PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2784, 31 May 1916, Page 6

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

MILITARY SERVICE BILL "ONE OBJECT-TO WIN THE WAR" SPEECH BY HON. J. ALLEN

The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday. ■' Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) Rave notice of the Troopship Scandal Bill, and the Anti-German Bill. Mr. W. H. FIELD (Otaki) gave notice to ask the Government to bring down legislation this session to provide that local bodies shall collect all dog taxes in their districts as in former years, as it has been found that the collection of dog tax by the Maori Councils has been a failure, with the result that many halfstarved dogs are running wild, worrying slieep and doing other damage. Four days' leavo of absence was granted to Mr. ,T. C. Thomson, and six days' leave to Mr, R. F. Bollard. The Proportional Representation and Effective Voting Bill (Mr. W. A. Veitch) was introduced and read a first time.

MILITARY SERVICE BILL second reading; SPEECH BY HON. JAMES ALLEN. The Hon. J. ALLEN (Minister of Defence) moved the second reading of the Military Service Bill. "This Bill," ho said, "has only one object, and that is to win tho war, and as soon as possible. I hope that honourable members will when considering every clause of the Bill remember these thieo words, 'Win tho war!' The Empire has entered into this struggle, and there can be no termination to the war satisfactory to us or our friends other than complete success. That New Zealand may be placed in a posttion to do its full share without any shadow of a doubt is the reason for this Bill. So far we have been able to gather all the Main Body and the Reinforcements under the voluntary system. And without making any boast about it, I think we are entitled to feel just pride in the splendid response to the appeal for volunteers. It is fitting that this opportunity should not he lost of placing on record the grateful thanks of this country to the men and the women wtooso patriotic loyalty has led them to give up so much to serve their King and Country at the front. I cannot- pass by without making due acknowledgement of the services rendered to this country by the Headquarters Staff and the training staff. (Hear, hear.) Eager as theso men have been to get to tho front, and sad as they have been to,see the transports going; away, tho staff has been held m New Zealand to do work equally valuable, if not more valuable than could have been rendered by them if'they had gono to the front.. Their patient, skilful, and devoted work can not be forgotten, and must b* recognised when the duo time arrives. Nor cau one pass by without some appreciation of tho work of our women. It is a pleasurable duty for mo to place on record the patient and untiring work of the women of this country. They may have satisfaction in the knowledge that they have played their part, and that the men «t the front have been stimulated and comforted by visible proof that the women of New Zealaud are working for them and thinking of them. Is it too much to say that the women of New Zealand, by what they have done here, liavo fought alongside the men &t the front, and contributed to the victory wo ore nil fighting for? I-can't refrain from saving also how much the services of ilie patriotic societies and of the local bodies havn been appreciated, especially of those local boclies who have assisted us in carrying on the recruiting scheme. And if . nil the local bodies had done the work asked of them we should now have had such complete rolls that compulsion could have been introduced in a fair and equitable way." Dr. Thacker: You 'were too mean to pay them. Mr. Rykes: Voluntary service! Mr. Speaker: Order. I must ask honourable members not to interjc-ct, particularly in an offensive manner.

Mr. .Allen: Sir, it i' not yet 100 late, for local bodies to set to work to get tt eir Tolls into shape in order that, if necessary, compulsion may be introduced fairly and without delay.

