THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2280, 14 October 1914, Page 7

THE HOUSE

RAILWAY IMPROVEMENT MR. HILEY'S RECOMMENDATION THE LOAN BILL. The House of Representatives sat at 2.30 p.m. _.;, The Railways Improvement Bill was introduced by Governor's Message. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that'the-Hill, which proposed to commit the country to a great expenditurei m carrying out the scheme outlined by Air. E. H. Hilcy, Manager of Railways, in his report, was a most uupor-

tnnt one, and lie hoped the Government would take tho earliest opportunity of explaining exactly what they intended to do. It seemed to him, on a perusal of the schedules, that Auckland was'getting the lion's share of tho spoil. It was an Aiiekland scheme from beginning to end. Ho was surprised at the party which had in the past hurled sneers at its opponents for having mndo

certain proposals in election year coming forward on the eve of an election with this extravagant scheme. Ho noticed nothing in the Bill, however, to provido for a deviation to avoid the

RiiiHitaka incline, and very little for Christchurch.

An lion, member: What about the Lyttolton tunnel?

Mr. Russell admitted that this was one small tit-bit for Christchurch, but still it would leave £360,000 to buy up the votes of the Auckland people. His chief objection to the scheme, however, was that it was beyond the financial capacity of the peoplo of Now Zealand. Much of the expenditure proposed would be on railway stations-, which would not materially jiihance the earning power of the railways. If the money .were to bo spent in easing gradients and curves, and work of that sort, he would not offer jjich serious objections to it. But such a prodigious borrowing enterprise would have startled even Sir Julius Vogel. His own opinion was that the equipment of the railways should bo kept on a standard of the simplicity which was the lowest consistent with efficiency and safety, and that the money available should be spent' on new lines which , would give to settlors who had now no access to their landa the advantages of railway communication. It was in short a wild-cat scheme. Ho did not believe that railway stations for Auckland, Wellington, and Christehurch to cost such huge sums were needed in this country. He was amazed that a Government which had got into, power as a self-dependent Government, which would reduce borrowing, should now come down with a proposal to borrow £3 per head of tho entire peculation for expenditure on the railways. Extend the New Lines. The Hon. R. M'KENZIE (Motueka) said that the Government's proposals were mere reckless plunging. Ho was absolutely satisfied that the needs of the country could be met by an expenditure of about half a million, and while there were people in the backblocks wading up to their hips in mud, it was the worst possible policy to attempt to run the railways as a luxury for the big centres of population. Hβ would much rather have seen the Government provide for the much-needed railway to serve the East Coast district of Wellington, or the railway through the King Country to Kawhia. He did not deny that the railway sta-

tions at Auckland, Wellington, and Christehurch would bear improvement, but they were yet sufficient to serve the' needs of the population for somo years to come, and in the meantime ho thought the policy of any Government in New Zealand should be' to go on with the extension of new lines. Efficiency the, First Consideration. The Hon. A. L. EERDMAN (Attor-ney-General) said that the Opposition was clearly of the opinion that the railways should be left in the same state of chaos in which they were when the Government came into office. Such was the state of the system that the Government had to employ an expert, who had had to recommend an expenditure of upwards of £3,000,000 in order to bring the system up to date. The Opposition did.not wish to see the railway system improved. They said: "Leave the railway system alone." If the public dosired any justification .for the appointment of a general manager it was the very able, report Mr. Hiley had presented. In "Wellington there were three stations, and three yards, and three staffs, and not all together were sufficient to carry out the work of the railways to serve tho port. In view of this, what course was open to a wise' Government? A wise Government had only one course open —to go on with a scheme to make tho railway facilities commensurate with tho aieeds of the port. And in any case, the Government did not propose to borrow all the money''to be authorised in one year, .so that, the scheme, was not such a, plunging one as was alleged. The fact of the matter was that owing to the mismanagement of previous Governments the railways of this country had been allowed to get into an obsolete state. What was the use of spending money on new lines when, because of the non-expenditure of capital tho present railways were not able to carry on the work they were required to do.

