PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2809, 29 June 1916, Page 7

PARLIAMENT

MILITARY SERVICE

THE ESTIMATES LEGISLATION TO COME STATEMENT BY PRIME MINISTER. The Legislative Council met at £.30 p.m. The. Speaker (the Hon. C. J. Johnston) expressed his deep appreciation of tho motion of condolenoo passed by the Council upon tho death of his daughter, Mrs. Levin. MILITARY SERVICE BILL. ' Tnß RELIGIOUS OBJECTOR. • ■ The Military Service Bill-was; further considerod in Committee. On Clause 18, dealing with' appeals,'. The Hon. J. T. Paul moved an amendment, providing for an appeal to be made by any person "by reason- of a conscientious objection to tho undertaking of oombatint service." Tho British Government, lie said, 'recognised that : the conscientious objector was a"peiraon to be reckoned with. The Council practically took up the attitude that there wore no. such persons. It was. Quito conceivablo that a man might still hold with the commandment that ho had learned , at his wothor's knee—"Thou shnlt not kill." Tho British statesmen had,taken up tho attitude that a conscientious objector should bo punished, but not - made a soldier. Ho quoted Lord Kitchener to. show tho difficult) - in dealing with the conscientious objector. Tho objector would have to bring facts before tho board in support of liia claim for exemption. Itwould improve tho Bill if some attempt • at least lyore m ado to meet tlioso conscientious objectors who would not be dragooned into doing what they did not boliove in. Tho clause as it stood pro-' vided only for a oertain section of re. ligious'.objectors, and not for conscientious objectors. v .

- Sir Francis Bell declared. that tho •amendment would sweop away the whole ground of exemption booauso of- religious viowa. A- man might bo perfectly i honest in his objection to war,-or perhaps he did not want to fight. It was doubtful whether tho Council should allow religion as a ground for exemption at all. ... Hon. members: Hear! hear! .Sir Francis Bell continued • that the ' other House had como to the conclusion that on the whole it-would be safer, not to allow religious objectors the right of appeal. Strike Them All Out. ' The Hon. W. Beehan eaid lie thought that all exemptions should be struck out. Sir Francis Bell pointed out that if this were done' the other House would have no opportunity of discussing the clause. The Hon. W. Earnshaw also opposed exemptions. A man who would not fight to protect his womenfolk from what' had happened in Belgium ought'to. be shotthat was the end of it. If the enemy came into our midst; where would a man's concionee be? .-'From' ono .joint of view his own conscience had as much right to consideration as that of any Quaker in the country. '■■ ■ The Hon.' Mr. Paul pointed out that on two' occasions, in both tho House of Commons and the House of, Lords, conscription was dealt with, and on both ■ occasions the conscientious objector was provided .for. , History had proved that men had accepted death rather than violate conscience. He admitted that if Parliament'said thesomen would have to ■ be shot, they would be shot. Every man must obey the State,'and if he did not then he had to pay the penalty. These, men would have to stand tho penalty •He stood for some who were prepared todo other service, although perhaps there, were some. who •■ would ■do no service. They would havo to stand tho penalty. There was a large scope for serving tho State outside of. active service.. -. _The Hon. Mr. Barr his opposition to the amendment. The Hon. G. Oaxson hold • that tho bravest maa in this world was the man who was prepared .to fight for his convictions. He had no sympathy with these conscientious objectors, but he felt they should be provided'for. Ho felt, however, that tho alternativo service offered should be; made vory. much stiffer, so that the depth of the conscientious ob>. jector should.be really tested. He thought, the man should be provided for rather than the cresd, as was proposed in the clause. A Threat of Trouble. The Hon. W. Ea.rn.shaw said' that, to carry the clause and refuse the conscientious objector laid the ground for what they knew was extant—the enormous determination of those outside the religious bodies provided for who proposed to make trouble. ■ ■ . Sir Francis Bell declared that this was all rubbish. The same threat' had been made in relation to the, Defence Act, but where had been the trouble?

