PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2200, 13 July 1914, Page 8

PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY

POSITION CLEARLY DEFINED. . 'A STRAIGHT RUN FOR, ALL. The Prime Minister said that he was very pleased to have heard tlio Tcpresentatioils, of the deputation. .They.'had been somewhat leiigthy—moro : 'lengthy than he had expected or intended —but ho'hail-thought-it-a--pity to interrupt the different, speakers. < It was as well to hear everything.' The first speaker had said that, the Government had not treated tlio National Schools Defence League properly .in reference ,to this matter. (Hear, hear.) Thei-o -was an--other side to that story.' Reference had been made, to what he had said to a deputation a year previously. He had before him every word, that he had littered on. that/occasion. Amongst other things he said-(the report' was iii tho third person): -. "Perhaps he might not be as good: a diristiaii as he --ought to be, but he wanted to 'tell -the ; deputation - this: that he believed in'-the Biblo ' '. and stood Biblo-evcry time. In saying tliat'ho was opposed to everything in the shapeof sectarian-. , ism'in.the ,schools of the country." ' "Isay • that';>iiow," commented ' Mr. Massey. (Hear,'-hear.) "It was a sorry state of affairs," "he continued, "when -the.Christian sects combined to keep the Bible out of the public schools of this or any other country." As he-had stated to a deputation on the previous day, it ; was ; a -sorry state of attaits. when {he Christian sects could'not combine to arrange ?a system by _whicli Biblical instruction could .be imparted' in tho, schools from tho very best Book, histori-' cally or otherwise-— : - A deputationist: Out of school hours ? . Another' deputationist: Religion taught in the State schools? ..- f. Mr. Massoy :! "In. school ■ hours or out of school hours. ; Don't put words into 'my mouth!.. What" I said then is-,quite consistent, with what I have' said 'since!" This was', not- the -first -time-'that this matter -had been before the Parliament of.'this.'countiy. 1 He would ask the ■ladies .'and 'gentlemen present to ' look back' - such a'Joiig ~ way back-v-and - recollect : the Bill 'that was: introduced to : provide for Biblo lessons ■ in: schools. : It-was 'called.the ■Bible .Lessons iii' Public Schools. Plebiscite Bill, iiiid',was,'introduced' .'by. one of L the' Otago' members. There was a lon's .'discussion oil the Bill, and 'the, (division-, on . the ■ second reading was' been- .said pf 'the, Roman; Catho-lic-section\of.'-th'e community:.were, opposed,to a referendum being taken, -but attention to '[the way' in.,wliich..-,members: diament,>' who"!'-;belonged^# Mr';:.- '.Mas's'ey: '■■.then;'. ;iread' Vthe;list!. of . Ayes (39)Aliio'n,. E. G:' Allen, ; Arnold;' Baume, Bedford, Buddo, ;'Davev,'Duncan,:Ell, Field. FlatmaiiJ W.' Fraser,,.- Graham,' Hall-Jones, '.' Hariani"'Hardy; Hawkins,' Herd- . man,!.'Hemes,'" Houston; Jeniiings, .!! ' Kirkcaidie, Lang, • Laurorison, 'Lewis, ' Mander, 7 Massey, -.'MINab, . , Moss," Held,' Rhodes, Tanner, J.iC, , / Thomson;' J.': Wj-'iThoiiisoii;.'■■ Vile.. "Ward, Willis. •'. Tellers—Aitken/' : ,;Sidey",'!;•/;'!;-/'•'■ '!t : ;"'!!!' ' 1 • Case for the Referendum; .: ,Mt..-- Herdman:! Did -.not' that Bill .co'iitaiir conscience: 'clause'-' for teachers? ,-v,v,<... :, ; Mr.,- Massey:. Probably it "did,' but there was'.tlie prixiciple.' ; .It was .not'!ai question of';-Bible '.-reading; in 'schools,,' v but- a;question as -to,whether a plebiscite ■ was the! question:' aiid not whether there should be 'a 'conscience. clause or.-'anything; else. Mo/was inot acquainted! with r the 'relijrf--' ous. views : of lialf tlie ; membe!rs' : of the House/at the present time—it was not his business l to it-was well | known- that. Sir.'Josenh.. Ward was,a member of; the Catholic-section' of the community, , and Mr. ••Jennings also.' ■These., two gentlemeii.hkl -'voted, for, tho_ second'.reading of. the Bill 1 , - and by their votes had, approved - tho-proposal that; the question of Bible readmg\in schools .should be v referred- to!