THE-REFERENDUM BILL.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2200, 13 July 1914, Page 8

THE-REFERENDUM BILL.

SCHOOLS DEFENCE LEAGUE'S » <• OPPOSITION INTERVIEW WITH THE PRIME , , MINISTER MR. MASSEY SPEAKS PLAINLY V: r--;: v-r-'f;--: • '■■■•. r:-v ' . y f t v . - Protests against tlie'proposal'to allow * .-Parliament' to deoidoas to -whether or ■ not a referendum, shall bo;.taken on the ), proposall to introduce religious lnstruc-t'-on.-, into - the- , State Schools were mado by a. deputation representing , : thoi National Schools Defeneo League , ivluoli waited upon tlio Prime Minisr<; ter, (the. Itight-Hon. W. F.: Massey) on" v ; Saturday morning: ;.' In; addition - to > tho League, .there- wore -delegates present from Dunedin (the Hon. J. T. Paul), Asli- ■ :,:burton; (the Rev.i-Dr: Hughes),)Wanga- /, jiui (Mr; ,W. A". Vcitch,'M.P:), Hastings . (Profcssor ,Von Zedlitz),'. Auckland (Pas- ., - tor/ Meyers); . ;Napicr - (Mr.-, Cook), andPalmerston (Mr , D ' Buick) v.' Mr.., Hiram ; Hunter , and 'Mr:'A. Eos- ;. - sor Labour Conference ..fitting, m-. Wellington.) i-'/Fho deputation was introduced by tho Hou A L Herdman. '' , ' A Grievance. 1 Professor T A.'Huntc- said he wisli- ; ,ed.to plainly;,and candidly that .. leagupfelt-.it lia®fet-bemi -ly, by; the .Government. "When a depu- ■ .tation representing, tlie.league mterviewMr. last Mr.' Mas- : . sey-had said . that: ho' was utterly op- :..' 'posed to 'aiiyto bo'called ■ '.sectanamsm.'iiixthe-public schools—(Mr. • Massey::Hear,vhear)—and,•.-further,'that j.y so long.as lns 1 Government:remained in ■ offico nothing -would.bo done thai* wouldbo inconsistent-,with the pnnciple' of -. free, 'secular;/: and;.-compulsory ©duca-: -! tion;.;. .Upon; .thatrassurance-the league: ;■■■■. had supposed that ?if- any, Bill' were in-' troduced to a f _refercndum .it' would ; he a privato-'menlbers! iBill,", which would, „ -of course,- havojhadvno chance,ot getting 1 through tho H<Suse Tliey had/'therefore, not: organised;vand liad-beqn placed' -r:/.-at; a great disadvantage,<:and tho people ; . .i ivore not.enlightened on tho: realiissuos. . v It- wasclear thatj.tho ■ Bible^n-Schools given to thoi Defence League, and now jyat thO/firet . ; Minister of'Tiducation'.liid introduced' a 'V Bill frametf-'in 1 Suclr a iway as to facihLeague." This actionroti. tho'part of tho ■: Government, the;:Bible-in-V -Schools. League of-'the necessity for pre\seiitingi'thoui . r " . and so; making-,it;ppeni to .scrutiny,.:and -the Defence League/liad, ample'evidence' . that many •tWßible-'in- ,': s,petition card-had done .- -60 undor„a: misapprehension:.Tho-peti- ■ ■■■ tion.' card'-'-for) tlie.iinaintenanco- of. f tho .-:-v .prosent,system',had'been-already signed , -by.tens of-thousands of-' olectors,,and ; there had :beoll'no .SJ^sfematlc' y canvnEs. , Tile .Defeneo League /protested' against tlio: taking-of -a -referendum on ■ a., religi-: '\-.ous 'of '.ffie; ' • procedure adopted was that,, if the quesv ■.-! tion'..wero" decided :by. a-plebiscite at tho fj;': ■ • for those oppo'sed to .the Bible in schools - • to place their-'iviews bofor6 .tho,.public. ... v. In. jthe. they.protested i:.'a2ains'£{a;:'Gabinet- r Minisfer;^ ■ •a Bill "in aiiy but 'his. private capacity.. '' ' ' I' . 'Issues for tho Ballot. The• deputation;-;continiled Professor v Hunter, protested?emphatically;against •: /the 'omission from, the ballot-paper of v an. issue for the retention of the present v national system; which, should have its v. .j;: rightfu^'place';as;:tho'*fi_rst :^ - paper. -They also.contended against the yQ [ combination, of -two.'distinct issues;;and.aske4 t&at they-., be: separated-and. ade".