COUNCIL REFORM BILL.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2215, 30 July 1914, Page 4

COUNCIL REFORM BILL.

THROUGH COMMITTEE WITHOUT SERIOUS ALTERATION. DULL DAY IN THE HOUSE. V WAGES OF I WOMEN'AND BOYS INj WOOLLEN MILLS.

THE COUNCIL ~

The; Legislative Council met at, :2;80 i P ni , The Land-tax and income-tax :Bill was i put through all stages,'and passed-with- ] out amendment. ■ - .• ■ A FIRST READINCS. -The FruitP-reserving-Industry Amendment Bill,vt,hCLocal;Mectipns' A.mendnient;Billy,;tho;HarboursAmend-: ment 'Bill, and the Victoria College. ; Amendment Billvwere read. ; a first timei" COMMITTEE REPRESENTATION. Several motions .'dealing ' with the resting of land-were* moved- by the Hon.' R. Moore, for the Lands Committee. ThejHon. G. JONES-raised :an.objection to the lack of„infoniiation giv&Lto'. the Council. He I 'contended that;.{hc,' Lands; Committee consisted of members vof ''one side,!'' with the exception of ;, tho Hon. Mr. Mills, who was hod 'pre'- : 'sent at the was a; significant stud;; thafc iio . member .whose"view2smightl,be'', opposed . to tte f Qoj^nim&fr'^,l^)'^ufc:<ihAany ; committee that had a l .;political' bearing. lion. vH.j'.iD. >BELL faslied tho • Council to accept>hlsr ; assurauce ,that in. committees l.hhre r had not ■ taken; the!,least regard" of • what -might be the hon)', political .views;,: ; He endeavoured, -to the best of his ability, to place uflon : th'e committees hon. gentlemen most-'Competent to deal with, v the subject. He did not think that the" Hon.-Mr. Jones could'-compare/in the matter of knowledge of land, with somo of the new members. ' If any', member had expressed a preference to serve on . any particular, committee, he.„ would have _ strained' every effort: to have; him ippointed. - He. had. ii'ever refused:to appoint a member to any Committee that he expressed,a.preference.for. ... The Hon.'C. H. MILLS pointed out tlmt .when-notico was; given of . the'setting . Bell said that he would'be prepared'to . act on any suggestions made by members to alter the personnel of any committee. ; DESTROYED FOREST RESERVES. The Hon. J. BAKEt opposed a motion the Council ■ saw no- objection to •withdraw 181 acres of land in the Otamatea County, Auckland, from, reserva-. tion;.;under the; State Forests Act; Rg-' ferring to tho report of tho Lands Com- ■ mittee that the trees had been burnt down, and now had no value,- Mr.- Barr, said., they would be 'encouraging burning Occidents on forest reserves. Then there would be nothing to stop adjoining 'settlers applying to acquire the Jand; Ho suggested that they should -replant the land. Further information;;should be "giveirbefore the Council agreed to any reserves being withdrawn. The Hon. H.-D. BELL said that when the .'bush had been destroyed the land became a' place where 'noxious weeds , grow;. It. was quite .open -to.: suppose > that] adjoining owners might be induced to lit any J firtfraige]».bnr<mbe''flie'' : l»ees' were' burnt'tho Government had to take steps to prevent..the land lying ,idlo. SmalL and ficattered areas could not be . allowed to' 'remain : 'unsettM. ; It'was true" that. they generally fell into {he.hands of adjoining, owners. ;• He. hoped Mr. 'Barr the humour of replanting trees'- Where'- {he* firestick was likoly to come.V . ... . The Hon,. W. C, P. CARNCROSS sup- . ported the Hon. Mr. Barr's remarks. I He did not have one particle of-:trust . .in. the reports.ot the.Department.-which-'was 'administoriug the particular Act.-) Reports were often iniluenced to enable-; land-holders■ .to -1 , secure additional. 3and._ He instanced a case where a beautiful scenic reservo in Taranaki was last .year reported on as being of no .value. He would later on inquire what ,'was?heing done with the reserve he had mentioned,in Taranaki; all he know was that"; the sale had beenJstopped. SIR mi. HALL--JONES. thought '.that; without strict inquiry,' -they were encouraging settlers to set fire to isolated reserves. Very few of the memibers,;of the council had seen the paper dealing with,.the land.. ,Acting on the I suggestion of '{he Leader, Sir William -'Hall-Jones moved tho 7 adjournment of i the debate, in order that more informa- | tionYshould be gh'en'on the ma'tter. j ' The Hon. G. JONES supported the .-amendment, and reverted to Mr. Bell's , statement about the setting up of com- ; mittees. Slot like.'the ideasthat-' (members Should go to the Leader and j ask to he put on cpmmitTees. He woiild I,wait 1 till Doomsday before doing so. ' The Hon. R. MOORE said that they had to take the report: of .the officiafg of the Department. It was all tho information, they could get. lt ' • The debate'was adjourned till Friday,'

COUNCIL REFORM.