What the Voluntary System Has Achieved,

"I think it is my duty to place on record what has been the result of the voluntary system to date. Under the voluntary system there have been enlisted and sent from New Zealand—and in that number I include 240 men of the British section who come from the Mother Country—enrolled, equipped, and sent away over 46,000 men. (Hear, hear.) In addition to these -we have sent 351 nurses. (Hear, hear.) I should mention that in the number of men who havo, been sent away there wore :019 of our Maori fellow-citizens for service at the - front. I also wish to let the country know that 148 Niue'lslanders and -50 Harotongans have gone, and that more are in training, and more are ready to go when we want them. Over and above the 46,000 men sent away we have in training, or shall havo when the Seventeenth come in, 11,300 men, or a total sent from New Zealand and in training of 57,592 men. So, sir, we have closely approximated to 60,000 men for service. How great the development has been will be recognisid when I tell the House that the Main Body consisted of 7761 men. We guaranteed to keep up reinforcements on that body. In the course of time the Main Body was increased to 14,000 men, at whioh strength it stood when the Gallipoli campaign was abandoned. Then the New Zealand Division was formed, and in addition to the division, we have the establishment of the New Zealand Mounted Brigade and some detached units amounting to nearly 1800 men. The total of all these amounts to something over 21,000 men, and instead of having to keep up reinforcements oil 7761, with which we started out, this country is pledged to keep up reinforcements on nearly 22,000 men. Honourable members will realise that the task we have undertaken is a very much larger one than we anticipated when the war broke out, but no one doubts what the response will be from New Zealand to the call for these reinforcements, however heavy they may be. ~

A Total of 63,000 Men. "We have to-day upon our roll regis, tered, medical fit men, examined, ready to go into camp, over 5000 men. So that the total numbers of men that have gone away from New Zealand, that are in training, that are ready to go. into trainnig, are nearly 63,000." An lion, member: What do they want? They want cheap soldiers. Mr. Allen: This Bill allows the volun. tery ' principle to continue, and I hope those who have set their minds on tho voluntary svstom will recognise this. Mr. M'Combs; What ciint an<l humbug! Mr". Allen: I should be glad.to answer tho questions of honourable members '"jlr". Speaker asked honourable members to refrain from interrupting the MinisMr. Allen: I do feol that on my shoulders "now rests a responsibility greater than I have over felt before, and I shall be very grateful if honourable members will allow me to make my remarks without interruption. This Bill allows tho voluntary system to continue, but it backs it up with a scheme of national military service, thereby securing to us the number of reinforcements this country requires to send away every four weeks. The Two Systems. "I know there will be differences of opinion amongst members and amongst

the people of the country about the justice and the respective merits of these two systems. In my own judgment, and 1 am stating only my personal opinion, the most just, the most democratic, the most scientific, and the surest way of securing tho necessary men would nave been compulsory national service Tight from the start. (Hear, hear.) 1 g"o further, and say that organisation is so vital, especially in » nationaKcnsis such as wo are passing through, that it would have beon wiser at tho start to have provided not only for our military necessities, but for our industries and production on a well-organised basis. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, whatever may be one's personal opinion on a matter like this, it is a time when personal ideals and personal ambitious are to be sacrifioed, and when every individual man has to give something away in order to secure unity of purpose which will permit us to secure the end we all want. So, sir, I put aside my personal idea 9, and I hope honourable members will put aside their personal ideas on this subject in order to unite for the one common purpose. At the beginning the country was not ripe for any suck policy, and so the voluntary system was adopted and carried through up till to-day. And it must be admitted that so far as the .requirements of this country are concerned, the voluntary system has been eminently successful. It may bo-(who says it shall not be?) — successful up till the end of the war. That is no reason why this Bill should not be placed on the Statute Book, for this Bill may secure men under the voluntary system. But the success of the voluntary system in this country is due first of all to the loyalty of New Zealandcrs to King and Constitution, keen love of our own country, with its free and democratic institutions, affection for the Motherland and for the Dominions who have joined with us in this great struggle, faith in the righteousness of our' cause, and never-dying sympathy with the weaker nations as against the merciless cruel organised destroyer. But under the voluntary system we have drawn greatly upon our resource®—resources of a people numbering not kuch oyer a million of population. Inequities under any voluntary scheme show up more and more every day. It is our duty to see that there is no shortage in our drafts from now on till the war ends. This Bill provides that security."

