WAR PENSIONS BILL

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2519, 21 July 1915, Page 9

WAR PENSIONS BILL

/ IMPROVED SCHEDULES iTHE' AMENDMENTS INTRODUCED,

, The RIGHT HON. .W. F. MASSEY .(Chairman of the Secret Defence Committee)" presented- the" report of- : 'the committee on the schedules of the War Pensions Bill. • : ' ' ■The'amendments were- introduced, by Governors : Message. ' . . SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awaru a) made reference to a statement that appeared in the Christchurch "Press" to the effect that the amendments in the Bill had been submitted-to a meeting of the Prime Minister's Party; and had been agreed to. The matter had been discussed in committee, apart from, party point of view, and he: thought if his party had been made conversant with the particulars, his side shbuid have the same privilece. ' ' The RIGHT HON. W.F.MASSEY (Prime Minister). said " that he was pleased to, hear, the statement made by the Leader of_ the Opposition that the ■ Bill was considered .apart from party views. There had lieen no meeting of the Government Party since the Bill was referred back to the committee, so the particulars could, not have been disclosed to them.' It would have been . a .breach of faith which neither he nor his party would , have been guilty of. Tho paragraph may havo been caused by tlio-fact that;at a prior date, when a Government caucus was held, several members notified to him their attitude on the Bill.

Mr. J. A. HANAN (Invercargill) Wanted it cleared up as to whether every member of the House was bound by the decisions of the Secret Defence Committee. He expressed his'complete dissatisfaction, thn-t the amendments did liot fjo the' length of £2 for total disablement. If the members of the House were free to act,.they would go to the lengthy of making the pensions £2, and not 355., as was now proposed. The appearance of the men who 'had returned was an irresistible appeal v. to the feelings of the country to" pay £2 for total disablement. He could not see why. the .question -of -war pensions should be mado a secret'matter.'". ' The Hon. ■A. T. NGATA (Eastern Maori) referred to the position of the wives and dependents .of,the Maori members. The position of the wives of some of the men was peculiar.oii "account of the Maori marriage customs. Amongst the Maoris who .had gone were husbands of Maori women, married under the Maori custom,, who were fathers of children.. . AVhen the claim was- made for the pension would not be ablo to prove their marriage unless special provision was made.

Mr. •L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) took oxception to the fact that no amendment had been made to the provision whereby the board could reduce the_ amount of pension paid to a totally disabled man who was able to make some little extra amount. Further, no'distinction was made with regard to the amount of personal individual sacrifice. Some men made a greater sacrifice than others.

Mr. H. POLAND (Ohinomuri) said that Wrong standards were being set up for the payment of pensions to soldiers. Wo should not say "Our pensions aro better than those in Canada and Australia." but we should set out, to givo these men who risked so much for their country as much as .we possibly could. , Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Hutt) said' .that the success or failure of the Bill would depend on whether or not the board was '.'sympathetic."

Mr. W. A. VEITCH (TVanganui) said tliat he would liko to see thei power taken, from the board to _ reduce tho amount payable under certain circumstances. Injuries should be scheduled, and the amounts receivable on account of those injuries defined. Increase Means £250,600 a Year. The Hon. J. ALLEN (Minister of Defence) said that those sailors employed on H. 11.5. Philomel by tlio Now Zealand Government would come under the provisions .of. the Bill. As for. Imperial Reservists, that was a matter for reciprocal arrangement. They would have pensions provided either in Now Zealand or England'. The Department paid all medical expenses til] a man was discharged, and be was not discharged till tuftdicallv Bt. Bjy tlia end of June..

1916, New Zealand would have 60,000 men away, aiTd ho thought the war would very likely last much longer than that. Mo calculated that the incrcaso mado in the Bill in Committeo would mean anything from £200,000 _to £250,000 a yeitr. Even at a tinie like the present it was neccssary to look ahead and consider tlio responsibilities to he faced. Year by year money would have to be borrowed for tho development of the country, bringing into existence now industries, etc. Dr. Thacker: Where would we he if tlie Germans beat lis?

