PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2786, 2 June 1916, Page 6

PARLIAMENT

MILITARY SERVICE BILL

SECOND READING CARRIED

PRIME MINISTER REPLIES TO CRITICISM POST-WAR MARRIAGE CLAUSE TO BE AMENDED. The Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m. On the motion of Sir Francis Bell the various Select Committees for the session were set up. WAR PENSIONS BILL. * THROUGH ALL STAGES. SIR FItANCIS BELL moved the second reading of the War Pensions Amendment Bill. 'ilie, measure, lie said, was a money BUI, and could not be altered by the Council. He brielly reviewed t'lio amendments made in the measure, pointing out the changes made from tUe original Act. Wives were now allowed full pensions, inrespective ol' their own income. He could never quite understand what was meant by a "pension by right." If he u'ere dependent he was entitled to a pension, it not so entitled lie could not be entirely dependent. Some parents were not dependent on their, children. Pension ox right was granted to a child, aud to a widow unless her means were such that it would be insignificant., The pension was not a reward, but waß that sum which might be assumed to bo 'sufficient to maintain those receiving it. The allowance for children was being increased by tho Government from ss. a week to Is. 6d. a week. Provision was also made for those who, not being dependants, yet suffered real Ices' from the death of a soldier, and were not in receipt of adequate means, of support. The Hon. \V. BEEHAN held that parents of soldiers were obliged to go through too many, forms to secure their pension. They had to reveal their poverty to justify receipt, whereas, he held they slwuld receive ■ their pension by rignt, just as a wife did. He appealed to the Leader of the Council to mate this possible—that was, that where the combined incomes of father and mother were less than <£500, and where the sou. was a single man, they should receive pensions as of right. SIR WM. HALL-JONES contended that this would not be the last word in. regard to pensions. He held that the suggestion, of the last speaker would be far too costly. His own sympathy lay with the widows of men killed. They, h<> believed, should receive at least 255. a week, and many at that would have difficulty in living on it. He trusted the Government would later on prove to ba more liberal in this respect, especially having regard to the generous treatment extended by the Government to its own servants.

TheJTon. E. MOORE said the Government sHould'bo congratulated on the nature of this amending Bill. The Act had been widened considerably, but the suggestion made by the Hon. W. Beehan was going too far. They must not overburden the 1 Act, and so make it impossible to help those parents who really required. assistance. The wife and children should have pensions by right, but he doubted the expediency of extending this provision to otner dependants. Their treatment, li" thought, should depend upon the measure of their need.' The present Bill went far enough, and could be widened in the future if it were found, necessary. The Hon. S. THORNE-GEORGE said he' wondered why some of' the Government's social schemes, such, as the Government Life Insurance and the Government Accident Office, could not have been utilised in connection with the pensions for the soldiers aud iheir dependants. Why should not all these men have been covered for the risks they, would take in the Government Life Insurance Office? The Government should continue sucli a policy during the man's lifo. and if he were killed the money could be divided among his dependants. If he came back alive ho could continue the policy himself. The Government ha<l to, find the money eventually and even if they had to raise a local loan to pay the premiums he thought it would have been well. At'any rate he threw the suggestion out for what it was worth—he knew the subject was a very difficult one. ,

SIR FRANCIS BELL, in his reply, said that in many cases parents were not entitled to pensions. own case was one, and that of his friend, Sir William Hall-Jones another. He agreed that the pension for some wives should be increased, especially for those who were delicate.- The case, he admitted, would probably have to be reconsidered. It had been assumed that to allow about ,£7O a year to a wife left alone-suppos-ing the wife was in good health—would be sufficient. He could not agree that anyone should be entitled after the war to "live on a pension in absolute idleness. That would be a dangerous policy to adopt, and lie could not sanction it, even in the case o£ permanent disablement. They could not compare the pensions scheme with the various superannuation schemes which were in operation. Thesa were contributed to by the Civil Servants themselves, whereas the pensions money had wholly to be found by the Government. He thought the idea of the Hou. Mi\ George was not quite feasible, as what they had to insure was the granting of the pensions mentioned in the Act to the recipients and not such an insurance as would merely provide a lump sum upon death. The second reading of the Bill was agreed to, and the standing orders being suspended, the measure was passed through all its stages, without amendments.