No Exemptions. Mr. Allen went on to explain the Bill, clause by clause. No class was exempted, lie said, because that had been proved to be a mistake in Britain. Provision was, however, made for an appeal by employee or employer. The reserve was divided into two divisions on the lines specified. The second division could be divided into classes according to the number of children possessed by each married man. These classes had not been laid down, and he thought it would be wi6o to leave them so that they could learn from experience what would be the best method ot establishing. those classes. The enrolment of the reserve would be carried out by the Government Statistician, unhindered or -hampered' by. the military. Up to this point 'the responsibility of the' man was comparatively little, beyQnd his responsibility to tho National Eegister. At this point he desired to give a word of thanks to those local bodies who had worked, to make the National Eegister complete. (Hear, hear.) Every man of military age whose name was on the National Eegister was obliged to notify the Government Statistician of any change of address, the penalty for fuilure being a fine not exceeding . ,£2O. ■ . Another responsibility, rested npon men who did not register on the National Eegister. If they did not apply for enrolment within 11 days aftor the proclamation of their enrolment they became liable to severe penalties. The same applied to those men who became 20 years of age'subsequent to the proclamation of the enrolment. If men did not send in their names to the Government Statistician they stood, a chanco of a heavy fine and being called up for service without the option of the ballot. Further, if any person employed a man not on the roll he became liable to a fine of rot less than .£2O or more than Jiiuu. Similarly, if a man. changed his name he had to notify his change or elso suffer the penalties of the law. Calling Men Up. After enrolment, the next stage was the calling up of a certain number of men from Division I by warrant from tho Minister of Defenco. Thi6 warrant would specify the number of men who would be selected by lot, into the details of which process he would not go. The names of those men called up for service would bo gazetted, and on tho day following this Gazette notice the man would be deemed to bo transferred from the reserve to the Expeditionary Force, and would thereupon be under the Army Act and under Army rule. He would be required to report at a rendezvous, and failure to do so would be considered as desertion in some cases, in other cases as absence without - leave. .A deserter was feSe to severe punishment, and in addition to tho Army punishment, ;. a deserter would be liable to ten years' imprisonment with liard labour. Men medically unft could be sent back to the Keserve, discharged altogether, or Bent to do service in New Zealand.

The Appeal Boards. The right of appeal was provided for on the ground of public convenience or domestic circumstances. The'names of men exempted for medical unfitness would be gazetted, with the. reason for their exemption. Another provision enabled the (lovernment to stop voluntary enlistment throughout the Dominion or in any district. It might be said that by running the two systems side _ by side .they woul? be swapping horses in the middle of tho stream, lie had inquired as to the possibility of feeling between, the volunteer and the man who was compelled to come, but the opinion of the training staff was that there would be very little chance of this. Citing Precedents. There were, continued Mr. Allen, very few precedents for the adoption of compulsory military service during a period of war. One was in the time of Cromwell, before tho formation of the New Model Any, and tho other was in the American Civil War. In the latter case the voluntary system failed about the same time as with us—eighteen months after the outbreak of war. It was forced on tho people by cold reason and necessity, and against the sentiment of the people. Ho did not say that our .conditions were exactly analogous to theirs, but they might become so, and we had the opportunity now when Parliament met to put ourselves in a position to back up the voluntary system with compulsion when the need arose. There was a curious similarity between Lincoln's measure and the New Zealand Bill. All 111011 of military age were called on, and the country divided into districts. A quota was allotted to each district, as was done here, and it was proposed to continue this quote even if compulsion had to be brought in. A writor in "Blackwood's Magazine" had said recently that tho whole key to tho American system was the local quota. He agreed with that, and proposed to continue it here in New Zealand. In order that wo might profit by the experience of America! in ISG3, he desired to point out the results nf tlw introduc-,