OF QUALIFICATION. ' > The* Council Bill - Was considerecl' : iii* Committee" H J 'Bio Hon. J. Dutliio moved an amendment ,to, Clause 17, Sub-clause / (1), whicli.sets out who'may bo clected. The clause "Any person .who under the provisions of the principal Act may be elected a member of; tho House, but' no other, may be elected'a member of the Council, except that a member of the House, may; not be a'membar of' the Council.'/ The Hon. Mr.: Duthie's amendment was to omit the words "except that a member, of tho House shall riot be elected 'a member of tlie Council," and to substitute the following words"Provided tliat a'person shall not be; elccted—(a)who is a member of tho House, or '(b) wlio is not at least 36 years of age; or (c) who has fiot been '"for at least three years either a member of the Council or the House in New Zealand, or Mayor of some city in New Zealand," or for at least Ave years a member of the council of a county or borough in". New Zealand." The Boil. Mr. "Dutliio said that he thought it' was the- unanimous . opinion that the niembors of tho Council should be' mcn of somo ago and experience. Their special function was to be above giving way t6 popular excitement, and thoy should deal -with the; matters before therewith the weight of tho experience they had gained by age. With that object Tie had put an ago limit of 36. Then the range of membership had to be considered. '. He had suggested previously that a member might be oi'io ■who wus the holder of the degree of a •university, but had dropped that suggestion. He had not consulted' the Minister, but he hoped he would see' that th'e proposed amendment would Mr-ia fltaia Council. Ha would enlarge

the qualifications by the inclusion of harbour board chairmen. The' Hon. H. D.. 801 l regretted that he could not accept the amendment. He could not see'why members'in the Council should l.liave qualifications above thoso ofHlre lower House. He even agrke| with the minimum age proposal. . Popular election was all they could depend on, and the large electorates, woiildiensure that only well-known • ( mcn';would; be appointed. 1 1 Election of Women. ■The Hon. J. t. Paul contended that tlie day was past for ..any artiffSai distinctions or false barriers against the will of the'people. If the Council was •foolish enough to put their opinions against the' will of the people, those opinions were going to be swept away. Personally he would amend the clause to allow any person to sit in the Council., By that he meant that women .'sliould be allowed to stand for election. ' With, the advance of womanhood suffrage,'they .could not for long debar women .a right of representation.. Some of the y safeguards laid down by the Hon. Mr. Duthio were useless, \yisdom did not, come from experience on ' such bodiec as named. j , The Hon. W. Beehan thought there waa.algood deal in the suggestion put forward by the Hon._Mr. Duthie. He was a man of experience, and he (Mr. 1 Beehan) was surprised the Leader had not-accepted the amendment. ' The Hon. W. Morgan said that, if the electorates .were small he might be inclined to vote for an age limit. But with tho large electorates the candidates would necessarily be of some age and standing. In addition members of local bodies wore not always tho most suitable for election to the Council.

The .Hon. J. Barr pointed out that in various Australian States , the qualifications for election included an age/ limit of thirty years, so there was some pound for Mr. Dutllie's argument. But m -Ndw. Zealand the cry was "Ti-u'st the ,people,".knd when any important matter; came up it was left to a referendum. So he was going to trust the peop'o on this Bill. .

The clause as printed in the Bill was passed on the voices-. ((

Maori. Representation. The Hon. -S.!: T.' George-;proposed- to strike out,Clause,2o, whjeh.provided for the nomination:'to ihe'Council of not more race. He the should be applied to;-the Natives, and they should''Be',treated .the. same way as Europeans. --. • r •'' '' • ' The Hon. H; 'D. 'Bell' said that tho Maoris did j not', votaj .by ballot..They could not apply'the''system'. of 'proportional representation! to the i'Maoriß. • The Hqni J. T.'. Paul thought the Maoris, once, they-had.nominated .members, should be prevented from' having any voice in thei election ! of; European members to the. Council. There was nothing at present to prevent'them doing so !