| Mr. Allen: The Germans are not going to boat us. (Hon. members: Hear, hear!) There was a. prospect of having to provide for a million a year in pensions. The country would be willing to pay it, but those who asked for more must realise that they had their responsibilities, The Canadian Rato. The Canadian rate for total disablement to a married man was £79, and for the unmarried man £52. In England the Tate for the disabled man, as now proposed, whether married or unmarried,'was .£65. The proposals of tho New Zealand Bill gave an unconditional pension to tho man who was totally disabled, whether ho was poor or rich. There was nothing m the Bill,that gave the_ board power to makeup' a .partially disabled man's wages to only 355. per week. He did not think the schedule of the Workers' Compensation Act should be inoluded in the Bill, as some honourable members had urged. It was much wiser to leave the definition of disablement to a 'sympatheticboard, rather than to state specifically that a man could not be ranked as totally ; disabled unless- lie had suffered certain specified injuries. There might be causes arising out of the w-ar that would totally disable a man 'without his injuries coming -within tlio definition of anjr schedule. He did not object to the criticism which had been -perfectly fair. Ho realised that every member was anxious that all possible, should be done for the mon who were doing so much for us, but ho would ask honourable members to take some thought of their responsibilities, and not to alloy their feelings to obscure their judgment. He hoped the House would put tho Bill through. Amendment Out of order. ' Mr. J. T. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) moved as an amendment that the Bill should be referred back to the Secret Defence Committee, on the ground that the provision for wounded 6oldiers was inadequate and insufficient under tho circumstances. Tho EIGHT HON W. F. MASSEY rose to a point of order. They wore dealing witli amendments introduced by Governor's Message, and he wanted to know ■ whether it, was competent for thorn not to receive this Message. Was it competent for any member to move a motion or amendment referring a Governor's Message back? He could not recollect such a thing over having been done during his experience of Parliament.

Mr. SPEAKER said that he had not had time to look up the Standing Orders on the point, but he, like tho Prime Minister, could not remember such an amendment having been moved at this stage. Later opportunities would occur for members to move that the Bill- bo referred back to the committee. Ho disallowed the amendment.

Mr. R. FLETCHER (Wellington Central) held that £1 15s. per week was not sufficient. In his opinion £2 10s. would liot be too much to give. What would it mean if they gave 35s. — a man would come back and be in a worse position than the shirker who had stayed here all the time. It would be a disgrace if they did riot make proper provision. We had nothing to do with what Australia, Canada,, or England gave: we shoiiM]-^^in,.^e J )yan ) |.:and be, proud of it. A Word of Caution. Mr. R. A. WRIGHT (Wellington Suburbs) said that had the Bill brought down gone the greater lengths he'would have been glad, but he remembered that the Bill came from a committee composed of prominent members from every party in the House. They felt they could not give more than 355., and some weight should he given to their opinions. The whole thing was an unknown quantity, and when the leaders in the various countries were inclined to be cautious, then ho felt inclined to he cautious also. They did not know how long the war was going to last, or what the Bill would lead them into. There was no reason why the Pension Bill should-not be 'amended later when tho final cost was known.

. Mr. .A. M. MYERS (Auckland East) said that while he along with other members would like to see tho pensions increased, lie realised, having gone into tho financial Aspect of the problem, that we ought to exercise some i degree of caution. He thought the pensions now proposed were as large as they could prudently be made. Mr. P. C. WEBB (Grey) expressed a wish, that tho Bill should be referred back' to the ■ Defence Committee with emphatic instructions that the pension for total disablement be increased at least to £2 per week. The Rainy Day. The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN (Attor-ney-General) said that all members had expressed.most generous sentiments and-had -spoken actuated by the best motives. But they 'must aim at giving justice. At the end of a period of war there was a decline in trade. During the Peninsular and the Crimean Wars Britain prospered, but_ after both wars long- periods of depression followed. l No one could say what would be' the state of affairs after this war. And while it was the duty of the Government to see that the men who had fought were properly provided for, it was also our duty to seo that tho finances of the country were so conserved that other people wore not thrown, out of employment after the war. He wondered what those honourable gentlemen who had urged the Government to give as much as £2-or £2 oe. por week would say if after this wero done the finances of the country camo to a state of collapse. Who would t'hen blame the Government ? ■ Who would be loudest in their complaint? He ventured to think that some of the honourable gentlemen who now professed such unbounded generosity would then say that the Government'should have been moro prudent, should have exercised more sagacity in the administration ,of tho affairs of the country. It was true New Zealand was iu an extremely fortunate position, because our staplo products would always bo in some domaud. But we must be certain that when tho war was over the general business of the country could be carried on.