tiou. of the compulsory scheme by thjS North in that war. An 'historian recorded that when Lincoln's Act was passed volunteering had almost ceased, and the true turning point of the war was when the first ballot wheel began to turn. The real result of that legislation was that the draft of men produced was 168,64#, l>ut the Act stimulated 1,076,558 volunteers to recruit. Might he hope that this legislation here would produce the same result? The War Was Won. Mr,- Allen, quoting from an article in "Blackwood's,' said that the writer said that this change was notable because it was made by an Anglo-Saxon people in love with liberty. In spite of all difficulties the change had been made and the war was won. The one object before us now was winning the war. The effect of the Compulsion Bill in America was not so much to create compulsion as to create volunteering, for 85 per cent, of the men raised were volunteers. He hoped the eifect .of tho measure here in New Zealand would be similar. Instead' of having to apply the measure here ho hoped we would receive all the men needed without having to put the Act into force. Another curious likeness between the Now Zealand Act and She American Act was that residence was the only test made of it here a man should be registered. A curious occurrence there was that unscrupulous doctors gave bogus certificates, but although he did not think New Zealand doctors would be guilty of this, provision had been made in the New Zealand Act against it. In the American Act an amendment had been made to provide for this. Drastic provisions were placed. in the New Zealand Act, but he had sufficient confidence in the New Zealand medical man to believe that not a single one of them would give a bogus certificate. Ho expected that most opposition would come from those who firmly believed that compulsion should not oome. To his mind it was the most democratic proposal, and secured equality of sacrifice. The rich man would have to go into tho ranks alongside tho poor man, and fight with him in tho trenches. Mr. Allon proceeded to quote- from John BucJian in "Land and AVater," that Lincoln knew that politics had to be related to life, and that -the war was life and death, so lie took the plunge, and introduced his Compulsion Bill. Single Men First. Tho question had been raised' whether they were right in calling on single men first. There were thinking ' men who believed this was unsound because they had to look to them for the future for the population of their country. He did not agTee with this. The married men had very grave responsibilities here, andthe Government would not far a moment argue that a man with several children should first go and leave his children. For that reason the Government first called upon the' single men, and he thought its action was sound. The Appeal Boards would be under the" Minister for Munitions. He knew of no reason why a military man should be on any Appeal Board. The idea was to make these Appeal Boards as strong an possible to resist the pressure that might be brought to bear u,pon tlieni, and allow them to have the confidencc of the country. Referring to the man who had not volunteered, he said he was quite satisfied that same men labelled as "shirk-, ers" had not volunteered, because they were unable to do so. A Bill like this had to see that no shirking took -place, and therefore provision was made for calling up special men who seemed to be shirking. Power- was given to suspend voluntary enlistment in any one district in order to see that the men who had not voluntarily enlisted in Division I should be called up. By this means they would exhaust Division I completely before callin" up Class I of Division 11. Under the voluntary system it was open to the married man to enlist, but he would like to say that he had never called upon any married man to enlist. "When they had. offered they had been accepted because they were keen to serve. Under the new Bill they would still he able toenlist, but they would not be called upon to do so. There would indeed be a check' npon their doing so in the provision to which he had referred to that all the single men went first. Another clause enabled them to call upon medical men ..to do national service. This would not ho objected to. So far as the conscrinfc wa* concerned, no distinction would bo made be'tween the volunteer and the conscript. They would not be formed into separate units. As they came in thev would all be treated alike.