•v. quately described* --He .would s suggest, •••/.» .the: . following - issues;; for the; ballot-. paper' J >-y ; -.y;" • (1) I voto foi; the present national ■■■■> i system, ofveducation;' free, icompul- : sory, and secular v ■' - • (2). I :■ vote ,that -tlfo '.clergy- . .he--v . given the right ;of entry into .State - schools within school- hours, to givo ■ • '.'SectariMi jteiiching;'. "• .'.x: v , (3) I>voto that; the State school ~' teachers, bo.-compelled:, (without 1 -a - 'v, conscience-. :dauße):v-to •; give - gsneral ?•'< , : • Those ;-wiio: desired to -. introduce • tho e . . New South Wales syst-em into New Zealand would veto for .(2) and (3). . / Bequests Formulated. .. . Tbe'.dcputation, said.Professor Huh--ter, objected strongly to tlio.proposal to haa nover seen —a book that : yek.confpiled.ThoyCohjected. to com- f :. •? 'give; general-Religious'; teach-, • : ing, oven -if they had conscientious thoideputation'v,would urge that as.'thc-'Govern-menfcaud Parhttinenfc-.had' no mandate on tho 'Bill-:, should'-bo ..•if withdrawn: - It; .idleuto'isay. that . the -ipresent procedure:-would prevent tho BiU-from.becoming a politicalissue; ;it -was'fa '.political j-issue; .'the jintroduc- : tion of ..the - Bill- had inado. it such. If the-Bill was proceeded .with, 1 the De- ■ ■. fence-Ixaguo asked: ; • (1) -That Cabinet-:and. the Education, ■ Department bo -completely ■ .-dissociated ; ';■ fron'i tlio Bill.•- *' Z '~'<-'-f (■'\ - (2) --Tliat if the'Bill'passed iits -sßcond : Tcaduig thfey should-; bo givoiu full opr - portuijity of' being heard, by -the Education Coninnttoo beforo the Bill was considered} by tho House -iu Comnutteo. . (rf^Tliat: the issues bo . divided-:-and-clearly'stated m. tile way indicated above. J (-l)jiThat/.tho; present jiational system lie .'-given-its rightful pkco on tho balJot papci 'j ' (u)'-That, no' ballot bo- taken -until the. proposed-text book had- been compiled . and the electors had-a:reasonable opportunity of becoming acquainted with ; its contents. ~V . . (6) -.Tli<<t provjsion bo mado for sulise-, quont "and regular referenda on tins nuostipn, as is ,tlic ease on tho licensing, poll, ".jv :(7);That in no case should any individual; -clerical or /lay,: boigivon tho appoint "a"substitute o to bivo lessons 1 in tlia Stato . schools within Echool'hours.■. -t-.-.-:, - * •. ..v ■ . .... -■ ' (B).oTliat a conscience clause-bo pro-. ;< videdgt vWf: -Covemmenf's. Responsibility. Professor. Hunter, stated, in conclu'Bion,»t&at; 'tliois§liithey liad:,been taken !• . this .would only mako them in their campaign. They : •; felt that it would bo most unfortunate if the : Government, ;whioh had done so ir.uchv'to . free • State - employees; from: | civil-arid political disabilities,' were now.| to be a' party. to placing-dii .teachors 'a i ;*fy . niorevserious "disabili'ty" 'tliffii'"thnit'-fqred-ibv any Oivjl-Servant in tho/historv bf'fcho-comitry—tlio obnoxious bur--'fieri ot.a religious lest. sThoy-know tho replji-that might bo offered—that tho (iovofrnment was\morcly 'giving iPnrlia- i , niont'-an opportunity of oxprossuig. an - • qpimoiij on-vthoyquestionV but. ho could: • ?ssurß-tho Phuio Minister that if bv i -.tho " v C'ibinefc s .action ran.v, injury was done 'ttf'^ur'educatioM^e^lmi'-'nliioh-,

was t'he -noblest-monument'to the sagacity, liberality, and Christian tolorauce of ; tho political leaders of tho past, the peoplo^ivould—and tho deputation behoved,' justly—hold* the Government responsible for. that injury. ( A Moral Contraot. Piofessoi Kitk said ho wished to present the case for, the tcachcrs', a majority: of whom felt; that they had a, right to ho heard'on tho matter, becauso they wore directly affected by it. It ' tho proposals wero carried by tho relcrendum, then tlio teachers who hud been many years in tho service would he called upon to: decide whether they should do a tlnng obnoxious to them, or refuse to do. it.