Mr. M'Kenzie: They are able to do it. Mr. Hordman (laughing derisively) said that if the honourable gentleman would ask any farmer in the House whether the railways bow were able to carry produce to market always as rapidly as was necessary he would get a very different answer. About Locomotives. Mr. W. A. VEITCH (Wauganui) said it was absurd to say that tho Now Zealand Railways were not efficient. In every branch the work done by the Railway Department was of a very satisfactory character, and Mr. Hiloy in ids report had had to admit this. He deplored tho fact that all tho money to bo borrowed under the Bill was to be spent in large centres, while not a single settler would get a railway any nearer to his land. He was going to use all the influence he could to prevent locomotives from being imported into New Zealand, because he could say from experience that the locally-built locomotives were doing better work on tlie railways than those which had been .imported in the past! It was stated that tlie shops here were, going at top speed, so that it was impossible to build more locomotives here, but he saw no reason why , the shops should not be enlarged, and more men employed. The Department had now some 600 engines, and scaicely two of them were alike. He would suggest that instead of more experiments, the Department should set about getting a standard typo of engine. Mr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) condemned the policy of the Government in suggesting expenditure on railway stations, duplications, -and the like, while new construction on necessary lines was being stopped all over tho country. Ho disapproved strongly of Mr. Herdman's apparent slight on the work of the late General Manager, Mr. Ronayno. If Mr. Ronayne had been given threo millions to spend whiilo ho was in office he would havo been able to do something with it, probably just as much as Mr. Hiley was likely to do. It was a fact, ho declared emphatically, that work was virtually stopped on tho East Coast line. Tho small contract system had proved an absolute farce, and men who had'completed their contracts were now going about tho country looking for work. Mr. Fraser interjected that public works were not being stopped, and denied 1 that contractors wero now idle. Tho Hon. A. L. HERDMAN, in a personal explanation, said that ho had never attacked Mr. Rouayne. Tho responsibility for tho condition of our railways he laid at the door of tho previous Government. ITe had never blamed Mr. llonayne, for whom he entertained a very high regard.

In Defsnco of the Covernment. Tho Right Hon. W. F. MASSBY said that Mr. Hiley, a man of great exporienco and ability, after looking over the methods of railway mnnagcment in New Zealand, had declared that although probably established soundly in the first instance, the railways had not been kept in a state to cope with the work of tho country. And if nothing was done now to improve the sorvice, what would be the condition ten years from if nothing _wa^

done to bring it up to date? Especially was tho congestion very serious in the Auckland district. If members of tho Opposition were sincere in. their objections to the Bill lot them vote against it. That would test their sincerity. Mr. Massey went on to combat the statement that public works all over the country were being stopped. Nothing of the sort was the case. On the one hand tho Government aro accused of cutting down and stopping public works, and on the other hand witli trying to bribe- tho people with big expenditure.' What did members of the Opposition want? Did they say that in election year all public works should stop? It was said that expenditure was needed on rolling stock for railways. He admitted this at once, but this expenditure would be provided for out of the railway vote, and not out of loan money. The late Minister of Public Works had accused the Government of extravagance. He ought to be the last to talk about extravagance, and he recalled the deplorable extravagance following upon the fire in Parliament Buildings. It was a wretched muddle that followed, as honourable members knew.

Sir Joseph Ward (who nad just come into the Chamber): Nothing to your muddling. Mr. Massey (laughing): Tlie honourable gentleman is a good judge of muddling. Ho has come back from the r.orth, and from all accounts he has been muddling up there. Tlie Government, ho continued, had no intention of raising at once this money, or other loans for , which they would ask the authority. They would introduce another Loan Bill providing for expenditure on loads and railways, but thtey could not raise the money under either of tho two Bills on the market in its present condition. Later, after the war was iver, or perhaps, before the war was over, the money would be raised, but in the meantime tho Government asked Parliament to affirm the necessity for the loans.