■ the ; public to.express'an. opinion, thereon'. "- v ; _:_At the'/request: of a deoutationist Mr. Massey read, the, "hobs'; in the 'diviRion.on Mr. Sidoy's Bill of 1905,.. and' ; also tho pairs:— : i - -Noes-(22): Barber. Bennetj Car- . roll, Fowlds,-- Hall, Harding, l Helce, 1 |w>9B> Kidd, Lowry. Leflibridire, JJaior, MGowan, T< Mackenzie, M Laclilan,' Millar. Parata, Seminc■ton. JWilford,- - Witty.' Tellers— •Eisher, A. L. D. Fraser 1 The -pairs were:—••; . ni^ or a 16 B'H : Buchanan, Duthie ■steward, Wood. ; r ... I-; Against! the.'.Bill:..Pere,-' : .'Rnther^' ford,-:Symes, Colvm. •' Majority; for,, .17. . ' ' ' " I ■ "No Use Quibbling." . A! voice: -The issue is'very-'-'different now. . ' :, ■ . v- ■ Aiiotheri deputationist': Was • not that tor,'undenominational . education? ; ; n .^ r - Massey: It is no.use quibbling. Ihe question was that of a referendum or/plebiscite as it was called—the question was whether the-public:should,have an' opportunity of. expressing sin opinion on-.tho ! ,very same Question- that is agitating 'the'public mind.now.' - ~1" - _A voice:. A different issue; tie of ,entry. 1 ° Mr. ; >Massey: Tle're was no difference in. tho issue. > Everything was included in , that; , Look at tlio discussion and look at tho Bill. Mr. M'Larcn: We are not-responsible for politicians. ' ' 1 Mr. Massey: You are a politician yourself. , Mr! M'Laren: Not in religious matters.. ' ... - '• •' Mr. Massey. said that ,fault had" been found witli tlio Government for allowing Parliament to express an' opinion on the question.' Why should not the! people have an opportunity of, expressing • ah opinion, on.this question. The last ■twoi' speakers had expressed themselves very strongly in favour of a fcferendum on geiieral principles, though not in a'pr plication ; to this particular! ; question!. They were, members , pf tlio Labour Party. ' He had -iji his. personal possession! dozens of' letters from workers' in different parts of Now, incnt trades unionists some of them— supiwrting and' asking for a' referendum. : . " .' 1 .- / ' A deputationist: As individuals.;Mr;. Massey: As individuals, yesj but trades ■ unionists, \and many! of them prominent trades: unionists. Ho continued that the Bill had hfwn introduced' bccauso' members, of tile. Government supporting the Bible in schools sido of the question \md those who did', not— the Cabinet was divided on the, question —agreed that when 140,000 lor 150,000 people asked! for an opportunity' of ex-, pressing an opinion at; a referenduni it would not be right to stand in tlio way of giving'people such aii.opportunfty if; .Parliament chose ,to give iC ' >" Not a Party Question. The Bill-was in: charge, of Mr. Allen, but'not .because he was Minister of Education—the Minister of Education had nothing.to do with it. This was not a party question, and no pressiire would be brought to bear.-upon.'any.',member of the House. 116 could not predict the result of tho AVhen it took place'he thought it possible that as many.'members ; of: tjio Csbinet would vote 'against'the Bill as would vote for the Bill. , A very, largo proportion of the people had asked,for an opportunity, of'expressing, au opinion on this particular question, ' and the Governmeiut was giving the opportunity—if Parlia-

■ mont thought thore should be a refouendum it would he held accordingly. In speaking of members of Parliament' ho referred to, both Houses, because i'ho Upper House had to agree, to the Bill before a referendum could be taken. T ftiey must not . imagine that tho details,' of this question would he settled if a referendum were taken. • A deputationist: It was in QuccSnsland, sir. . Mr. Massoy: I am explaining -tlio position here.. I say again that [you must not -imagine that tlie questioii is settled when a referendum is taken. -\ , A deputationist: You will find thatt it is. . . Mr. Massey: Even if a majority irote in favour of a referendum it will tjhen be for Parliament to arrango tlio details of the question. ! A deputationist: Tliey aro arrange:) In the Act. . _ ■ ~ Mr.'Massey: Parliament can alter it if it likes. ;. . ' ' A'deputationist: 'Then it is nofc .a \.referendum. / : i ' "Mr. Massoy: Strictly speaking, the term "referendum" is wrong. It ' is a plebiscite. He explained