At 3.30 p.m. the Council adjourned to Wednesday next.

THE HOUSE

The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m.

■The Hon. G. W. Eussell (Ayou) gave notice of the Christchurch Eating Agreement and Enabling Bill. Leave of absence was granted to Captain Hino and Captain Coates for sucli days as they are detained in camp by their military duties. Leave for the session was granted to Lieut. W. Downie Stewart and Lieut. T. E. Y. Seddon. both on active service. MILITARY SERVICE BILL SECOND READING CARRIED END OF A LONG DEBATE .Mr. T. W. liHODES (Thames) resumed the debate on the Military Service Bill. He said that' he would support the Bill, which lie did not regard as a compulsory measure, but simply a proper precaution. Ho congratulated the Government on having produced such a good measure, although he did not agree with every clause in it. He bclioved that the Bill should be made applicable to the Maoris, that more adequato provision should be made for married-nuut, and that military ago should be defined as front 24 to 50 rears. Mr. \V. T. JENNINGS (Taumarunul) said he liad seen. the effcct of compulsion in his young days in New Zealand, in the time of tho Jlaori wars. He had seen a corporal's guard come into an establishment and take men away from their work. In the light of his expericnco ho approached tho subject of compulsion with some caution, in order that no such thing as military despotism should be set up. He said this, however, as a supporter of tho Bill. Ho congratulated tho Minister and complimented him on the degroo of efficiency readied by tho men in the camps. • He had held a com,mission, and knev.' something of drill, but ho would say that ho had never scon troops mako a hotter showing than the, troops at Trentbam and ITeatherston hadmade on the occasions when the mefflbeiß of Parliament visited tho comDS. At

Feathorston the work of the men was particularly good,

, Voluntary System Unfair. ' Mr. W. J. DICKIE (Selwyn) first'of alt fcongratulated those who . volunteered in the past. - They : had - acquitted themselves well. He, however, considered (voluntaryism an unfair system, 110 believed in compulsion, and was not afraid of it. Why should they ask -some families to volunteer while others stayed ■behind and leaped all the Benefit? Borne tanners were perhaps : not doing their share, hut, many others were doing nobly. It was'not fair,'or'T® to . blacken a .whole olass because •of a - few individuals. He had confidence in the National Goiernment, and believed they would treat fairly the soldiers and tiieir dependants. ' This Bill had. become necessary because of the slackness In recruiting. • His own district was entirely in favour of the Bill. He believed there should be some few aiaendments,. particularly in reference to those men who were married subsequent to the war. • ' The Prime' Minister: We'll that light. .... Mr. Dickie:. "I amiglad to hear it. X thought the Government would give them. &. little latitude." He further thought that Labour should be represented on the Appeal Boards in order to secure equality and justice. He defended the Minister of Defence.from the attacks, made on him. •Courtesy and prompt replies had always been extended to him. '-.■Where-, delay. did occur he was sure it was/ because of the yast nature of tho organisation.