Mr. G. FORBES (Hurunui) said that he believed a. good deal of money could be spent, and spent with advantage, in improving the railways, but this was not the point at issue between the Government and the Opposition. The Opposition contended that the present was not an opportune time for the borrowing of a large sum of money on railways already in existence, while there were so many back-country districts in need of new railways. Opposed to Extravagance. Mr. J. B. HINE (Stratford) said that the Bill was evidently the outcome of the General Manager's report, and that report bore out the view held for long by many members of Parliament—that tho Railway Department and the Public Works. Department should bo united. In regard to tho borrowing proposals ho was in disagreement with the Government. Since ho had been in Parliament ho had condemned excessive oxpondituro on ornamental public, buildings, and it seemed to him this Bill went in proposing expenditure of this class' than any other proposal over made to tho House. He hoped tho Government would accept amendments in Committee. He, agreed that more rolling stock and locomotives were necessary for the efficient work of the railways. Ho would prefer to see tho necessary new engines built in New Zeabut if they could not be obtained in Row Zealand he thought the Government should get them from abroad. Country settlers all over New Zealand, when, they asked for small goods sheds at wayside stations, could never get such modost requests granted. What were these .country sottlors to think in the fnco of this Bill? He was doubtful whether any of tho duplications proposed were warranted at present. He thought that if millions woro to bo borrowed for railways, the millions should bo spent oir railways for the backblocks. But he did not believe the Government, in introducing, the Bill,', had been actuated by any ulterior motives. I He would vote to. reduce the amounts I to be borrowed under the Bill. The Leader of the Opposition. SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said the proposals now made to Parliament were alarming. ,He believed that the increased indebtedness of the Dominion this year would not be less than eight millions. Part of this, of course, would bo war expenditure, and with this ho was in entire accord. Ho charged the Government with inconsistency in that they had always in Opposition condemned the Government for bringing down borrowing proposals, and now they brought down a wild, extravagant scheme of borrowing. The Prime Minister had declared, when he was Leader of the Opposition, that the country could not go on borrowing at the then rate, and yet he brought down now proposals for borrowing which were alarming by comparison. In regard to borrowing, lie charged the Government with flagrant breaking of pledges. Mr. Massey: That is not correct. Sir Joseph Ward'i reiterated Ms charge. Even tho General Managor, ho said, had attached to his report a warning addendum to the effect that his proposals were- formulated before the war broke out, and that in the face of them he could not urge tho immediate prosecution of the scheme. In the faco of this, the Government camo down with an extravagant Bill, and what was the reason of it? Tho/ plain fact was that the ' Government were electioneering. (Derisive laughter.) He was in .favour of the rapid prosecution of railway lines to serve the back country, and he was strongly opposed to the scheme recently introduced by which settlers would bo burdened with the task of building their own lines. Hβ was also in favour of the building of necessary new stations, and the electrification of the Hutt railway, but he did not favour all tho unwarranted expenditure set forth in the schedule of the Bill. Much of the expenditure on buildings proposed was not noiv necessary, and would not be warranted for many years. Hβ would rather see the Government go on with the expenditure of money on such lines as the northern Main Trunk. Probably the Prime Ministor would say he would provide for this also. ■Mr. Massey: You don't know what you aro talking about. Sir Joseph Ward said that "'.the fact was that the Prime Minister was trying to humbug the country for electioneering purposes. Tho country should not bo committed to expenditure of this sort put of loan money on public buildings. Truth About the Debt. Tho Hon. J. ALLEN (Minister of Finance) said that it had been a. practice of Sir Joseph Ward' 3 (when in ollico) to enter into big contracts without providing tho mene'y for them. Take tho enso of the Midland Railway, in which the contract price was very heavy, and not a penny was provided for it. Then Sir Joseph Ward had made huge commitments for advances to settlers and to workers, and had left only a small sum to cover the expenditure. The position with regard to the railways was that they needed improving. The- General Manager had reported on the nature of the improvements required, and the wovlt had to bo done. It was only pioposed to spend £430,000 in tho first your, and yet Sir Joseph Ward would lead tho country to beliovo that tho Government was going to plunge tho country into an expenditure of £3,250,000 in the 0110 year. Tho Leader of tho Opposition had made a speecli for electioneering purposes. Tho Government was going to borrow £2,000,000 for public works, from £'250,000 to £200,000 for roads, and to raise a war loan, which proved that Sir Joseph Ward's talk of an increase of £8,000,000 in the National Debt was without foundation in fact.. Borrowing and Electioneering. Tho Government had never really broken, pledges as wae ajleyed,. •I'herp^