that "referendum" applied to legislation tpassed by Parliament, and, submitted '!, afterwards to a popular vote, while 1 (plebiscite" meant a vote taken on piioposed legislation. If three-quarters iot the people of the country," he went/ on' to remark,',and that was a tolerabljy largo proportion, voted for the proposal, it would - then be. for Parliament !to arrange every 'single detail. ,f . , A voice:, You- will find' that< Canon Garland has. got you by the Lade wool ! Mr. Massoy: I assure you that-my hands;are.nottied. Parliameilt, if it felt so : inclined, could alter tho'question. Oiytho second reading tlio question would bo whether the Bill 1 should go any/further, j -After that i(j w°ujd be dealt with, in Committee ' *pf .the. Whole, and every lino and cveily word would, be considered, and altered ' or amended as members -thought piioper. . Mr. :- Knowles-Smith:, In thin quos-, i lion wo aro'absolutely tie.d up. : . • Educating the/ Publio. • * Mr. Massoy A said that he nias hot goirig -to express an'opinion; he liad his .own opinion, but: it was for "Parliament to say iu Jwliat form tho question i should be submitted to the people of th b country. "It liad been said that tho National Schools Defence League h:id been taken unawares, and had not h;£d time to educate tho people'of , the.',cpuntry. This same speaker, had gone oh to 'say .that/the jßihle-in-Schools League had not- gone the length of holding'' publio meetings.-.; -He was .inclined'.think they had. ' . /■ ' > , A', deputationist: No, they have npt. Mi'. Massey said he had : read! • some 'time ago;about /a .huge .public' meeting at Auckland., . ; ' ,\ , ' /A only, i Mr. Massey: I am not prepared to a'rgiio that, poiiit; v. Tho point; ;I ; was , arguinf;. was, • thisthe people -. jon : itho other ."side of' the' : questibn,' tne'Na'tional I Schools 'Defence/LeagUe, have helij a : .and,':th'f : .other." sido havo not. Has not'this.beien edu-. eating tho public? . A deputationist: They ; havef ' been . ■ working'for two years in the country districts., ' We have not goF th'6're.yet. .' Mr. .Massey : ,You may he right, ibut' you prove m,y point—, ;-.'" j'Vvi, . A deputationist :: They are procticnlly turning' their church services int<!> pdliti-: cal meetings..,,., •• v , ;■y-.--1 : - , Mr.' Massy :',.You.;say you- cati't'-J 'do. ': the iwork in tho. time, but' the ele c tioai: Is' not going 1 , to take place next -wfeokrtt is, five months away. Memb'inrs: ! "of Parliament would' lmvo ;only a . month in which to ;convert their conslfituents • to their/oiyn "views; . If members : of ' Parliament could do this in a. -month, surely ' agreat, powerful organisation i like. the ' /.National Schools DefeucoJ League could do it in five months. " •' - ProfessorvM'Kenzio: We hitvo" no churches; we have to ,do it outi of our- 1 ■own'pockets; '•••■ " ' Mr. M(tssey,':/raih' sorry- to' b'fcar you" have no churches. ' / ' ' /, Somebody, 'mentioned' Hansardf, / . suggesting- that it' would, bo of assisllanco to members of Parliament: \ /- , p.';., ."'Mr'.,,Massey: "Very few pe'oplle read?' Hansard." l He added that' tholugh ;he /did not know very much about it,!' ho was.jiiclined* to think 1 that/thore, was '| iust about as .much money on <mo side, as on tho .other. ■ ■ ■ ; Professor- .Hiinter said tliat tl>e' chiir-' ches/used.'their'/buildings, ' upon /which 1 they/dicVnot pay,any rates. and fces.'V. i f Mr. Massey:-Do you-suggest that thev should do so? ' ■ Professor, Hunter :• Certainly; they are political organisations. : ' : i'. ; 0 /' ; '' . Mr.-Massey;/That .is: 'getting;'' Vway from tho subject. 