DR. THACKER (Christchurch East) urged that tlie clauso providing for an allowanco to an attendant ought to he reinserted in tho Bill.

Mr. A. WALKER (Dunedin North) said his opinion was that the amount of the pension should he sufficient to provide a living wage, and he did not think the present schedule provided this. •

Mr. T. A. H. FIELD (Nelson) thought the increases of the second schedule were a great advance, and _ he was thankful for tliem. It meant increases not only to the totally disabled, but to the partially disabled. He was disappointed, however, that the Secret Committee had not seen its way to givo the £2, but tlicy must admit .that tlio Secret Committee comprised the ablest men of both sides of tlio House. Tax the Brewers. Mr. J. VIGOR BROWN (Napier) strenuously supported adequate provision for tho men wha' returned. "AVe have heard it said," lie stated, "that there are wealthy brewers in New Zealand. Well, tax those brewers right up to their necks. Tho Government will know what the brewer people aro nukLine, bo let them easjj it on, But' there

are other wealthy people in Now Zealand, wealthy-lawyers and wealthy landowners. Let them pay a heavy graduated income tax. What does it matter to a man getting £2000, £5000, ' or £10,000 a year what ho pays, so long as he gets throb meals a day?" Ho thought tho .Bill should go further than it did, especially with regard to tho men who were totally disabled. .He hoped that nover again would occur a case ho instanced, where four men, who returneel last week, wero fined 6d. each for getting into a first-class carriage on the way to Napier—and or.o of those men could scarcoly hobble. The Bill did not •have for its object just the giving of something to live on; they wanted to make these men as comfortable as possible when they came back from protecting this country. Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said that it had long been held by somo that beer, was not sufficiently taxed, and they had heard an invitation from one of their class to tax beer.

Mr. Brown: I said tax the brewers. Mr. Wilkinson: Well, tax the brewers and the beer too.

Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) hoped that the legislation would go through -without , a division. It was only right' that their warmest sympathies should go >out to those men defending the loountry. He regretted that tho provision, for an attendant had been cut out of the schedule. Must Face Faots. Mr. C. J. PARE. (Eden) thought that the schedulo was reasonable, just, and sane, and he thought the thanks of the country, would be given to the Secret Defence Committee. Parliament was signing a blank cheque oil the resources of tho country, for it was not known wliat the liability would be. No one could estimate yet to what responsibility this Bill was committing the country. The finances of the country would have' to be considered whether honourable gentlemen wished it or not, and lie believed that, the proposals in the Bill.went as far as was prudent. After the war, Wlion the cost could be determined, Parliament could review the pensions scheme and make tho rates more gonerous. And he was a bold man who would say when the war would be finished. To his mind the news of the day was tho most unsatisfactory we had had for some time, and wo must face facts. • He' would vote for the proposals as submitted. Mr. A. H. HINDMARSH (Wellington South) said that it seemed to him the speeches of some of tho Liberals had placed their leader in' a most unenviable position. They did not know what, their leader had done to effect a compromise. If this conduct was their idea of loyalty then he was at a loss to know what their conception of party loyalty was. And some of those who had done this wculd be the first to cadgo round for a job if the Liberal Party should happen to get a majority. If the work of the committee was to be bandied to and fro in this way the result, would be that the pensions would be the subject of party warfare, to the great detriment of the men. About his own attitude there could be no doubt, becaus? the party he represented stood for high pensions. But overy sensible man knew that 'when men of different opinions were associated on a committee there must bo compromise.' If a man was itot prepared to entertain compromises lie should not go on a.committee. . SIR JOSEPH WARD REPLIES. . AN INDIGNANT PROTEST. SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said he wished to repudiate, the claim of any honourable member of the House, whether he belonged ty the Labour Party or the Liberal Party or any other party, that he alone had a desire to do his duty by the men who have, been killed or wounded.He was as much iii 'earnest as anyone could be in his wish to help the wounded soldiers. But he also was seized of his responsibilities. ■ What was the object of tlio. Defence ;Coramittee? . The Empire 'was passing through an unparalleled crisis, in which New Zealand was involved, and problems were arising which could not be discussed on the floor of tho House of Representatives. The committee was set' up to examine such questions, microscopically, if. necessary, and the committee was supposed to comprise men who. had the confidence of both parties. If they had not this confidence in tlieir representatives they could say so and remove them from the committee. If that occurred the members now on the committee would not bicker about it, but would give those other honourable members credit for a sincere, desire to do all t'hat was possible for the men who had fought for their King and country. Theso honourable gentlemen had been putting it on record that they wero the friends, and the mombers of tlio committee the enemies, of the'men wholn the members tif the committee wera as anxious to serve as they were. Honourable members had said:r"lf it is going'to cost two millions a year —no matter what it costs —put it on to beer; put it on i to anything." .But bow long would the country, sustain finance methods of this