"Worse than a German." •Mr. J. T. M. HOBNSBT (Wairarapa) (supported the Bill. He said that there had been much talk about tho old fetish of voluntary servico, British freedom, and so on. But the fact was that Great ■ Britain had had compulsion for every war /of any consequence that she: had ever fought.' .He had had experience of it in ■his very earliest days in New Zealand. ll© Tesented bitterly; the suggestion ;that consoriptiori < was an " unworthy, thing. ' This' slighting talk about conscripts was a gross injustice' to the French people, I who 'were fighting one of the grandest fights that any nation had ever put up in the world. If Prance had hot had conscription she would have perished bv the invader's sword; Ho himself had heard men say here in this, city-of Wellington ithat they would not lift a finger to tight ' for Britain. There was a ; canker worm.in this country. Young men and women v "■ . .were, being misled- by those, at tho head ■ of a movement which existed, not for tho fouilding up of society,.but lor the tearing of it down. They were, anarchistic. i.'i'ho man who sought to. deter men-from joining the colours-to-day was worse than a German, and yet; these oblique utterances were made in the House and. out of it, the effect of which was to deter men : from serving their. country., Resolutions had been passed in, which were contained threats, to be given effeot -to if compulsion* came . into operation.. It was the workers' right to strike an<l fight , for ■ better conditions in peace times, but it was unworthy, conduct • to' inako such. i threats now. The men who: wore now exclaiming against compulsion wero .those ' - who from- first to last had .tried their ; -best to: prevent' men ,from . joining ■ the colours;' In his opinion impulsion'was infinitely-preferable to the so-called moral suasion that had been in force in. this country. To call that system" ,a. voluiilary •'systemwas absolutely, wrong,v .. _ : Mr. J. SI. DICKSON (Chalmers) said ■ that, lie, thought the Bill, ought to have been brought down last 7 year. Now that jt had : come the would support it,' and he congratulated the Government on/its introduction. He declared that the yolun- • tary system had'been a . failure. Married Men and the Call. Mr. H. J. H. OKEY (Tarariatl] said that this was not the first time compulsory service'had ,been enforced in New ■Zealand. In' ; 1858 the Militia -lot'; was, ~ passed, calling upon, all'men. bettreeh : 18 and GO years, being-British; subjects, -to join the colours. And. thero was ; no record of any very serious objection to the Bill at that time, 'although tho 'pay ' of private soldier's -was only 2s.'-' ; 6d. a day. The Bill was forced on the country then to keep the British flag'flying. So with this measure now:., No married -. men, would be called up for' a year. ::'- , .Mr.,,Massey:,-Lohger than. that. '• 1 .Mr. Okey.:.Well; a year ''at! least:' ' He 6aid that, in the meantime, the Defence Department ought not :tq accept, married men, because, every married ■ man .who . went made it possible for a single shirker ,tb stay at home. The ranks of the single men ought to be cleaned up first. ■ the Failure of Politicians.. . Mr. W. NOSWORTHY (Ashburton) supported the Bill, and, with others, regretted that it had not been; introduced earlier in the war. Ho did not know that they had much to be proud of in \ connection with the.-cfforfß-made, both at , Home and in this Dominion, to. maintain the: voluntary astern: . . J -It'. would ;havo been better to have recognised tho facte ,''earlier and havo ■ adopted:, compulsory .• military training. ; The . people had. not lailed in this war, .-.but-.-in his opinion the politicians and '.statesmen -had fniled more than any other class, of, the.communHe-. believed Britain, would .win the

'•ivaivbut it woiJd be at...a> terrible cost. | So far as New. Zealand-was. concerned he had not, favoured the formation'.bf'. , a National .Government, ' but; he : accepted the position, 'He had been .disappointed ' ; that;tho National Government, soon after its formation, ; had .not brought, down such a Bill as .this., He had practically ■ ho fault to find with the.Billinpon which he congratulated both the Government and the Minister of Defence. There were yery few loopholes-left in it. In tlio main the speeohes- in the . House, had been and ■ patriotic; but of one section, Vh'ich was supposed' to represent Labour, the satoe could not, be said. He did not .believe these, men (represented the opinion of the Labour. people as; a whole, . - ' ■ Air. Webb: 'Are you prepared to come .and see? ' ~