. Enough Single Men for a Year. How far is this Bill likely to neet our demands? said the Minister. TTio Government Statistician estimated, ho said, that the approximate number of men in Division I available in the Dominion was SO,OOO, without, making the deductions that ought to be made. After making all allowances for unfit men and appeals, it was reckoned that there were 32.000 men available, or .sufficient to jrovide for the present Reinforcements for twelve months. Our "Scrap of Paper." Tn conclusion, lio would summarise th# reasons why the Bill was necessary. It was neces?arv, first of all. to keep their promise to the Motherland. "Tt is thebit of paper which, when confirmed by tlie members of this House, and put on the .Statute Book, fives security Hint the pledge we have given shall be fulfilled. We need this Bill in order that we T a y keep our word to thosi of our men who liavo already prone out of New Zealand and are serving at the front. This is the message we are transmitting to the l.Tave volunteer? who have answered tho call, and who have fought and arc fighting at the front. The message', whenit reaches them, will. I venture to inspire them to further brave deeds, j'hey will realise that tho people and Parliament of this country have decided to tfo up an adequate supply of comradcs to fill the unfortunate blanks that must of sad, necessit.v arise. The Bill is necessary in order that wo may keep our own selfresoeo't as part of the great Umpire to which we belon". whose very existence is threatened by this terrible war. It is a privilege to heln the Old Land. Tt is these privileges that have helped to make us what w> are. We inherit much from the past. We are confident that our jSew Zealand men serving at the l'ont m*» now semiring for us some, tiling in these days '.f trial which will make ou,r country and people nobler and better in the days to wrnie. The sacrifice will be like a purifying fire, destroying all that is unworthy in n= und enabling ns to profit by the lessons of the ' day. ■

"Sir. wo all hone for peace, and for an early peace, for the day when hate shall' pass away. But that is not vet. I mov« the second reading of this Bill."

"Vitally Necessary." Mr. T. M. WIT/FORD fKut« said that he believed in the principle of the Bill, although in Committee he would endeavour to secure some amendments in. regard to nuiot'a, etc. The unfairness of the voluntary system had been proved by nast experience, and shown the necessity for the present measure. He felt that ho could not do anv good by speaking at length unon the Bill at the present stage, lmt he hoped that he would be able in Committee to assist 'n imnroving. some of its clauses. He hoped that the Bill would soon pass with some necessary' amendment*. The measure, he considered. was vitally necessary, and should have been passed' months'ago. Mr. Witty Finds Fault. Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) said that there was no provision in the Bill for meeting the case of the man possessed of property or other responsibilities. There was no "encouragement to enlist. T)r. Pomare: They can appeal. Mr. Wittv said the Bill provided that all males, British born, who were of military ago should be placed in the reserve. What about aliens who had been naturalised in New Zealand? Were they to bo allowed to reap the benefit of tho sacrifice of the men who went to the front? Then again, were the doctors who were to be employed to examine the men to be all British Wn or were any aliens t~ be rainWeJ? The Bill did not provide, in his opinion, for on equality of. secrifico. There was a danger of one class of tho cnmmunitv profiting at the expense of another section.' In regard to the Appeal Boards he was glad to have the Minister's assurance that these would net ho military hoards. Regarding anpeals he did not think that the father of man who appealed against being called up should have the right of appearance before the board as well as tie son. Every