Sir William Hall-Jones congratulated Mr. Paul upon his courageous advocacy <>f an, unpopular oause. He predicted that in ten years'. time public'opinion would be more in favour of him than of the other 'members of the Council. Ho declared he would support the cause of tho conscientious objector, because he was afraid that under the clause providing for exemption on the ground of enrolment "being contrary to the public interest," the money interests would have an undue advantage. Tho amendment was defeated by 19 .votes to 3.

The Hon. G. Carson moved to amend the clause by striking out the condition of membership of a religious body tho tenets of which forbid the bearing of arms, and leaving the right of' appeal applicable to a man's individual religious objection. ; The proposal was defeated 'on tho voices.

• i ; A Voto on the Clause. As an indication that the yhole subclause should bo struck out, tho Hon. J. Barr moved the deletion of the latter part of the sub-clauso (the former part having been technically agreed to by the last division). ■'.. 1 The amendment was defeated, and the clause retained by 15 votes to 8, tho voting, being:—For tho • clause: Bell, George, Aitken, Paul, Baldie, Moore, I Collins, '. Fisher, Hall-Jones, Carson, 'Hardy, Thompson, Harriß, Wigram, Simpson. Noes: Barr, Buchanan, IliacGibbon, Jones, Enrnshaw, Beclian, l[orgau, Maginnity. A Widow's Son. Sir W. Hall-,Tones moved'to insert tho following "proviso:—"Provided that in '.determining' which is the sole surviving son, tho board shall,'in the case of a widow, exclude from consideration any son who, being married and with .wife and children dependent upon him, is liable to 'be enrolled in the, - Second Division." Sir Francis Bell pointed out that tho right of appeal for domestic circum-. stances covered the position-mentioned. The proposal was rejected by 19 votes to 2. Alternative Work. On Clause 31a, providing alternative work for religious objectors, the Hon. J. Barr entered a protest. The clause, however, was agreed to, and progress was reported at 5.15 p.m.', when the Council rose.

THE HOUSE

The House of Representatives mot at 130 p.m. Mr. 11. POLAND (Ohinomuri) gavo . aotice to ask tho Prime Minister whether no had noticed the cablegram in tho morning papers stating that tho Priino Minister of Australia has completed tho jnirchaso of fifteen 8000-ton steamers, and whether, in order that New Zealand may not fall too far behind Australia iu State enterprise, he will consider llie advisability of purchasing tho whole of the Union Company's fleet, and a controlling interest in the. Now Zealand Shipping Company's fleet. TO TAKE MONDAYS, THE BUSINESS TO COME. Tlio Right Son. AV. ]' 1 . MASSBY movod that on and after Monday iicxt tho Eouse moot on Mondays for the trans-

action of Government business onlv. Ho said that from observations made to him by honourable members, ho thought the motion would commend itself to a very large majority of members of the House. _ The reason was that a period of tho session had been reached when it was usual to take Government business. He was not ooinplaining about tho progress mado; but there was still a large amount of business to be done. Quito a number of members had approached him, suggest ins that Mondays ought to bo taken in order to hasten tho end of tho session. Mr. G. WITTY (Kiccarton) said ho considered the motion prematura. '■ Mr. W. A. VEITCH (Wangamii) asked whether tho Government would give time for private members' Bills to bo considered after the Government business was through. Mr. 11. G. ELL (Christclmrch South) asked especially about tho Daylight Saving Hill. Mr. Mosscy: That is a private members' Bill. .Mr. Ell: But it ought to be si Government Bill. Ho argued that as thero was a serious shortage of coal tho measure should be'introduced as an urgent ono of economy. Mr. J. T. M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) said that lie hoped the Government would before the end of tho session take some note of tho coal shortago. It was very diifioult indeed for some boroughs tv obtain coal for gas production. Mr. P. C.. WEBB (Grey) protested against the endeavour of the Government to hurry business- through. Ho had no objection, however, to sitting on Monday. Sir H. POLAND (Ohinemuri) said lie thought tlio Prime Minister should tell the House .what : business was yet to como'. He asked tlio Government whether it was proposed to deal further with tho question of separation allowances for wives and children of men fighting, at the front. '