had been no waste of borrowed money as had been the custom under the Ward Administration. It was quite wrong to say that' the present Government had ever denied that borrowing was necessary, but they had always contended that loan money should bo carefully conserved and economically expended. That pledge of the Government had been carried out to the letter. Sir Joseph Ward's reference to Mr. Hiloy's warniug addendum had been misleading. The real meaning of that addendum was that in spite of the war curtain of tho moro necessary works recommended, by him should bo carried out if possible at once. He wished to say a word about tho word "electioneering used so much by tho Leader of the Opposition. He would remind the right honourable gentleman that the Government were not responsible for tho scheme. It all originated with the General Manager for Railways, and to Bay that this was an electioneering scheme was equivalent to saying that the members of the Government had been in conclave with the General Manager concocting this scheme in order to buy votes. This was of course absurd. The echenie had not eyen originated with the Minister for Railways, who had simply endorsed the report made to him by an -expert. Tho honourable gentleman had said a good deal about the building of locomotives. But tho honourable gentleman knew the position very well—that the locomotives needed for our railways could not be constructed speedily enough for requirements in New Zealand. The honourable gentleman had in fact been under the necessity in his own term of administration of the railways of importing locomotives from America. In spite of this, however, the honourable gentleman had never taken the opportunity of increasing the locomotive huilding capacity of our own works. It was absolutely impossible for tho works now equipped for the building of, engines to build them anything like quickly enough to meet our requirements. The Report of an Export. The honourable gentloman had looked through the report and alluded to certain portions of it, but did he not know that all these works were necessary? The honourable gentleman knew that it was necessary to build a new railway station in Wellington and to rebuild the Auckland Station, and he knew that if proper use was to be mado of our rolling-stock certain gradients and curves must be eased and certain lengths of line duplicated. He ventured to say that a gentloman wjio knew the railways as the' Leader of the Opposition undoubtedly did would not venture to vote against any one of tho proposed works. Tlie Government in order to have them carried out would have to enter into large contracts, and the sensible thing to do was to make provision for the finances beforehand. The Bill wns a borrowing Bill, but it did not moan that the money would be borrowed at once. It meant that within" five years these works would bo carried out if possible, and that as the money was required it would he obtained. The report of the General Manager was the report of a railway expert and a business man, and these works he had advocated were necessary in the evolution of our'railways from a steam tramway system to a main trunk railway system. Tho Government pledged themselves to spend money carefully, and lie believed that the expenditure proposed would result in so much cheapor running cost of the railways that the interest on tho loan would be entirely saved to tho country. ' . ■

Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Hutt) said that ho was prepared to go into the lobby against the Bill, and had already arranged with someone to tell for him. He believed that the money proposed to bo spent on interlocking appliances should be spent, and that additions should bo made to tho Newmarket and the Potone Railway Workshops, as proposed. However, there were other works which should not be gono oii with at' tho present time. He wanted to know what immediate necessity there was for proceeding with the new Wellington Railway Station. The present was not a suitable, time to go on the market to borrow money for works of this sort. Messrs. J. Payne, H. G. Ell, J. A. Hanan, and J. V. Brown also spoke in the debate. THE CARDS ON THE TABLE, A DECLARATION OF POLICY. The Hon. W. H. HERMES said he had listened to tho debate with a great deal of amusement, becauee most of the criticism could better have waited until the Public Works Statement had been brought down. He wished to say at once that the money to bo spent under the Bill would not in any way lessen the amount to be spent on public works. This expenditure under the Bill would be supplementary to that under the heading of ''Additions to Open Lines." He denied that the General Manager had issued any warning to tho Government against going on with the scheme; he had rather said that the work ought to be proceeded with if this was at all possible.

Sir J. Ward: Are you prepared to borrow money at 5} per cent.? Mr. Horries said that the Government were not, and probably no money would be borrowed under the Bill this year or next year.

Mr. 11. W. Smith: Then why drees the window with it?

Mr. Herries said that if the Government had had electioneering in mind they would not have brought down the Bill, realising as they did that it would probably be used against them in the country districts.