- tho contract of employment; between the teacher .-and the; State was made this obligation on tho toachor to give religious iiistruotion, .to which hp might have conscientious objections, was no part of tho agreement. It was a moral contract,: binding on the ment, and tho importation now of an absolutely new condition of this sort was absolutely wrong- especially as there woro peoplo of all sorts in tho teaching . service, who would .not bo willing to give such religious instruction as might pe- prescribed.The advocates of tho' Biblo in schools.had said that.very fow teachers would leavo the service becauso of! this ne\y condition, but'they did'not ; say-that, by ."compelling the, teachers'te do something in'ord'er to earn' their lrtv iug which was contrary' -to: the dictates i .of ;their,'conscience; - the, State would be doing a grave moral wrong. Tho teacher was; the man .pre-eminently who Jiad a righ't .to be"-heard,',, because he w'as : the man who knew -how tho change would affect tho school life at every'turn.; And it- was'important .that t'lie man who knew .should be heard, especially when aii appeal was; being made by .;tho : other sido to emotion, and ignorance The Nelson system. 1 ; :'Professof;Kirk added l that he' beliey- ■ 'ed that there 'would be very little opposition i!. oil the'j part.. of the _ : Defence Leagueto the Nelson system; indeed,- he i;be|ieved -that'Jho: league i.would "welcome Mr.,-Massey: Tliat involves .the right of entry,' doesn't it? -.. i . • ."5. Professor-'Kirk: Yes, .but. not ; in schbol-hoursj'.and not-paid for by people who obiect' : 'to. : it. ;:He'added: that she,-.be-lieved-this .'system, cbuldi.be worked 'satisfactorily. m-the towns, and:if tho money now; bwhgspent tlie vclerical party; in ■ tho .campaign ■ were to ; the payment of niissicners in tlie country . districtaV'the sykeinj could -also be work--ed:there.:.v'V!-5--<-'-,:;:'- ■'- ' ' ; The-Hev-' Knowles Smith .said lie was ;a>s,ihcere jhe ■vyould S'lilfe' to r 'see; :tlie ;childrbij; of . this; country in- possession of - this groat and ! wonderful^-Book,..!^The...namoi Bible-in-Scliools'- Lqaguo^WftS, ; ho;wev er, „ i enlly .a -mi'snomer-.'V:;fle ; iria'do'bold. to - .that '•'if^e?Bnin6i]^!BtOT i spht the. ' refer,bMtirii : intbitw6S aiid; pht;.the'-assn«B:-I'<':£re-'ybu' ; '-in'^^^ schools?" and "Are you in favour df denominational right onentrj he would find-'th'at : 'ins:bitterest' 'opponents were • the' .• League. 1 Wli'at' . tliat ' '.;was' asking for ■ -'' was ' deriomihatiohal; ■ right of entry , this was provided for m the league's 'proposals, it would .favour I the lafge;denominatmns ; to '-^ of the ■ smaller ones.., ~lt- was. absurd i;to;sw,tliat!aii; denomi^atiorierightSj'' because';, - the '. sinaller ; religions bodies would;not- be able'tb act upon the, l ri'glits.',given,' 'not- hayihg the mGii or - th'e? jesources ;.at; .• tlieir'- command, ■/ and. the larger - denominations , would have a great' advantage.Ho - would, not object .to the Nelson'system ; vMr: Massey':' Do you wish to see tho Nelson■ System''coiilpulsory? • -. Mr Smith;' I would like to sec, the. Nblsori'.systemliaken out of.; the bontrol of, schooi : {'committees'aiid-' .'education boards/ and taken: control of by.thecen-, tral autlioritj-.-. v',\ . :;V Mr Massey: You.are getting into -a. difficulty '.'about'.this.* 1 Yon ywant-'the take-;power. : ;to '.prevent , -the; : Nblsbn':system . being- usocl.' .- 'You would leave' it all. to the Minister of Education—beeauss,-' there -ia ilo, one else?,.- Is that what you suggests • A. V01C0: As a member of. the. leaguo, J. object to : any committal on the Nelsoii system. I absolutely object. Mr. Massey: 'Well,' I am,sorry 1 haven't - had' a definite. statement:'.: ; ■ Mr.'