'You are dratwing a red herr.ing'across the scent! ' . ' The Campaign Funds. ■ r 'A deputationist' said ffiat'tte i' contriof noil-supporters of the ; !league' had been \ taken ; from /collectionbojes, i and used for tlio of the lfeague.. i . Mr. Massey said that the int'Srjector no doubt thought that what he was;! I saying, was correct/,but he kney.r some-, thing about Church management from personal' experience, and did' not believe that it was possible for col leJtions io bo used for any other p'urpofie.'than the maintenance of the cnurch.' ' . / / A deputationist: . Special collections have been'taken. / ' V.' Mr.; Massey : Ah, tliat 'is a different thing. :. Then , there was a .sug|j;estion, he added,'-that an opportunity ; should be given the National' Schools' iDefence League of putting : their ' side' ,of 'tlie question .before a Parliamentar;)' Com r mittee. , There • was no 'difficult}! .about that. It was alreidy arranged, ii largo number;of petitions had been'presented to Parliament for and agaiii'st-'liho Bill ho .thought against '• ■ A voice: Only starting!, - .Mr. Massey: !'They will .be, ijeferred to a. committee,- I think tho Education Committee. Evidence will be tf(keii by the committee, and you people will have an, opportunity .of ■ coming .along ,'and putting your side jjist 'as:'-'tho"'other-people will.-pon't imagine' thaji there is any intention oh. tho part fbf. the. ..Government to give -any advan tago to one side or the other'." 'They proposed to give everybody,a straight run,.and: •a -fair opportunity of saying irliether they would have Bible-reading in ;tho schools/or not. If they agreed, tliep he hoped that, such arrangementij would bo made;as would keep sectarianism:out' of tho public' schools of this 'C'ruintry. 'That was his position, and ho ivaiited them to understand it, because , to liim it seemed to bo clear, simple, and.' straightforward: Mr. Massey, rewairiked in conclusion ' that : he~ had noted \vith pleasure the.-knowledge of the' Bible ■indicated by the. different 'speakers] iii the number of ' quotations used," mid used with perfect correctness.. -Particularly lie had noted with approval itlie quotation of, the golden rule:' "Do vnito others, as,-you would that • they, ishciuld do unto you." ' ■ CAMPAIGN IN DUNEDIN. ; AN OPPONENT; CORNERED., j / | i By Telestraph.—Special Correspondent.. /.; Diinodin, July-1?(. - ; . The Bible-in-Schools Referendum" ißill bulks large and favourably in tho pulblio mind here, good, deal of spiace is devoted to the subject in the news-, pape'rs. In to-day's "Times" a cor'i'es--pondent' calls attention to a pamphlet circulated by ; Dr. Cleary, -which' (Contains a remarkably sane and argument for. the Referendum Bill./ in the shape of the. following reprint from a leading .article of'the "Otago Diaily/ Times," written a -liumber of years aigo: "Should tlio State tlii'ow obstnclei) in tho way of religious teaching of tho [rising generation by occupying tlieir wliolo timo and energies during five; day's! of tho. week? We. certainly think |the State should, not stand in r the : wa,y, and \irtually.say.your children, shall noli be I •religiously and morally trained.. (W"e even go' further and . say' that .- lajrge i

selections could bo advantageously made from the Biblo which would mako admirable reading lessons, but • to our minds the adoption of the selections to which'Wo have alluded would be a preferable and more logical course than tho whole undigested mass of Biblical writings into our public schools. As regards the provision for a spccial hour for religious instruction, guarded by conscience clauscs, tho reasons in its' favour are. wo think, stronger than the objections to it. If the denominations are united and earnest such a concession as this would, we believe, bo readily assented to by Parliament." Last night in All Saints' Church a well-attended meeting for prayer in connection with tho' Bible-in-scliools movement was held, presided over by the Rev. Dean Fitohctt. Something like a sensation lias been created by, correspondence,, appearing .in tho columns of the "Evening Star." Some days ago a correspondent sent to the • "Star'" an effusive, eulogy of the Bible-in-Schools and the Referendum Bill, pronounced by tho present editor of the "Tablet" when lie was a.candidate for Bruce in, 1902. At that period, at every meeting, lie posed as, a Bible-in-schools champion, and .was a devout Roman Catholio at the time. To-day, it is pointed out, he is assailing weekly the platform that he- formerly •" vocat • ed. The- "Tablet" editor hals-attend-ed to defend himself by saying tiiat there was. a conscience clause for teachers in 1902,. and no right of entry, but in to-night's '.'Star" a long letter -appears, showing - that the present, editor of; the "Tablet", declared 1 unreservedly for the Bible in'soliools without any qualification, about' a' conscience .clause., for tcachcrs, and as regards the right of entry difficulty, the correspondent refers him. to what has been done in Rome, with the cordial approval of tho Vatican. For years in Rome the Vatican hks, clamoured for .th'o; "right of entry" into tho seculaT. schools of Rome to' give religious denominational teaching, and on. March 21 last they'succeeded in getting the "right of entry." On that day.' 60 teachers entered the schools. , .'