. H. T. J. THACKER (Christchurch sa r that'very fine work was done at tho front, by the religious objectors rendering non-coiubatant service He thonght we should not compel religious objectors to fight, and ho refused to believe that it would ?>e • impossible to pe them relief without allowing shirkers to shirk. ■ N • P' H. POOLE (Auckland AVest) faid Ins sympathies were for giving relief to the religious objeotor. From the point of new of expediency, he urged that it would not be wise to' mako martyrs of these objectors, for the |Oreation of even a. cheap martyrdom would not make the administration of tho Act easier. • Mr A. H. HINDAIAJtSH (Wellington Houth) supported Air. Isitt's amendment. A Constitutional Point. Air. J. AI'COAIBS (Lytteltonj said that when wo were following the example of Britain in putting this arbitrary law on tho Statute Book, we should at least go as lar as England had gone in granting exemption to the conscientious objectors. He raised a constitutional pbTnt.—that our Parliament was competent "to make laws for tho peace, order, and good government of New Zealand, provided that no such laws shall be repugnant to tho law of England." And he argued that this uncompromising compulsion of religious objectors was "repugnant to tho law of England." Dr. NEWMAN (Wellington East) said that, as "ono of the paltry politicians of this House," ho felt at a discount in l'ol- > lowing tho distinguished and iwble states, inati who had preceded him. tie "saw less objection to this clause providing for religious exemption than in the clause proposed before in tho House. England had provided for the religious objector, Mid bir non-combatant corps had'proved to Uo quite a success. There were many Tiseful jobs that could bo found for those without hurting their religious Atr. P. C. AVEBB (Grey),, referring to Britain's action in establishing a non-

combatant corps, said that in spite ot that hundreds of men wero going to prison for conscience flake. Tho Hoilso of Lords was satisfied to exempt conscientious objootors, but the Houso of itoj presentatives hero ivas not. Clerical students, he held, should all be exempt l'rom service. ... Mr. T.. A. H. FIELD (tfeisoiO fi aid that Mr.'Webb had remarked that there were no disloyal men amongst the. workers, but that this was not the case vras shown by the fact that only the other day a nianhad been convicted at "feymouth for disloyal utterances, and fined. In the course of a brief passage-iit-mms with Mr. Webb, ho said that the latter member had been absent so .wuch .ironi his owe' district during: tlio recess that lie apparently did not kno\r wis happening there.- Ho also pskea what Mr. Webb, had done to assist reoj-uiti.-g. Ho (Mr. . Field) had' addressed more meetings in the Cfre^ - district than Mr. Webb had. "I have addressed one meeting there," added ill'. Field, "and that is . more than tho honourable gentleman has addressed." . , , Mr. J. PATNB (Grey Lynn) supported the granting of exemption to religions objectors. Facts About Quakers, Mr.'T. M. WILFOED (Hutt).said he did not bolieve that the views expressed by tho momberfor Christchurch. North •represented tho views of tho Quakers ; of this country, who were supposed to be tho chief religious objectors. Ho did not believe that the Quakers of .New Zealand asked for exemption, although ho did not deuy that there wcro Quakers who asked for it.' He himself was tho son of a Quakeress, ajul of her family, and of her bister's and her brothor's family, every eligible male descendant had gone to tha front. She and- her sister had canvassed for recruits, and had written to him on the subject, offering suggestions. He knew one Quaker-'who had a . family of Eve—four sons and a daughter; Tho four bohs were fighting in tha Army, and the ' daughter,, who was a trained nurse, had beon serving in France em- since the war Vegan. Mr. Isitt: Havo they abandoned their religion? Mr. Wilford: No, they.have not. But they don't believe that this tenet really belongs to the Quaker religion. Ho said that according to Mr. Isitt the Quakers were willing to render non-combatant service. In other -words they wero willing to "help others to fight while declining to fight themselves. Ho did not beliovb it. It was a slander on tho Quafc crs. of .Ken' Zealand, and to exempt them from;combatant:service would bo a slur iipon them.' He know only one Quaker who was opposed to military service, and on the other side lie had nine relatives in the firing line'who ivore Quakers. And they <lid not need to bo conscripted; they volunteered;' His own honest opinion was that tho Quakers did not desire exemption. Mr. A. ,WALKER. (Du>nedin North) supported, the amendment. Mr.- G. °R. SYKE3 (llasterton) said that he hadi only one Quaker in his dis-trict,-and that man had sent his only son to the front. He supported tho view of the member for Hntt that it would be a slur oil; the QarXers of New Zealand to exempt tliem.

The Quakers' Rules of Conduct. Mr. C. E. STATHAM (Dunedin Central). said he, proposed to vote against the amendment. .It this a'tenet of tho Quaker rcligioii that they must not bear linns. - Mr. Isitt: The central tenet. Mr. Statham said that it was' also a rule of conduct among the Quakers that they must not. pay taxes for the carrying ou of a ivar. Was tho member for ChristchuTch ; North going to ask that 'they be exempted from taxation? " Jlr. Isitt: They haven't raised the question ;with .me. . i Jlr. Statliam: It doesn't matter whother. they have raised the question or not. Are you going to violate the tenets of their religion by making them pay taxes? .He went on to 6ay that it .was also a rule .of the Quakers that they must' not help the army in any way in war- It was suggested that these people were to render non-military service, but did not this mean that they were to help 'in tho .war?... Even those Quaker.'! who were doing" ambulance work in France were violating the rules of their religion.. . To ' carry the ' Quakers policy of .' rion-resistace to an extremewere the Quakers prepared to allow tho heathens to overrun the earth without drawing the sword to prevent them ?, Ho believed they would do no such thins. The time held come when tho Quakers, like the people of other religions, would have to change their ground to meet cEniiged conditions, and now tho timo had' como 'to strike. Tho enemy was at our gates, though perhaps in physical distance a-lon<j. way, iroin here.

..The Division. , The amendment, was defeated l),y 35 votes' to' 19. : . i». • i Tor the amendment (i!>)'- -VS I ®** Crai"ie, Ell, T..-A. H. I'ield, isitt, M'Callum, M'Oombs, Mauto' ,«? 01 , ' Poole, Sidey! JSmitn, lalbot, Thaoker, Veitoh, Walker, Webb, Wilkinson, the amendment (35) : Allen, Anstoy, Anderson, Bollard, Buddo, J. b. Dickson, W. H. ITieLd, Fletcher, horbes, •Kraser, Glover, Guthrie, Harris, Herd'iaan, Homes, Hornsby, Hunter, Jennings, HacDonald, Malcolm, Massey, AlverSi E. Newman, Ngata, Nosw'orthj, Peavco, Pornave, R. H. Ithodes, 1. »\- - Scott, Statham, Stewart, AA aro, Pair: 'For the'amendment, Hindmarsh.' Against, Sykes. Air. D. Buick was at first recorded a* voting- against the amendment, but he made an explanation that by a mistako he had been paired with Air. Hindmarsh, who had gone home under the impiession that he was paired. Air. Butck, thoicfoi'D, asked that his vote be recorded loi the amendment, aud this was done. The original motionwas carried. The House rose at 11.20 p.m.