, The Hon. tf._ D,; Bell said that unless the Maori was qualified "fri get on the European roll, to' TOte : 'for.'members of the Lower House, lie. could, not; vote for members of the Council. ■

The Hon. J.' T. Paul, thought the Maori would be; able to get 'over-repre-sentation-by'that' system: i-He would move, under the circumstances, that the number of nominated, members should .be two. 'i.,' '

.The Hon. Sir Geo. M'Lean; thought there should -be some' way of; electing the Maori members.;;. He suggested that the clause 6H'ould.be deferred; for further consideration;-. ■ • '.•»•

The Hon. H; D. Bell , said that if he could devise-a clause for proper representation of ;the Maoiis by' election he would do bo, -but he ..thought 'the only way was to follow tho course or the past, and'/ take representative 'members of the IKori 'raco. favoured threo represenStTyes. for; tho Maori ; race, to ensure proper representation for the South 131 jiifdi ! -j-' ; '.Beehan -'thought that two meml&rs; was enough,^Mi'n••fact,; -it -.was- mora tim said. '; The Maoris;-weie not tW'childrp|they ivere thirly years ago. The Hpnj: G.' ; 'J9'nes supported velcction • • >;Ifr - the system: of electionsgyjS right, for/ another .-'placc, surely it' was : right for the Council. The Hon. H. D. Bell thought it was .unfortunate that neither of the Maori y-^jg-esehtatives" was present to express his views on the matter.

The Hon. R. Moore did /not think there was any danger of the Maoris being over-represented by transferring : thcirjvotes-from the Lower Houso ana voting for European members for the Council.,;. The Maori race took a keen interest' ill' the election of members to the Lower Houso. They should pass the claiiße,'and if, in the future, it was found that it was not. giving satisfaction, they could make an amendment. , Sir Wm. Hall-Jones failed to seo why ' tHe elective principle should not be adopted. He supported the Hon. Mr. Earnshaw in his suggestion to divide; the North Island into two Maori electorates, ,and to treat the South Island, as one. . The Hon. C. Louisson thought the clause should bo postponed to enable those members who supported an elective "scheme to put their proposals before the Minister. '! The Hon. >H. D. Bell: I have offered to recommit the clause if necessary. A division'was taken on the proposal to. reduce the number of Maori representatives from three to two. Tho amendment' was lost, voting being 16 to 11 in favour of, allowing tho clause to remain as printed. The division was as follows:— Ayes (16).—Bell, : Aitken, Dutliie, Barr, Louisson, MncQibbon, Earnshaw, Sir M!> O'Rorke, Moore, Dr. Collins, Fisher, Morgan, Hardy, Maginnity, Wigram, Simpson. Noes (11).—Baillic, George, Paul, Jones, Beelian, Baldey, M'Lean) Sir W. Hall-Jones,-Harris, Thompson, Mills.

Nomination v. Election. Discussion was then continued oil the clause as a whole. 1 Tho Hon. H. D. Bell proYnised to recommit the clause if any suggestion was made for an elective principle. He protested against voting the clause out. Sir "\Vm. Hall-Jones suggested that the clause _ should bo passed without a division, and then when a system of election for Maoris was proposed tho clause could be recommitted, ami they would have something definite to vote on." If a division was called for lie would vote for the clause, otherwise he would bo sunnnrtiflc a proposal

to take representation away from the Maoris. . , The Hon. J. Ban- called for a division on the clause. It was carried by 18 votoß to 9, the Noes being I The Hons. George, Jlarrj Louisson, Jones, Beehan, , Baldey, M'Lean, Harris, Thompson. " The Hon. H. D. Bell promised to bring down a clause to place, somo restriction on the number of candidates. Special Election by Ballot. The Hon. H. D.. Bell moved a new clause, making provision for tho special .election'of members by ballot to main-tain-the* fiill . strength of the_ CounciJ, forty, members, tilf the elective principle becomes fully, oporative. The clause was added. The remaining clauses and the first and Becond schedulo were passed, and progress 'was reported. Tie Bill was referred to the Statutes Revision -Committee to 'report on. the third schedule. The Council rose at 10.5 p.m.