,! Mr. Nosworthy did not-deign to answer but continued that these men, to a large ■extent, misrepresented Labour and might ibe said to have, become the "Amalekftes of Labour." He believed the poor: and rich alike had done their share and took strong exception to the remark, that tha latter lad not , done their part. Some faulty ones might be, found, but there ivere shirkers in every section. Labour talked of its sacrifice,_ but, overy section .was in the same, position.. 'Labour was opposed to conscription-— j Voices: No,- no. ' Mr.. Nosworthy:'l am speaking 'of : the Labour members here,- and they should remember that "we have compulsion, in every aspect of our life—compulsory education, compulsory disease— and surely the most essential compulsion of all is compulsion for . the defence of the country, borne members, by their op. position, were practically practising trea601]. Mr. H'Combs raised a. point' of order, ana on the Speaker's direction Mr. Nos. .•worthy said his remarks were general, but jf objectionable he would withdraw them. Trust the Government, G " W- FORBES (Hurunui) agreed .that the voluntary system had had its day and compulsion should be- applied. Ihe Bill would take at least three months to be put into operation and he would like an assurance from the Government that proper stens were being taken It was useless calling tho present system . voluntary"—compulsion was being used in every direction. It was alleged that the bulk of: tho men who had gone to too front were workers and' that the sons of .the rioli men had remaned behind. ;Well, if that were so, tins Ami would operate against, those nch young fellows, and yet Labour was not satisfied. (Hear, bear.) Ho had every faith that no distinction as to class would be made, and that the Appeal Board would work fairly and win the confidence of the people. He quite agreed tnat some sacrifice should bo asked for from the wealthy men of the country .in the way of taxation, and ho trusted the Government to see to that. He asked for more candour on the part of.the Govern, mont in relation to its proposals. The national organisation of industries should have been tackled; in the Bill so as to prevent the depletion of vital industries, xjio financial obligations of the men to be called up should be considered, and lie would have liked the Government to make an announcement on the'subject) Mr. M'Combs: They won't do it Mr. Forbes: "Our Labour friends aro suspicious.' He added that Labour members in opposim; this Bill were il. logical and misguided, and opposed to the best interests of Labour.

As Affecting the Maoris.