taan. on being enrolled, should be notified of the fact by roistered letter. He felt sure that the Bill would pass, but he wish&d to assist in making it as complete as possible. ' Tho Change in Opinion. Mr. C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) supported tho Bill. The voluntary system, he said, iiad achieved great results jio to the present, but a great change had come over the opinions of the community ;in the direction of desire for such a measure aa the present. Ho believed that the ■men iiow at the front aud in training .were in favour of compulsory service. Regarding tho inclusion in the first division of men married since the outbreak of war, he susgested that only married men who had been married since the end of last year (1915) should be included. Many of those who had been married in the early stages of the war had done so in fulfilment of contracts entered into before the outbreak of war! Thero would bo still a large number of men who could be included in tho first division. It might bo necessary to amend some portions of the Bill. Several members were pledged to endeavour to secure a reduction in the cost of living and to secure better conditions for. the dcpsEd&Tits of soldiers, and the Government would have-been well ad™sed if it had, provided for these matters ! before introducing tho present Bill. Nothing New in Conscription. P/- A- K- NEWMAN (Wellington East) taid that at the. beginning of the war jieople did not agree that conscription was necessary, but ■as the wax progressed everybody caine to see the need for it. it was impossible to get all the peopio i ia undei\ the voluntary system, and every nation in the war had adopted compulsion. There was nothing new about compulsion in our country. It was in the Alilitia Aot and the Defence Act. Mr. Fletcher: For homo defence. • .Dr. Newman,: For home defence. Just 30. But it is not put rightly in the Act. Whether the defence of the country is 'in New Zealand or outside of Now Zeasame. Whether it is in Wellington orPetoDe or France, it is a .iife-and-death struggle for us. He went on to.'Speak of the desirability of the Government taking steps to conscript In Borne measure the New Zealand/ U. hey could not be sent to the front, but they should bo required to' do some other work. It would be very wrong if these people were to be allowed, to get all the" advantages of the war, higher wages and w&r bonuses, and so on, while our men went to the front. He expressed lite doubts about tho wisdom of giving mili.lary tribunals carto blanohe. It. would ,nt>t be wise for. the House to give away such wido powers to a board they could know nothing about. ; He would ask tho ; Minister to introduce clauses' to define aud limit tho powers of boards. He urged the Minister to refuse to accept the services ot married men with two. or three or four children while'there were enough single men in the country., to supply our needs for at least a year. There was need ' New Zealand for a Te-exairiination of those men rejected as medically -unfit, because early in the war the'examination was altogether too stringent, and the (standard set too high. He strongly snpVOrted the Bill. - . ' What Dr. Thacker Thinks. Dr. H. T. J. THACKER (Chri6tchliroh) said that the lost clause of the Bill was, in his opinion, the most important as it was the most drastio In tho Bill. This t'lause allowed: the Governor to put 'compulsion into effect the day after tho Bill became law. ' . Mr. Isitt: It doenn't say that' ho will do it. ; Dr. Thacker: No, but he may do it. Mr. Allen, he said, had, when he was at Home, pledged the country to a certain Expeditionary Force, without .authority, of any sort. He had amplified that pledge by giving, more and moro men, and this was i not a fair thing to this country. ■ Ho was afraid, that some men now in reserve would be forced into the' ranks by "the promise by the Minister of still- more ■brigades.. This conscription of blood,was , • made 'necessary by the consistent "overpledging" of this country. In any case compulsion had no right to be tried until- everything else hod. been tried and l failed, and-he contended that everything else had not been tried. One of his ideas was that local camps should have been tried to give the young men elsewiher« the. . military inspiration" given to the""young men of Wellington; He declared that the Minister of Defence was a compulsionist from tho beginning. He did not admit that compulsion was yet necessary in New Zealand. The whole aim' of the Government was to hasten compulsion, and to place tho whole country under a Inilitary autocracy.

The Member for Grey. Mr. P. C. WEBB (Grey) said that the Minister, introducing the Bill, had' given very few reasons why such a measure tjhould be introduced in New Zealand'. iJle maintained that a young country lite ours, winch supplied Greai Britain with more foodstuffs than any other country of equal population, was virtually a munition factory. Ii; had also found more men man any other part of the Empire in -proportion to population.. Mr. Isitt: no.. Mr. Webb: Does the honourable member say this country Dins lagged behind Australia and Canada? 1