An hon. member: You think you have the country seats safe. Mr. Herries: Yes, and most of the city seats, too. He went on to say that tho report of Mr. Hiley was not influenced by him> in any way, but he considered that having received the report he was bound to present it to Parliament. Haying done this, he accepted responsibility for all it contained. He endorsed Mr. Hiley , s opinion, and ho was glad to say that the country had been fortunate in securing the services of such an able man. This ho could say to the House with assurance—that unless somo of these works were proceeded with at once the Railway Department could not do its business. Especially was exponditure necessary at the terminal stations. Auckland, as an instance, was overtaxed now, and unless something were done at once, it would be impossible to deal with the traffic there ten years hence.

Choking the Arteries. He believed that the country lines should ho built as rapidly as funds would allow, but if the Government went on multiplying the feeders without equipping the main arterial lines to cope with tht extra traffic coming from the. new districts, there would result a block in the main lines. This had been the experience in New South Wales. There they had built their feeder lines and suddenly all railway expenditure had had to be diverted to duplication of the main lines into Sydney. The Government had received Mr. Hiley's report, and this Bill declared their policy with regard to that report. They did not propose to go on with all tho works at once or to borrow all the money at once, but they had shown by the Bill the full extent of their proposals. This had not been the policy of past Governments, who had cliosou the easier course of getting small loans through tho House from year to year, but it seemed to him to bo a much more straightforward action for the Government to lay all their cards on the table, and say "Thoso are our proposals." Mr. I'orbes: With tho joker up your sleeve. Mr. Herries: That's just tho sort of idea I would expect from the honourable geiitionjan, l'erhans the Govern.-^

went may produce the joker when the numbers go up, after next election. No Splendid Buildings. In the matter of buildings, he continued, it would not be his policy to embark upon largo and costly buildings eimilar to the edifice at Dunedin. But ho was strongly of opinion that radical alterations were absolutely necessary now at Wellington and Aucklsmd', where work was carried on under extreme disadvantages. Somo honourable members had said, "But small patching will do." Ho could assure honourable members that the small patching had been done. It had been done by previous Govornment3 who had shirked the responsibility of approaching the House for a loan. He had come to ask for a loan because he knew that the longer it was delayed the bigger the loan would have to be. Shortage of Engines. The Bill did not deal with locomotives, which were fully provided for in the Additions to Open Lines vote. The position was that Price Brothers at Thames would be fully engaged for two years, and that no more engines could be' turned out at Addington or Hillside. In reply to incredulous interjectors ho said that he did not believo that by putting on extra shifts the speed of production could be accelerated. Mr. Young: Is the skilled labour available?

Mr. Hemes said that lie could assuro the.House that if it was at all possible to have the engines necessary, built in. New Zealand ho would have them built here. He believed the Department had ample rolling stock with the exception of sheep trucks, and this shortage was being supplied, but they were still very ehort of engine power. They proposed to equip the Newmarket' Workshops to build engines. This would take from eighteen months, to two years, but when the equipment was complete he hoped the works would supply all our needs. However, time was" of the essence of the contract, and it was impossible .that the engines could bo supplied in Netf Zealand in time to meet the rapidly'growing needs of the Railway Department. ■ ■• The division on the first motion fol* lowing the presentation of the Message was in favour of tho Bill by 37 votes to 20. Following was the list:— For tho Bill (37): Allen, Anderson, R. F. Bollard, Bradney, Buchanan, Campbell, Craigie, Davey, Dickson, Escott, Fisher, Fraser, Guthrie, Harris, Eerdman, Hemes, Hiudmarsh, Hunter, Lee,. M'Combs, Malcolm, • Massey, A. K. Newman, Nbsworthy, Okey, Pearce, Pomare, Reed, R. H. Rhodes, T. W. Rhodes, Scott, F. H. Smith, Statham, Sykes, G. M. Thomson, Wilson, Young. Against the Bill (20): Brown, Burton, Carroll, Coates, Colvin, Ell, Forbes, M'Callum, MacDonpld, M'Kenzie, Ngata, Payne, Rangihiroa, Robertson, Russell, Seddon, R. W. Smith, Ward, AVilford, Witty. For the Bill: Mander, Buick, E. New. man, J. Bollard, Clark. Against the Bill: Myers, Veitch, Webb, Hanan, J. C. Thomson. (Left Sitting.)