. . . v The critic of the ."Tablet" editor affirms that this teachers' conscience difficulty was invented largely by the "Tablet" for obstruction, and like the No Temere.Decree, it seems to be a thing of geography-and clime, .because tho Roman Catholic teachers in New South .■Wales :and elsewhere could supervise' the Bible lessons without injury to their faith. • -* ' •-. ; ,* Public meetings are arranged for in Dunedin next week,' at which the' Rev. Mr. Kcay, Congregational 'minister of Auckland,-will'take'part. './ .: y APPRECIATION. ' PLOWING; TIDE 01?; RESOLUTIONS. The executive of'the South Auckland' Provincial Committee of the Biblß-in-StatoSchpols League,.'representing,sooo members of tlig league in : ,the districts 'arojind. Hamilton,' lias passed a resoluItiqn thanking the; Government for bringing/in, the Referendum Bill, requested by 'tlie league, and urging' the members for.,the local electorates to support the Bill by their vote. Similar resolutions have/be'eii'. passed by tJio 'Pukekohe branch of the league, the Papakura and Waiulni branches /of '.tho Women's League/. theTestry of St. Paul's Anglican Church, Huntly, the congregation of . St. George's .Anglican Church, Thames; St;, John's. Aiiglican'Church,: Taruruj: tho Paeroa and Huhtly'branclios of tlio. C.E.M.S.; the managers of .tlie Epsom Presbyterian Church,' the Presbyterian/Churches/at; Te Awaniutu and Ellerslie; the Onchuriga -Methodist Cir-cuit,-the quarterly nioeting of the, Port : Albert-Methodist Church; the Salvation .Army, Hamilton;'the- Auckland and Ponsqnby branches of the-W.C.'r.U.; ,the general • branch of the Opawa League'; and the Turakiiia Presbyterian 'Church., On Thursday evening- last a public -meeting was held at Kirwee, in the Riccartpii electorate, when a . branch, of the Bible-in-State-Schools League :was formed, with Mr. J. M., Lawry.as'president, •Mr. A. H. Joseph as secretary, tho coin-, mitteo including'men and women'. Mr.. J. C. Adams, chairman of Canterbury College, addressed the meeting, and was followed by the meeting carrying a unanimous resolution, advocating tho,cause ,of tho league, the mover openly stating 'that iprior. to the meeting he had been quite, prepared to vote against the league s proposals. The resolution was' forwarded to, Mr.. Witty,, Mil 3 . . ' A BIG DEMONSTRATION. V The Bible-in-State-Schools League announces that a.' dembnstratibn in support of the demand: for the referendum is to bo held in the Town Hall this day fortnight, Monday, July, 27, at 8 p.m. ■ ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH MANI- , FESTO. - CIRCiJLATEp YESTERDAY."' / 'A manifesto by,'.the; Roman Catholic Hierarchy of New. Zealand on the sub-' ject .of the Bible-in-schools movement and tho proposed referendum,;or plebiscite, as the . authors of tho manifesto, prefer to .call it, was' circulated at the' Roman Catholic Churoli service's > yesterday. Hie manifesto, puts forward the case against, the plebiscite from the Roman Catholic Church's'.point of,view,' and goes on to critlcisetho ballot-paper. It is essential, tlio manifesto states, that "the .electors, should 'clearly understand the issue in its true sense, and in the same sense." This, however, is made an utter impossibility by, tho absurd; and bewildering form of reference provided in the Bill. ' And for these reasons:— ■ .... (a) Because of the things which it wrongly takes for granted. (b) Because of the ambiguities or misdescriptions contained'in wliat it expresses. ■ (c) Above all, because of its contro-. versial concealments or minimisings.. / "The root-proposal before the country is to set