Mr. C.- A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said that if the Government introduced tlio Daylight Saving Bill as a Government measure it would' bo strenuously opposed by country members. • ' The Right .Hon. W. P. MASSEY said he was glad that tho motion had met willi fairly general support. He went on to refer to the legislation yet to come. First, there was the Land and .Income Tax Bill. There cas on the order :paper tho War Regulations Bill, which was likely,'to be discussed energetically and: at'some length. The Finance Bill, which had been .promised-last night, was an exceedingly important Bill, one of tho most important of tho session, and. likely to occupy several days. There would bo a Washing-up Bill. There would bo another measure, a. kind of "all-sorts Bill," to which a name had not been given yet, which would deal with a number of matters. After this would como the Public Works Statement, the Public Works Estimates, the Appropriation Bill, and the Supplementary Estimates. After the Bills arising out. of the war were dealt with, the Government would probably ask the Houso to deal with Bills of minor importance. Mr. Wilford. What are you going to do about the cost of living?

ACr. Ifassey said that this would yet have to be considered. The Government had done a. ?ood deal about tho cost of living already, and at somo convenient obportunity he proposed to tell tho House about it. As for the Daylight Saving Bill,. it was evident that if it were introduced, it would be. very strenuously opposed.' Beference had been made to the scarcity of coal. The reasons must be perfectly obvious to every honourable member. Coal was scarce because we were -using a great deal for transports, and because wo were supplying 100.000 tons per year to the Admiralty. He admitted that our own people had been subjected to a littlo inconvenience. Coal was plentiful at Newcastle. The/difficulty wag to get ships, and the Government bad at least one of tho best cargo-carriers afloat carrying coal from Newcastle to New Zealand. Tho motion was carried. . THE ESTIMATES , . OUR IRON ORE DEPOSITS /' PROBLEM OF DEVELOPMENT ' On the motion to go into Committee of Siffply (on tUe Estimates), ' Sir. W. jN'USVVOlt'i'Jli (Ashburton) moved an amendment about a new sdiool building in Ashburton. Tho amendment intercepted ill'other amendments, and as members did not want to talk about tho Ashbution School the House went into Committee without delay. On the rniiiss vote, considerable d.scus. sion took place regarding the work of tho Geological Department's several iv embers, advocating reports being obtained in ro. gard to particular districts. The llmistor said iu regard to a remark by Mr. \V. H. Field that he recognised tho great. advantage of Inno deposits, and as Minister of Agriculture lie would bo pleased to give any measurablo assistance to settlers in this direction.

Dr. A. Iv. Newman said that there was brown coal in many places? in the Wellington Province near the Main Trunk railway, and he hoped that n geologionl survey of these localities would be made It was also known that there vas u arblo in this district, and in tho AVairarapa district there were a number of Natural gas springs, one of which, he kuew, had existed for -10 years. He did Mot jsee why this gas .should not be utilised. Wo Minister or member of tho geological stall had yet appeared to take any interest in these springs. The Miuistcr said that it was ccrrect to say that there had been no gtological survey in the Wellington district in recent years, but as soon as experts were available the work would be indertaken. Thero was one party at present prospecting near the Rimutakas, but with what success he did not know. The springs spoken of had been reported 'upon years ago, but he admitted that what was formerly looked upon as being of no great value might now prove to be of considerable importance. Mr. H. G. Ell 6aid that lie understood it had been demonstrated that iron ore could bo profitably produced in Taranaki and Parapara. If this were true, steps should be taken to see that these deposits were developed to the fullest possible extent.