Tlio Hon. A. T. NGATA (Eastern Maori) said ho wished' to epeak of tho

Bill ■ only. ■in so far as it affected- the Maori people. Thero were many good reasons why Maoris should be exempted from the provisions of the Bill, which reasons had been. set forth by members of tho House For this he thanked them. However, tho 'responsibility for the inclusion under the Bill, of the Maoris was upon the Maori members of Parliam'ent,. and not upon the Government. In. .the first draft of the Bill Maoris were exempted, but the Maori Contingent Committee, after consideration, decided that they .could not ask tho exemption. The comrnitteo had come to this conolu. sion not with any enthusiasm, cause they wished to see' the Maori Con. tingerit reinforced until tho war wa3 ended; And' it was because; of the reluctance—to use no harsher term—of some tribes to send their men that the other tribes asked for the application conscription to ' those tribes. Now, tlio Maoris at the front were appealing for reinforcements, ..and this was the reason why reinforcements must be sent. Tho suggestion that Maoris should not be sent to the front because "tho race was declining was a sentimental one. ._ He Ml'ieisd that", this fighting experience ■ would .be the .very .best thing for Jus people, for . they had .declined mainly because they had given un fighting. They had gone to fight, .not because of patriotism, but because of their innate love of adventure, because the spirit of their fathers called to them. He hoped -and believed also that the men, of the two peoples would understand one another better for having fought and bled together. Another, reason for not exclude ing the Maoris Was .that it would he a reflection on a warrior race. _ The Slaorw would lose'their self-respect if they stayed at liome and the .pakeha went. Thero would, however, bo difficulties in admininistering the Act in its application to Maoris. Some of these difficul'oulties ho ■ proceeded to ' point out. So serious were these objections that he would,.suggest! to the Government that tho Maoris be generally exempted under the Bill' as it stood, with the, idea of providing by regulation for the application of - compulsion.'' to the Native race. Mr. Ngata concluded with a little very gentle ridicule of the Englishman's horror of the term "Prussianism." Ho assured the •Hohse that the -Prussianism of Germany would compel tho English to Prussianise themselves. Prussiahism meant organisation in every respect to enable people to caffy out their work as human beings most efficiently. Prussianism would not, in' the . Englishman, take on the features which had made it so obnoxious in the German. He would advise the Englishman to take, up ■' prussianism. So long as he was English he would never acquire the brutality'and the frightfulness whichwere not of tho essence of, but 'oxcressonces of the German organisation. (Hear, hear.) . . PRIME .MINISTER SPEAKS. , A REPLY TO CRITICISM. The Eight Hon- W..IP. MASSEY (Prime Minister) said he had been very much interested in the speeches delivered in the debate, especially those by the member for H uru nui and the member for East-, era Maori. Before members made up their, minds' as-to whether the Government deserved praise or blame, he would ask them to think back to the days immediately following August 4, 1914. He admitted that the Government had made mistakes, some serious, some unimportant, but he would ask members to say whether the administration had not been a success.; The policy of ,the two Governments had.been the same—to see that' New Zealand should do jts duty in the war, and to keep the country prosperous. Of course, he did not claim for the Government all credit for our prosperity, which was due to quite-other causes. No-body-could'say, however, that New Zealand had not done its duty or that the country was hot prosperous. He agreed with honourable members that the time for organisation of our industries was fast, approaching, and the Government proposed'" to put ; the census forward in October next in order to make this organisation possible. . Post-war Marriages. Most honourable members had considered the clause declaring that all men .who married. subsequent to. August t 'should; be-glassed. as single, men was too 'drastic'.. * Ayith that. opinion he agreed, and on behalf of. his colleagues he could say that the Government were prepared to have this clause amended to a reasonable extent to meet such eases of •hardship as might be created by the application of compulsion to men who married soon after the. outbreak of war.' ■ Inclusion cf Maoris. Referring to the conscription of the Maoris he said that, the .Government were prepared even yet to exempt Maoris from the operation lof the Bill, and to allow the, voluntary, system still ,to apply to Maoris,, while Europeans were subject to compulsion. He quite understood, and thoroughly appreciated, the stand taken up by Mr. 'Ngata and tho members representing the Maori race, He was certain, however,- that the' Maoris, and the Europeans wrho already respected one another. would-. respect one another more for having ■ fought: together •in the : war. He agreed with. Mr. Ngata that some other method, of ; applying conscription to Maoris , than that proposed in, tho Bill was needed. • (' Justifying the Bill. ' 'The Government hail no reason to, complain of the criticism directed against the Bill. IThey must expect criticism of such a big measure from a S°th« M 80 . j nembere..'He believed that m the Maori War when conscription was adopted the single men were sent to the T3 a -n '116I 16 B ? ar « ed men kbpt-at home: aimed 'at enabling • the ; Dominion to do its full-duty to the Empire and of competing every individual to do his t( > ft® Dominion. No Bill ever submitted to the country- had received such..thorough preparation aiid consideration, as this one, and ai greht deal of credit for, the measure belonged to the .Attorney-General. He anticipated no real .difficulty from the systems 'of voluntaryism and compulsion existing .-Side by side in the Bill. Compulsion would only apply in a district when'voluntaryism failed. They were not going to di- ' vide the New Zealand Army into volunteers and conscripts.. His honest opinion was .that voluntaryism under th'e B-ll wouhL suffice. That was Lincoln's opinion when he introduced his measnre, and it was justified, as he believed,.his own opinion would'>be in future. The New Zealand Bill was more perfect than Lincoln s because it made no distinction between the man with a million and the poor man. Under Lincoln's Bill men could commute their sorviee for monetary payments, as 82,000 did, while 72 000 others paid for substitutes. That would not be possible here. Any man who did not answer the call, no matter who he was, would speedily be told where his place was.

