NAVAL DEFENCE

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1925, 6 December 1913, Page 7

NAVAL DEFENCE

THE REASON FOR THE BILL, ?«T A LOCAL NAVY. The lion. 11. D. BELL moved Hip second reading of tiio Naval Del once Hill. He saul ha could not explain fully the reasons why it was deemed advisable Unit tlio Government of Nov.' Zealand should depart from the naval subsidy arrangement, and adopt a somewhat different arrangement. It must he clear that the Admiralty could not always ho quite frank with colonial Governments, and when the Admiralty (lid take Governments into their confidence, conditions of the strictest secrecy were imposed. iio was not sure that any of his colleagues knew all about what hud induced t'lo Admiralty to chanso their policy, but he did _ know that such of those, reasons as had been divulged to the Government had been S'iven in confidence, and could not bo divulged by any man. Ho did not wish to be understood as sayinr; that there had been any breach of faith on tile, part of tho iinglisii GovCrnnrent, hut. tho fact was thai no part or the 1000 agreement made with tho Admiralty by Sir Joseph Ward, to have a, squadron stationed on our coasts, had been carried out. Tho fault was not tlio fault of the New Zealand Government, who had been most to imvo the agreement carried out. They hod oven offered an increase in tho annual subsidy of £50,000 a year, but that had not been a sufficient inducement to tho Imperial Government, And the A'cw Zealand Gjveriiment, finding that they could not secure the observance of tho old agreement or arrangement,'had to face tlio position, and make another arrangement. Now Zealand was to put ships on this const, and to man theni' to protect these shores, but tho ships would be under tho ensign of St. George, and under tho command of His Majesty's officers. It would iiot be what was popularly known as a local nnvy, but a part merely of His Majesty's Navy, and in time, of war it would be at the disposal of the Admiralty, and not at the disposal oi New Zealand. For the present there would ho no extra expenditure, but later there would be increased expenditure, if Parliament p;avo the authority, to build ships to hold tho men whom it was now proposed io train.

Mr. Rlgg Supports the Dili,

The Hon. J. JMGC askw.l what provisions there were in the Bill to enable the Government. to construct ship- of war. lie had steadily opposed the contributkm to tho 'Imperial Navy oyer sincc it was inaugurated, never lmvmg been able to see why a young country, weak in tinance, slinuklcontribute to the resources of the wealthiest country in the world, i Also lie entirely disputed from tlie view that it was correct- policy for the Kmpire to maintain a liuge licet to protect tho'Mother Country. Ho beiiuved an enemy would bo more likely to attack at one of the outposts of the Empire. lu any event v.v conk! never look far much support from the Impcrial Navy, especially against, siioh a Tower as Japan, whicii had a poiveriul navy and whicii could strike very quicklv. ' lie therefore believed that the proposal of tlse Government to acquire a Bristol cruiser was -a -wiso one. Me could not hope to have n navy lor many years,' but with Australia we might be able ie command a fair ileot alter a number of years. For Hie present he was inclined to think that wo .should rely upon submarines, torpedo destroyers, and aeroplanes, and mines to protret our coasts. Hie Kicat object <jl ;iew Zealand should bo to make licrscll 1 '^ 11 - MILLS said he realised thai, tlic time had come when we must bejiin to collect a naval levee am ships in bo stationed on our coasts, but to be pln"cd under the Imperial control 111 Mil even I of war. He- supported the U Ti.o Hon. R. A. LOCGHNAN said he Ihouijht Sir Josq)l.l A V\V ! s " clKt "- 0 /i or ail linpiTKll CiHJlHrii ol JX'k'Ui'O U.ib 11-0 liest thill- had yflt been put forward. This beimt unattainable, he rccoginsea tints somethins less must bo aimed at, and the proposal in the Bill seemed to idie- to be a useful one. f'n" Men W. C. I'\ CAKNCHOSS said thespeech of the Leader of the Cmm eii had somewhat cliaiwo.i his views as to what New Zealand s naval poiiej ou-dit. io be. It appeared to him Ironi that speeeli that wo eouid no loiwjor remain contributors merely, ami tnnt wo must adopt some other system. Oibenvir-e he would be opposed is) emiiiiiltlin:; the country to a scheme which Would presently involve the country in a jireat deal of expense. Gonsratulations T-fOiii Sir W. Mall" JOS'iCG. Slit WILLIAM lIALL-.IONI'/S con-ttil.-st<•<! the (!<ivi ill!i!<-nI on having v,;„ Ihi.j forward sl<;|i- lie li' i met iinny men who were hinii luiva! authorsties' duiiua his fcUx in Euuland. and