aside the secular system of public instruction, and substitute therefor a religious system. The fundamental", issue for ; electors,- then,' is ' this: 'Shall the system, of : public ' remain secular, as at present?' Now, as in-1903, the ballot-paper calmly assumes ono of two,things: (a),: That this' question has been p'ut'to the people:' that they have voted the. abolition of the secular-system; and that the only thing to determine , now is. -this:. What particular scheme of religious instruction is to be adopted? (b) The 'other' alternative assumption at the back of tho. ballot-paper is, if possible, an even 'graver'.misrepresentation: It.is. a sug-'. gestio'n that -the new scheme would be simply,something added, by way of ex-tension,-to'tho present .secular. system of-public instruction, and not(as it really would be) an' alteration of tho most radical and (as the ' "Outlook" says) 'revolutionary' kind in our Educational Act.-. . ' "The'ballot-paper in the Bill submits three . highly, complicated issues to tho electors. It does not-'allow the elector to vote.on them separately: lie must combine the six, separate and confused 'controversial issues, tTeat them as if they were one plain, simple issue, and Vote a single 'yes' or a single 'no' upon them all! As a matter of fact, the alleged 'three' issues contain no fewer than the six set down hereunder ■( "(a) The Government to provide 'selected. Bible lessons.' ' ' - , ■ ; "(b)' These, lessons to be read 'within school hours.' "(c) .-The teacher, to 'supervise' the reading. , "(d) 'No sectarian teaching to be allowed.' "(e) Right oF entry to clergy 'for religious .instruction.' ' . (f) Right of parent 'to withdraw his child from Biljln reading, or from religious instruction, or from both.' '?■ It is urged also that the ballot-paper proposed, m the Bill conceals from Ithe elector or glosses over' with fair seaming words, % following important mat-1

ters:—"(a) The Government is to pro-) \'ido 'religious instruction,' 'general religion,' 'general religious, teaching—in other words, a State religion, (b) This State religion is, admittedly, suited for tho consciences of only, one league or scction of tho peoplo. No such provision is to be made for tlio conscientious requiroriients of any other section of tho people, (c) Conscientious dissenters from the State religion will be uiiable to derive any advantago therefrom. But they will 'bo compelled to pay tithes (taxes) ,for • tlio compiling,, printing, binding, storage, distribution, and teaching _ of/ the State religion. They will Teceivo no • such State endowment for their own roligiojis beliefs, (d) Conscientiously objecting teachers will bo compelled to toach the new State religion, or bo driven, as if they wore convicted malefactors from the Public Service, (g) Tlio Irish proselytising conscience clause is embodied in the Bill. It claims, for the' Government,' the right to compel : all children to be ■ brought ! rip in the State religion, unless specially and individually exempted. The'Bill thus embodies tho leiigue's • demand for proselytism'by Act v of Parliament." ' y MEETINGS IN PETONE. DEPUTATION BEING ORGANISED. ■ A meeting of tils Petone Women's Branch of the Bible-in-Schools League, held in St.'Augustine's Hall, Mrs. L. Wright (president) occupying the chair, passed a resolution of ; appreciation on July 9, and tlie secretary, Mrs; Pickering, wTote asking Mr. AYilford to' receive a deputation jupon the but so far no reply has been received, either by better or telegram.' It isunderstood that upwards of 130' Hutt and Petone residents will form the deputation. On Thursday next at St. Augustine's. Hall, Petone/ a meoting will ho held of supporters •of the Bible-in-Schools. Bishop Sprott will ondeavoiir to be present, and other speakers will be - the Rev. Dr. Gibb, tho local clergy, and officers of Petono Salvation Anuy. ■ ' A debate , upon 'the' -Bible-in-Schools question, between the Rev. A; Stophensori '(St. Augustine's-Ghurch, Petone) and Mr. W. Foster, headmaster of the Petono District High. School, will probably take place shortly. J.Jr;. Stephenson will speak in favour- or, and/Mr. Foster against, the movement. •