About lhe Workers. , He could not agree with the member for Lyttoltoii m his assertion that it would be more difficult to ap£ly compuleion hero than in' America. Mr. M'Combs: Yoii will get tho men if you treat them properly: Mr. Massey: That'is a very poor argument. We have heard it ; ad nauseam, and I won't reply to it. But tho part of tho speech of the member for Lyttelton to which I most object, is that where he arrogates to himself the right to speak for. the. workers of the country. No class has come forward more fully than the workers, _ and I am quite sure they will not approve of his action. They are iiot mercenaries. The member for Lyttelt.on had invited the Houso to believe that ttye Labour Conference in Wellington was.-unanimous in its Opposition to Compnlsiojn. Now, was it not a fact that the delegates of tho Wellington Trades Union withdrew from the conference because they would have nothing to do with tho opposition to compulsion?, „

Mr. M'Combs: Absolutely incorrect. Mr. Massey: I am prepared to give you tho man's name. I -havo it from one of tho men themselves. Ho is now in camn, if he has not already left for tho front.

Ho had been amazed, lie snid, nt the declaration of tho member for Wairnu that there was no authority for sending an Expeditionary Force from New Zealand. As a matter of fact, the House, by n motion on Atigust 5, agreed to steps beinu tnlcen by the Government to lwvn in readiness nil Expeditionary Eoree. Later on, legislative powers were taken so that full authority was given even in the year 1014. Our Last Efforts.

Wo were now- entering upon the last stage of the war, Larger sacrifices of men

than those already made might yet to necessary, but if so he was sure that such sacrifices would be made willingly and gladly. We had to do our duty to tho Empire, and we. were endeavouring to do it. Wo also had to do our duty to tha men fighting in the trenches, and to all the 60,000 men who had donned khaki. Whatever happened and however long the war lasted, tho obligations entered Into with. the Imperial Government would be carried out. It was necessary for the maintenance of the honour of the Army that the undertaking 6hould be carried out, and he was sure that it would be carried out. (Hear, hear.)

' Need for Preparedness. A good deal had been naid in the debate about conscription and national service. He did not quite agree that the terms meant the same thing. It was conscription which was proposed under the Bill, and not national service, which was the system in vogue in some Of the European countries. lii Germany ' and Austria every man had to give two years' active service; in Prance three years, and in Russia four years. He was a supporter of national service, and he was so, not because he loved it, ■ but because he • thought it was simply folly for' Britain to go on with a voluntary army while Europe was armed to the teeth. The Empire had done amazingly well, but if Britain had had a trained amy of two million men we should not have had this war. The Empire had had a lesson in preparedness —that the surety for peace was to bo prepared for war.