•BrHain Sitt: ** iS a loDff way Great

Mr. Webb: I am not talking about Great Britain, but the overseas Dominions. Otreat Britain has a perfect mlit to send morn men than Australia and ?? z ® al! } n <' and other young countries. Mr. Craigie: This is our fight as much as Britain s flgto.t. . •■Mr. Webb said there was doubt in England _as to whether the introduction of the Compulsory Service Bill there was a military or a political necessity. To bring in conscription her.o was, he said an insult to this country that had dono 5? ? e ii :° date. He was convinced that tho object of the Bill was to get cheap soldiers. '(Voices: "Nonsense.-") No man with a family could go and fiihfc for Jus country at ss. a day. He contended that the firat stop of tho Government ou&ht to bo conscription of wealth by taxation. There was no military necessity for this Bill, and it was being forced .upon tho people without their consent. , A Lead to the Dominions. Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said they should not take much notice of the Jast speaker, who opposed everything. The people of the country would back up tho Government m introducing this measure, which was a lead to tlis other Dominions. The Bill was tho socialisation of their means of defence, and as such could not be opposed by any who called himself a democrat. Under the voluntary system thousands of immature boys had gone, rwhereas, 'under a properly organised system tho most fitted men would have been B ent. (Hear, hear.) The Bill would cause a boom in voluntary recruiting, and apart from that would ensure their recruits to the end of the war. In view of the importance of skilled men to certain industries, he thought the Government should in the meantime. reject skilled married men who offered their sen-ices. He urged the Government to increaso the members of the Appeal Board to five, and that civil representatives should be added when particular industries were affected, such us the Taranaki dairy industry. Mr. Payne: There is the cloven hoof of Taranaki.

Mr. Wilkinson expressed his hope that the provision classing men married subsequent to the war as single would be altered, and at least six months' grace given them. Further, men with two dependants should not be classed as first line dingle men. The Government should also give particular attention to poor men •who were in financial difficulties, and lighten their burden if they were forced to enlist. He thought that the notice given to men should be more than a Gazette notice. In cases where three brothers out of four or five had gone, those remaining should be placed in the Second Division. He would like to 6ee an addition ma'de to the Act providing that men who wilfully broke the law ebould be disfranchised for five or ten years. Mr. T. K. SIDEY (Dunedin South) said the nature of the struggle was sufficient justification for the organisation and conscription of the whole strength of the State. He supported the' Bill. One of the principal objections of the people to the voluntary system -was its absolute unfairness. The Exemptions Problem. Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) ridiculed ITio possibility that the Appeal Boards would be in any way open to influence. He thought that either a Supreme Court Judge or a Stipendiary Magistrate should be tho chairman, jvhilo

the other men could bo commercial men or men acquainted with labour conditions. If it were found expedient that the farming industry needed special treatment tho board might bo enlarged, but certainly that industry should bo represented on the board. The 5000 men registered as lit lor future Reinforcements were scattered over six drafts.. Ho was glad there were no exemptions, but certain industries had to bo kept going. If the appeal boards were set up in a coin-mon.-sense way there would be no trouble Co keep essential industries going with which to pay lor tho war. Ho supported tho BiH because it was fair and equit able. He thought men married subsequent to the war should not be taken ■if childi-en had been born. Something should be done to protect men who might suffer financially by being forced to go to the war, He did cot favtiur oxemption for them, . but something might be done through the Public Trustee for-'them. He mentioned that insurance policies issued since the war bore a condition fnat they were issued subject to tho company receiving notice of the man's, departure to the war, and receiving the company's permission, failing which the ' policy became void. Undei this Bill men would neither be able to give that notice nor receive the permission, and the Government should look into the matter. Mr. Speaker and Mr. Payne. ..Mr. JOHN PAYNE (Grey Lynn) spoke of "Tifeiitham aud its horrors," expressing a hope that the Defence Minister might be haunted nightly by the corpses of the men who died there. Then ■ho declared that men had been bled by tho Minister of Defence. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member must not use sucli- terms as those towards another honourable member. He must try to address this House, if he can, in an orderly and proper manner. Mr; Payne began to talk about pensions, and Mr. Speaker again checked him, telling him that thi3 subject was not dealt with in the Bill. Mr. Payne replied:'l find the rules of debate in this House are exceedingly wido until the member for Grey Lynn gets up.. Mr. Speaker: Will the honourable member resume his seat. He has the same latitude as other members. Tlio member for Grey Lynn does not behave as other members do. Mr. Payne: No, Sir, because I happen to be an honest politician. I Bay I am in a house of sham, hypocrisy, and humbug, and for that reason I differ from other members. When we can clean our house up- — ' Mr. Speaberj The. honourable membei must continue with his speech on the Bill beforo tho House. Otherwise I filial! be reluctantly compelled to ask him to Te. sume his seat. Mr. Payne acceptcd the advice, and went on to declare uncompromising hostility to the Bill. Ho said, however, that if compulsion was the only -way open by wliibb mon could- be got he would support it. On Behalf of the Maoris. The Hon. Dr. POMARE said the one need admitted by everybody was to win tho war, and tho time had come when we should do all we can. "As a Maori," he oontinued, "may I say that we have done our little bit—(hear, hear)—and are willing to do a little bit more.-" (Hear, hear.) Mr. Payne: Did you volunteer? Dr. Pomare: Yes, I volunteered before the honourable gentleman did, and I will volunteer now. Will the honourable tentleman do so? My name ,was the first own among the Maoris who wanted to go to tho front. I have done my little 'bit by sending over 1000 Maoris to the front—l wonder how many white men the honourable gentleman has sent. _ He went on to speak of the relative merits of voluntaryism and conscription among his own people. Why should some tribes, he ■asked, give of their best, while others refused to send any? It should apply to both alike, and for this reason he beHeved in conscription. The call of tho New Zealand division, flakcha and Maori, wa9'for more men, and for conscription. With such a cry coming to us, could we go on to quibble with words? If this conscription meant the end of his political career, 'then let it ond; what could it matter by comparison with the needs of the day? Ue would ■ support conscription for his peopio,. tofight for Britain, because he knew that his people were, safe under the shadow' of the British flag. Ho read a telegram from a meeting of the Arawas to the Prime Minister, congratulating him i-pon the introduction of the Compulsion Bill. Tho Arawas had been loyal to a nan ever since there had been British rule here.- If for this wot the last man of the Arawas was needed, they would go -to the last man. (Applause.)