Mr. H. Poland said that the various syndicates that had tried to float companies to work these iron deposits had been playing with tiio question long enough, and it was timo that tho Government took action. It was ridiculous to allow private people to go on holding rights in regard to these deposits without doing anything. Tho deposits should be taken over by tho State. Mr. G. V. Pearce said that something was being done in connection with the Taranaki ironsand. There were also millions of tons of the sand at Patea, and tho Harbour Board there would bo g!ad to grant concessions in Tegard to it— in fact it would be glad to get rid of it. Mr. H. J. H. Olrey said that the company' that now had the Taranaki ironsand in hand was not asking for auy nssistanco from the Government beyond the bonus provided for in tho Act passed two years ago. , Mr. W. A. Veitch said that formerly no was inclined to be opposed to the iron industry in the Dominion being taken over by an English company, but events in connection with the .war tended to induce him to change his view. If the industry had been started before tho war we might'now lie sending Home shiploads of 'munitions to tho Mother Country; , Tho Minister said that tho Government had had exnerfc Teports in regard to the iron deposits, and the industry in other parts of the world, but ho was not prepared, after going into the whole question, to advise the Cabinet to do anything in the matter at present. .He thought that he was doing tho best thing . possiblo in _ the pumio interest by allowing things to remain as they were for the time being. The Mines vote was passed at 11.55 p.m. INTERNAL AFFAIRS. THE OFFICIAL WAR CORRESPONDENT. The next class was Internal Affairs, I 723. Mr. G. Witty said he noticed the amount of XIOOO for salary, allowance, and exponse9 of the official war correspondent, and. ho exprossed doubt, as to whether tho country was gotting value for tho money expended. The Hon. G. W. Russell said that Mr. Ross had dono huj best under very great

difficulties, especially nt Gallipoli. His earlier lottos from there had boon very heavily censored, and tho same difficulty was encountered by other war correspondents in that field. He was of opinion, however, that Sir. Boss's moro recont letters and cablegrams had been very interesting. Mr. .1, T. M. Hornsby said that ho con. sidered the money spent on tho war correspondent was wasted, and that tho wholo businoss was farcical. Ho moved to reduce tho vote by .£IOO as an indication' that tho appointment should ceaso and bo determined. Mr. Forbes 6aid he would like to know what contract was made with Mr. Ross. Tho Hon. Cr. W. Russell said ho was informed tlint tho appointmont was to bo for the period of the war. 110 hoped tho Houso would negative the proposal. Since hp . had joined t-he National Government, and seen tho working of tho scheme from tho insido, ho had come to tho conclusion that Mr. Ross had been an earnest and enthusiastic worker in tho interests of the peo-' plo of New Zealand. Tho articles whicn he wroto were appearing in many papers of Great Britain, and for this Mr. Koss received no remuneration whatever. JN'ew Zealand was gotting the advantago of the publication in iingland of tliQ matter he was writing. He thought it was right that New Zealand should have a special correspondent at tho front, especially now that tho troops wero in Ji'ranci*. I'Uo cost .of tho cable messages were all. borne by the newspapers. Mr. Hornsby compared Mr. lioss's messages wita those of Captain Bean. Ho declared thQat "tho whole thing has been a gross and utter failure." However, if an ttgreemont had been madu with Mr. ]{oss / which could not honourably bo broken ho would not proceed further with his amendment. Tho amendment. was negatived on the voice*. Members and Ministers. Mr. W. A. Yeitch, referring to the items travelling allowances of Ministers .£ISOO, and travelling expenses of Ministers i! 1500, said that ho thought some inoro of the expenses of private members onght to be paid. Ho did not see why all tho porquisites of this kind should be tho solo, property of Ministers. As things wore at present it was not easy for a man without private means to remain in Parliament. Ho -was not at present prepared to vote for an' increaso of salary of members white the' war lasted, but after tho war he would bo prepared to vote foe it.

The' .Hon. G. W. Kuasoll said that lie believed that there was much that was true in. what Mi\ Vfeitoh -had said. Ho proposed to submit to Cabinet proposals lie had in mind,- to givg- momliers assistance with their correspondence.. He would ask the Government to provide two or three' shorthand writers and typ. ishs. If tho proposal were carried out, ho hoped that ono or two members would not /monopolise their, services. Statistics', In reply to Mr. Veitch, who urged that greater attention should bo devoted to Ihe securing of our the Minister claimed that our system 01 collecting statistics was tho best in Australasia.-With, in the past few weeks Cabinet had approved of a new set of schedules to be collected on tho 15th of every month from wholesale houses, aud these- would b& published in the same way as retail prices were now dealt with. ■ Some protest was ■ made against tho voting of .£20,000 for tho taking. of the census, but the Minister claimcd that the work was quito a necessary one, and had been decided on after due consideration. (Eett sitting.)