Conscription of Wealth. Mr. Massey went on to speak of the contention of tho member for Grey that we should conscript enough money from the people of this country to jneot the cost of tho war as it ivent on. It was suggested that it should be taken from war profits and unimproved Values. Mr. Webb: Not in one year. Mr. Massey: Now, the honourable member' is shifting his ground. Mr. Massey said that if any Buch attempt were made to conscript tho wealth of this country as was suggested, there would come upon this 5 country such a depression as we should not recover from for very many years. Tho policy of tho Government was to. raise the necessary money by borrowing, and to provide for interest and sinking fund by extra taxation. ' Suoh .additional revenue as might be rcquned for this purpose tho Government hoped to raise by muoli the same means as the extra two millions of was raised lost year. That was to say-it would not be taken from that section of the community which had difficulty in making ends meet. . . . He contradicted.tho statement that the Government was not doing anything to make it easy for Crown'tenants to go to the war. iHe stated that ho had.passed through his hands vers many documents concerning such cases, and invariably a proper concession was,'given to the tonant enlisting. He sptflsie ako of the. settlement of soldiers ojl the land. Mr.', Wilford: .Whit, about Sir. Rider Haggard's scheme? , ... . Mr. Massey said he, was afraid the country was not big enough for Sir Rider Haggard's scheme. |lowever, ho was very cordially in sympathy with it, and he would do everything, passible to help Sir Rider Haggard; Btat the first concern of ,tho Government must bo for our own men. , '■ No Hasrty Peace. Some members luid .sMir.ed to show anxiety lest attempt should ha made to procure a ; hastily-arranged jieace. "Telegi'ams are beginning to come in to me, and I presuhio to other members; of the Government,; he 6aid,- "suggesting that we should t/ndeavour to arrange for peace." (Laughter.) I trust that, nothing of the sort will be. attempted. I trust that we shall not attempt to arrange terms of ' peace until we are able to dictate the terms, until .Germany; has received what "wo call in the vernacular, 'the kriook-ou,t blow,' and until such terms can bo imposed as will assure the peace of the worhl for many- years to come." (Applause.) The Hon. D. BUDtIO Otaiapoi) supported tho principle of the Bill,, and said lie had lolig believed,in it. The Government Unanimous.' . The Hon'."G. W. RUSSELL.(Avon),said that unless some member of the former Opposition'spoko in support of this Bill it might possibly be held that they were not in support of the measure. Ho ,regetted tliat- Sir Joseph Ward, the Leader of the Ihite Opposition, was absent through illness. ;but ho had his authority for stating ; that he hoped to bo present, on the, third reading, and declare "that-the proposals of the Bill had his. entire, support, as it had that of the other members of the'former Opposition, who had joined ithe National Government. Mr. Russell spoke at lengtli about New Zealand's part in the war, emphasising tho necessity of New' Zealand . rendering aid "to the Motherland 'by. sending forward full reinforcements! ', If these could not be secured voluntarily, they must be taken : compuls'ofily. That was the essence of the Bill. To, his mind those who opposed conscription did not understand tho feeling,of thoir onrn . constituencies. This was particularly the case with the .member for' Dunedin North, in Whose 'city the. railway ~ workers had themselves' demanded conscription, i ,Tlie Bill was based upon tho Jfcitirsial Register, and he wonld like to say that the whole administration of the. scheme of the Bill was in the hands of the civil authorities, and not in the hands of 'the military; It was not till the men were selected that the names were handed over to the military. The-.present register was not completo. but the Bill when In operation, provided for a speedy remedy of that position. The Government Statistician said that lie could see his way to work a scheme in which there were not more than 20 districts. Theso districts had already been considered. by the Government Statistician, who proposed to abolish two districts in the South Island and four in the North Island. Mr, Russell outlined the procedure to" be followed in conducting the ballot. Conscripts Will Fight. Mr.- D. BUICK (Palmerston) • strongly supported the Bill. He suggested, however, one or two amendments necessary, especially in the. clause including in' Division I those men who married after August !, 1914. He did not believe that those who married five or six months after the war began had married to escape military obligations. He expressed very, strongly the opinion that the Government should not allow; men with largo families to go to the war. Their duty was to their families, and as some men had to stay at home, those with natural obligations should stay. Ho did not believe that conscripts would fight any le6s. well than volunteers. It wa3 nonsense to say that the British . had always abhorred conscription. His grandfather had. been taken by the press gang for the Navy, and had fought, although no volunteer, like a true Britisher at tho Battle of Trafalgar. Ho was proud of that ancestor. He was very glad that the Bill had been introduced. Mr. W. 'H. FIELD (Otaki) said he strongly believed in-as complete national organisation as could bo achieved, and he had never hesitated to express his opinion in favour of compulsory servico. Mr. r. MANDBR (Marsdon) said, he had at first oposedp conscription, but had been compelled by force of circumstances to chango his mind. He agreed that there wero monetary as woll as other shirkers, and said he was prepared to assist Labour members in conscripting wealth as well as men. At' the same time it must be remembered that this could not he done without it recoiling upon the workers to some 'oxtont. Mr. J. A. IfOUNGl f OUNG (Waikato), supporting tho Bill, spoke of tho extreme of the need for men, and of the necessity for organisation of our resources in men. The Hon. Dr. M'NAB briefly expressed his .support of tho Bill, and said that lie would reserve further remarks until a later stage in tho progress of the Bill.