his interviews with iliem had convinced him that New Zealand must take some such step as the Government now proposed to take. At ilio present time the only effective British ship in these seas was the Australia, which, by the way, was just as much an Imperial ship as the Psyche or the I'yramus. Tho tendency lor many years had boon to withdraw all the effective, ships of the British snip the North Sen, and now the Australian scheme was universally approved by naval men. It could be assumed that there was some reason for the iailuro of the Imperial authorities to carry out what was known as the 180!) agreement, and this being so it ; would have been improper for New Zealand to press for the carrying out of that agreement. In tho future South Africa and Canada would have navies just as Australia now had, and when that time camo these units, with tho India, units, would afford the Dominions in these southern seas ami in tho Pacific adequate protection. When tin's scheme developed more fully we would have a chain of defence which would make our Empire invulnerable. But we nuist do our share to make our defence system an effective whole. With regard to tho proposed Imperial Council of Defence he expressed tho opinio!! that not the youngest child living in this country would over sec such a scheme realised. He had very much pleasure in supporting tho Bill and he added that ho approved wholly of tho memorandum issued by tho Government on tho subject- of Naval Defence. ..

The-Hon. J. BAR]' said he could see nothing-to object to in the Hill; It was only preparatory to something to como in tho future, and when that came there might be room for-.differ-ences of opinion. Nothing Sinister The Hon. 11. ]). BELL, ..'m.-reply, said the approval of the Governmentscheme by Sir William Hall-.los-.os, who had had exceptional opportunities of getting an understanding of'the naval position, and who was under no necessity or even impulse to defend the Government's scheme, should cohvinco honourable members that there w.as,"hoW thing sinister in it, aud nothing adverse, to the interests of tho Kmpirc. The Bill was read a' second- time on the voices.

STRIKE OFFENCES. On the motion that the Police Offences Amendment Bill lie committed,- ■ The Hon. J. T. PAI'L said-lm disagreed will) iho proposals in tlio Hill defining strike offence:;, hut-lie was very strongly opposed to the methods and sets ol' strikers in the recent disturbance:;. Conduct such as that must lie put down. Be was.opposed to the deletion of the clause -permitting "peaceful picketing." Ho proposed to .move ill Committee for the addition of a clause to permit peaceful picketing, which was an exact cony of a clause in the English Act of ISKIB. The Hon. .J. I.UGG also opposed the Bill. Under it repression. would be possible, and injustice in the name of. tlio law would load to worse Mils than those with which the law sot . out to deal. The manner in which the law : was being vised to crush the strikers in the present industrial strife would lend to trouble in the future. There was too much law in this country, and too little justice. In Committee ho ttoukl move to increase the maximum tenn o? imprisonment, which _ could be imposed under the Hill in order to give the defendants tho right of trial by jury. There were some things in the, Bill of which he apnroved. He did not believe, for instance, thift, whether there was a striko or not, men should be assaulted or molested, but they should not bo provoked. Advising Caution. Tho Hon. J. BAKU said he was not opposed to the measure, but ho thought it would iio well to watch it closely. _ H was possible that in times of striko pickets might act in what they regarded as a peace!nl manner, but tnat police or magistrates might not so regard their I'omlnct. He w.is not sure that tho Bill provided fully for the picket whoso conduct was trulv peaceful. Unfortunately, strikes would continue, and employers were responsible for strikes. \lr. Duthie: Wiuit! jlr. llarr: Employers arc responsible for,those strikes. Mr. Duthie: Bad laws. Mr. Barr added that the class oi emplover who irritated workmen, and caused strikes was' fortunately in a minority in Now Zealand. The Hon. W. BiiEUAN' opposed the Bill. Tho Recant Riots. The Hon. J. 13. CALLAN said tho Bill was intended to ileal with exceptional circumstances, and undoubtedly there had been exceptional circumstances in Wellington recently. He iia-cl scon two disturbances—one on the wharf, and one at Whitcosnbe and Tmubs—and his opinion was that if the special constables*had not come in tho numbers they did there would have been bloodshed mid murder in Wellington. ("Hear, hear," and "Xo, no.") "I believe," ho said, "the Dominion is under a deep debt, oi' gratitude to the men that came from the country. J believe their coining hero prevented something near to revolution. (Hear, hear.i i have no hesitation in saying that." Mr. Bechiiii: Very nearly caused one. M r. Caiian : "Caused onel What nonsense that is- The disturbances took place before tho men came, and if the •men had not come into tho city to meet this outburst. God knows what would have happened." "Peaceful 15 a Euphemism. The Hon.' If. A. LOUGHJJAX ridiculed the idea that picketing over could III) ner.mil. What was picketing! l it ■was" the attempt by one person or several persons to induces another person to do something lie did not wish, to do. Picketing was always carried .out by ■lien in a state of some excitement,- and when persuasion did not sulUce men had rec-oursc to threats. Crimes Against Society. The ISoo. .1. DUTfIIE said ho was in agreement with what had been said hy Mr. Caslan.. llrally, as Mr. I',-jnl had said, a strike wis a social war, and honourable, gentlemen ought to consider very carelitlly what could he-justified in such circumstances. At 'very short notice in Wellington tho strikers had possession of iho wharves, preventing other people, even members'; of tlwir own union, from working" there. Clearly this was a condition nf war. The initial jf tlioiij were.