kind ? There were other liabilities also, huge liabilities arising out of, the war, which this country would _ have to sustain. In actual fact a million a, year was a very large sum to be raised, because all the money would have to be raised by taxation. Other schemes for raising money were absolutely impossible. As for taxation, he was one of those who believed that wealth should bear its shftro of taxation, but did anybody suppose that only people with wealth would bear the burden of this war? Did any honourable mcm- | ber know what tho position of this country would be at the end of the.war? He was not a pessimist. He had never been accounted one. But he had a sufficient sense of his responsibilities, and a sufficient knowledge of business to knowthat our trade would suffor very heavily indeed. The purchasing power of all nations. would bo reduced, there would he no free exchange of investments, and' t'liese things were going, to have a vei'y vital effect oil our finances here. Ho did not agree that it was absurd to make comparisons between our* scheme and tho schemes adopted, in other countries. These other countries would have to borrow money wherewith to carry on this war in the same market as New Zealand would have to borrow. He agreed with tho speech made that night by tho At-torney-General, who had issued a noto of warning. The resources of the country were wonderful, but they had never been tested as they would be by this war. It was very well to say that people with wealth should pay for it all. For his own part lie was prepared topay his, share, wnatever it might be. Ho was prepared to pay everything he possessed for his country, and he was not prepared to liave it said that ho was less anxious to serve tho men who had fought for us than any other member of the Houso.That was a very unfair and improper suggestion, and it had been made by implication. r Mr. Isitt interjected K/iibbish!" Sir Joseph Ward retorted hotly that ho would not submit to an honourable) member saying "Rubbish" to him. Ho repeated that tho accusations made against tho Defence Committee wcro very unfair and improper. Sir' Joseph Ward took his seat amid applause, chiefly from the Government benches, and his colleague, Mr. Myers, hastened to congratulate him on his spceoh—a speech which created a greater sonsation than any speech delivered in Parliament for some years. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) protested that the members of tho House who pleaded for more generosity for wounded soldiers did not deserve the severe castigation administered to them by the Loader of tho Opposition. Danger of Overloading. Tha Right Hon. W. F. MASSEY (Prima Minister) said he wishe'ff to bear testimony to tho fact ilwt th» wemkrt a£ ike approach-.

Ed the question without any party reservations, anxious only to So their best for the men.- This applied to every member of the committee. The increase made of 40 per cent, was a serious one, for it was quite impossible to say wheal tho war would end, and how much it was going "to cost. Also he knew we must expect depression after the war — depression worse, perhaps, than ever had come upon tliis country. Then there was this danger: If the pensions scheme provided for more than the country could pay the depression would be intensified. Then there would be a demand to tho pensions reduced. Far better now to provide for a reasonable amount, and he believed what was proposed was a reasonable- amount, even a generous amount. The-members who wore suggesting that the Bill should go back to the committee were doing a very unwise thing. So suro as tho pensions scheme was overloaded so surely wo<uld it break down. For Ten Votes or Five? " Mr. J. T. M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) began to speak. Mi". Hindmarsh interjected: "We all know you. You would sell your country for ten votes.' Mr. Homsby asked that the remark be withdrawn. MR. SPEAKER asked Mr. ' Hindmarsh what he had said. Mr. Hindmarsh: 'I said he would sell bis country for ten votes. I should have said. five. "Later, ho,'withdrewhis statements*

Mr. Hornsby protested against the attack made by ths Leader of the Opposition on those who had stood up for the soldiers. Tho Leader of'the Opposition had accused him of doing samething improper. He could not understand how this statement, could bamade by any sane person. He would leave it at that.

Mr. P. 0. WEBB (Grey) congratulated the Government on having found such an able supporter of their proposals as the Leader of the Opposition.

The Bill was recommitted at 1.30 a.m., and tho amendments were inserted. The Bill was reported, and the House rose at 2 a.m. '.