-Smith, submitted that if these proposals r were.:'put; into effect' to _ satisfy-' the. Protest-ant ■conscience, he did not"see how the ' oould. refuse, to satisfy- the .-Catholic!': conscience by' granting;; State .aid ;tb Catholic schools.' The' only safo course for . the Government was to.leave matters: as, tlioy now were- He read from a catechism is- i sued by the Cliurch of England, in England; this question: "Is thero-any.mid-dle place between the Church (meaning.. of course; the. Anglican' Church) : and And| the answer -was: "None whatever." . . i Mr. Massoy; I ;don't think you should reflect on any other .Church P. V- :- .' ; .Mr. Smith:! am not reflecting on it, i Sirivbut .to.its;., representatives | -lioing into.tlie, State' schools; and reflect-I mg on me and my Orders. . . : A Headmaster's views. : | •; -Mr.v W./Foster. (headmaster of .the i ' PbttnelMam-. School); said2it ;was ( absurd ,tb L say that':tho. Bible or; selections from it-could be read in the schools as an ordinary: text-book.- • .No ..conscientious ■teacher could allow the .Bihle.to be .read (byhis ' pupils, : without; tijaehingf :Teligion". If. lie" did. allow it:to .bo.read m such ;a > ! perfnhctbry ; -'wayy:''.this 'would-, do griev-; ous - harm." Ho contended also that tlio.'coming of clergy into tho schools would seriously,djsprganise. schbol 'work'.The'statement' made -that our 'present secniar .-education vwas/Godless., -educa..tioni- '.deliberato 'miSrst'atemeht 'bf • fact':!!!. Moral tßaching'was :given notJaS a,!direct- lessoii.. : in ,'ivhich"'vform '- it, .yyoiildi.be ineffectivo, ißui a; conscientious 'teaclier: was. v .alwa!ys /'impartingmoral, training and truths -to-his pupils,- and biio of- Ins. greatest nlqasures was : .to watch ;the : ' development !:';bf ''( healthy/ elean-mindfid children. .As a proof that bur': childrciV, were: not ,beihg''brb,UEht : ;:UP ■in of. great 'moral truths, ho would ask .the Prime Minister whether, 'the/morality of/New .'Zcalaiid :did' liqt compare • favoui'ably with' that, of any other States in tlio -wnrld. He appealed to tlio P.rime.. Minister to pause before setting in. 'train'legjslatibii'; that was doomed.to wreck our nation,il sys--tom of nducatioii.'..'..V. ... ; labour Onposltlon. Mr: H;-Hunter said that his colleague (Mr. Rosser). and.himself represented the industrialjand political side of tho Labour movement. They had come from a conference, now sitting'iii Wellington; at''which -.-tli'e delegates • represented 43,500 workers, orgrinised on tlie iiidiisr; trial /side.f; .Theirplatform »pr6yided-'for tlio referendunij :but also for, tho maintenance of free,' secular, and compulsory 'education.';-.-.' Tlio- Prime.-Minister had stated' to recent .deputation that iii his opinion it would .bo unfair to minorities :tliat the'funds of unions should be,' used for political purposes. v Jlr; Hunter 'remarked thjt he -did not' inccept-this view in .regard to union funds, .but., it should ajiply,. with tell greater, force to:thes'siabject under, consideration that morning. ... . - '■ - Mr. A. Rosser .spoke in a-'similar-strain, and siid'.that the Labour , Coiiferthe! tion;/taßeii, ,ify/:;!Pr6feSsor' Hunter: when he addressed, them/'.- on behalf';! of. the National Schools Defence League. Mr. Rosser stated that in taking this stand :ho yielded- to/no "man in his respect and veneration for.; thej Bible, but ho held ' tliat un./matj'pj's -of religion: 110 majority 'had- a» right:jtp coorco a inuiontv. '.'I was boi'n'awebcl," -he contumdd, ''I have been lirorfght up a rebel, and "I filial! die:a,r;jliel." ~ ./-/. / ; Mr.-Massej'": I hope not; -' Mr. Rosser: There' may bo salvation, ■| 'byen! for me, at the vfileventh hoiir^;' - j.r'-,". -: . .J-"';" "

■ Mr. MasseyThere is joy over ..every sinner that repenteth. ; ' Mr.. Rosser: I hope you" will see it. (