A Justifiable Expedient. Mr. C. J. TALBOT (Tomuka) said I hat right throughout the wholo war he, had stood out for the voluntary system, though he believed a majority ■ of the people of liis district wero in favour of compulsion. Tho voluntary system was the ideal system—if one had always ideal people to deal with. Compulsion should be used only as a last resort. Ho supported this Bill as an expedient—a necessary precaution, to ensure that if voluntaryism failed wo should be ablq to get men to back up our noble follows already at the front. Mr. A. HABEIS (Waitemata) supported the Bill, and said it should have been ■ introduced long ago. Many of those who should have gone to the war had not gone, while some who had gone should lavo remained a*t home. He did not think we should send youths of 18 or 19 years who were not physically matured to the front. Neither should we send married men with from five to six children. Many such men had gone, and all honour to them, ■but these wore not tho men who should go forth to fight. The Bill was likely to have a good uffoct in stimulating volunteering. The Cry about "Prussianism." Mr. C. E. STATHAM (Duuedin Central) said that ho did not believe that the passing of the Bill would have ; all the dreadful cffects of which its opponents had expressed horror. Such a thing as Prussian militarism was impossible in New > Zealand under our democratic form of government. He insisted that compulsory service was thoroughly democratic. It was absolutely wrong to say that British arms had achieved all their successes under voluntaryism. Until 50 or 60 years ago the press-gang for the Navy was a well-known institution in regular use. On land, soldiers were compelled to go to fight as late as 1871. It was idle to describe the system in vogue in New Zealand for many months pas,t as a voluntary system. . In actual fact it 1 had been a system of moral compulsion, and there was' far more tyranny in a system of moral compulsion than there could be in a system of physical 'compulsion. He was not in favour yet of conscripting tho Maori race. He would need to give the matter some further ' consideration. We had sent the flower of that race away, and it was doubtful whether we should send eny more of them, seeing that the race was diminishing already. Ho held strongly the opinion that married men should not go before single men. He deplored the introduction into the great question of national defence of so much of the mercenary spirit. He supported the Bill. The debate was adjourned on the motion . of Mr. M'Combs. The House rose at 11.16 p.m.