HON, J. ALLEN IN R&PLY

. "EXCUSES" AND "REASONS." Tlio Hon. J. ALLEN, in reply, said tlmt lio feared tliat tho members in opposition to the Bill wero in opposition because tliey hail not yet come to a full realisation of the crisis facing tlio country. Ho wished that anything ho might (say would induce them to abandon some of their cherished beliefs aiul opinions. Probably they would yet abandon them. Ho behoved that tbo LnWrt membflrs had iu part influenced the opinion

of Labour.' Butif the Labour men who liad gono to tho front could bo ,r£ express their opinions, lib believed they would not share- the views of tho honourable members. It was said that tho Bill proposed to conscript life. But tor what purpose were they conscripting lne. They wero conscripting the living to save life, to savo the nation, to savo our flag, our freedom, and not only our -freedom, but the freedom of tlio weak nations of the world, to save all that was precious to us, to the Labour men themselves, for they could have no better field for tne carrying out of their ideals tnan .they had-'in free New Zealand. /-' ea j conscription of wealth had- been achieved already By the taxation imposed by larliament last year. These • excuses about conscription- of wealth, about inequality of sacrifice, about insufficient provision for dependants, and so on, were not tho real reason why certain men would not go to the war. The real reason was that they did not want to go. (Hear, hear,) Discouraging Recruitlnn-

It was said, that the. Government were discouraging, recruiting by not doing enough for, the men.. These men who made this charge were by their actions and . words themselves certainly not encouraging recruiting. Some members or the House were utilising the Soldiers Club to create dissatisfaction. 'V e , £ ! r ' hear.) There..were some members oi the House who said, that recruits were not (ranted, that the Government did . want volunteers, preferring. to constitute a military autocracy. The Government were truly serious ill their desire to get recruits. The appeals made to returned soldiers and on behalf of them wero political appeals. His advice to tlio returned soldier was to keep clear of tho politician. Answering those who.objected to. married men going until the wholo or Division I was cleared, he taid tnat the Government intended to clear out Division I before calling up any man to go compulsorily from Division 11. (Applause.) If the Government saw that men were volunteering too rapidly from Division 11, it might.be necessary to stop volunteering in any one district until .the shirkers in .that district, could be cleaned

up. . Some exception had been taken, to the quota scheme,, on tho ground of jiosaiblo injustice under it to those districts in which recruiting had been generous. The authorities, realised this danger fully, and their intention was to re-assess the quotas for the purpose of correcting this intquality. . Tho member for Christchurch North had suggested that thero ought to bo provision in the Bill for religious objectors. This had boon omitted. deliberately because tho. Government desired that every such objcctor should come before the boards. In-the drafting of the Bill there lmd . boon no more' pleasing feature than the expressions of the Maori members that they wished their people not to bo exempted, but to be treated like the pakeha. •

In commending tho Bill to the House, ho assured honourable members that even'y suggestion, put forward would be fully considered by the Government. He believed • that the Bill would bo supported by the overwhelming majority of the members'of the House and of tho people of the country.' (Applause.) The second reading, was agreed to by 49 votes to i 5. The opponents were'the five who voted for tho amendment previously—Messrs. M'Combs, Webb, Payne, Walker, Hindmarsh. Dr. Thacker and Mr. Fletcher gavo pairs against tho Bill. The House rose'at 1.10 a.m.

10 DEAL WITH EXEMPTIONS

THE APPEAL'BOARDS,

One of tho chief fears of supporters of the Military Service Bill is that the Appeal Boards to bp sot up to deal with claims for exemptions may not bo composed of . the rigiit class of men. M'a.Jy have ' expressed,, very definite- objection to any military men, being on the boards. The I'rimo Minister referred to this question in the House last night. He gave an assurance, that it was not intended that the boards should Iks military bodies; -The boards would be made up of level-headed,' intelligent men, unbiased men, who. would show no fear or favour. His own opinion was that a Magistrate should bo chairman, of tho board where possible. Ho had no fear of, any trouble about the administration of the boards. ....