any,' could not bo considered by the authorities. It was the duty of the Covormuottl to. prated tho lives am property of citizens, anil to sw thai no such position as had recently py.isted in AVcl.lington could arise in khj coiriuuinitv. Tffoso Iwnowrablo gentle men who asked for protection for th, ? o men who had inflicted injury on tho trade of peace-loving citizens could surely not tirgo thai the community was not justified in stojjptnj: th«® from propagating 1-heir vicious do-c----iriiws? Society o;,n.M not lie kept together if working men were to ■» timidated as they bad been. These could 1)0 no two sides to the question that law and end*!- should bo niainta;n<'-<., aud men must be checked in pprradinii (hsiitdoftmnesupsetting f\ocioiM. lining could he iti'K«l thai would justify tmi delay in stopping Mio rccurronw of what had taken place recently in this City, Tilt; police should have lull powers to prevent it. Mr, Rigg; That- won't stop it. Air. Dnthio: I'rohahl.v not. J hat position of things has been fostered during the last 2D years. He did not think the fJill would ever be enforced m normal times. It was nsote to discuss the merits of strikes. These were for tho .Arbitration Court, but violence arising out of strikes must- bo put- down as crimes against society, li'jvv must be maintained, and strikers must loam this. Two "Paints of View." The Hon. V. M. LUltlC said that every man wlio loved his country must deplore the happenings of the last knv weeiis. and tho necessity for the introduction of the Bill. But who could sav that the Hill tvas not .necessary ? i'lio I<OH. W. JiAK.YSJiA\V regretted the introduction of the Hill What had led to it- doubtless was the introduction iiur> tin; labour siiovoiaent ill Now Zealand of Continental awl American anarchism, under this guise of Socialism, Though, of course it was not Sccmlism at all. lie was afraid, however, tho Government, we.ro going too far with this Hill. He was sorry tifo Government, had not held over the Dill unlil the. present trouble hud blown over. On "Panic Legislation." The Hon. 11. 1"). BKLL congratulated the Con noil en the attitude those members who wore known as Labour ni-em-to-s had ndnntcd in denim- will) tho ouestHMis in" tho Hill. He had «« npoUwv to offer tor bringing* in a Bill caliod panic legislation. Panic legislation meant no more than a measure to strengthen the hands of the Iwsecuti'vo at times of exceptional difficulty or danger. And was it not -absurd to call panic legislation that which had been the law oi England since IS-o, and ft-hic l was the law of Knjjbnd now? H»o rffeet of the English Act- pt liAto permitting "peaceful persuasion Im-d been lit let loose all tho forces of nrgnmsed obstruction and intinmiatron. .lirnt was tho position in Jiiis'l«nd now. Reference bad been made la tho recent prosecutions, hilt tho prosecutions had been only for violent assault, aud. absolutely disgraceful language, because this was all the law punished. In linglaiid the remmoti law was strolls enough to deal with other offences ess ■ motions. In. reply to tko.se who had 'aeked lor trial by jury he ventured to ray tlwt there could be only one reason for defendant# seeking to K« to a It could not be because their cause was just, but because by so doing they hop'ed to escape punishment. The Hi" was read a second tune on the voices.

IN COMMITTEE. Committee on the H-.li, A division was called for hy tlio La* hour members on the ciauso making '•watching or besetting" ai» offence. 'I ho clause was iV-tiii'tcii by 1- votes to '• 'IV Hon. J. T. Paul moved to odd the new sub-clause M v.li.il: ho had ■iivon notice referring to peaeotu! pickairr . which is in tin:- English Act. Ho urged tlurt peaceful picketing was no impossibility, for he had sowi it practisod. , . , • Tire Hon. Captain TNtckor ]iointe& out that tho Bill would not prevent any picketing tlwt vas triyy Tho amendment was deteavcd by V< The Hon. H. !'■ BELL moved_ to add a „W clnusc, fain- a penalty <5i . twc,vo months' imprisonment lor such assaults as kicking or stnlung ft man on tlm -{round, or otherwise disabled Irani defence, <ir kicking or striking ft man m certain dangMWis parts. The cl:uis« was .agreed to on tho U The'l-lon. J. ltlGO moved to add 4 WW clause to give all persons charged ,Midor tlm Bill the right of trial by '"'rile , clause met with strong oppose lion, and the amendment was deleaved jjv 12 votes to 5- , ' The Bill was reported with an amendment, and road a third time. OTHER BILLS. The Education Iteerv® Amendment. Hill was committed, but progress wan reported after tile shui't title had been Pi, n?Naval Defence Bill and tlic Distress and Heplevin Amendment Bill were put through Committee, and read a third tiiifc. v , ■U 0.18 a.m. the Cotincil -adjourned until ii.3o p.m. on Monday.