THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1917, 27 November 1913, Page 4

THE HOUSE.

In tho early hours of yesterday morn>'iig,_tho tliirjl reading, debate upon■ tho l.ogfslat'.iro Amendment, Bill, (repealing the Second Ballot) to'olc'on a decidedly new aspect. ■;During■ the ob>,fruction, delicto of last week Uovonliucnt members maintained an almost unbroken silence,. because if- they had talked they would have assisted their opponents on the other side of tho .House,.,who. were endeavouring tii block tho progress of the. Bill. JVith the end of the third rcac'liug debate,' in siglit, tho liecess'itv for 'maintaining this policy departed, 'and several (hivernment members opened out, in a stylo that showed how Hie.'necessity of maintaining 'silence had irked - tliem'. Metaphorically they sinoto their political opponents hip and thigh, and it required no very keen observation to set that they relished tho task immensely. The debate was rounded oft' by the; Hon. F. Al. Ji.--Fishei-in a,speech which'was at once a vindication of tho Government's electoral policy and an attack'.upon the Opposition, which seemed to jic as little, relished by the members of that party as it was appreciated bv members of the Reform'partv.' 'After TiiE'DojuxioN- went to" press yesterday morning tho-debate was continued- by Air. A\\ Nosworthy (Ashburton). ' ' '■ ~ ; The Ballot and. tfisi: Cag... Air. : AV. Nosworthy (Asliburton) said that lio would like to ask Sir .Joseph Ward ; whether ho had consulted the people' l before introducing the. Second Ballot,' Personally/ 'ho =liod= opposed it fmm ih inception. Tho fact was thai, Sir Joseph IVnnl llatl brought in the second'ballot'when his party was toi-tor-ii!« toMts l'alL-in,tha.Jii)iMM>f-4iols-teW'ii«-witff'Labotir support. It should not that when tho Second Ballot ;Bfli- eamo jbmiJtjoiitaiiiuLa. gag clause.'."'" '

Mr. Payne: It should havo been retained. Mr. Nosworthy said that Sir Joseph Ward tried by that system to gag tho press in this' country, and every individual in it between the time, of the first and second ballots. If there was anything that any member of this House—let alono tho Leader of the Opposition—might bo ashamed of it was having brought in that gag clause. Mr.' J. C. Thomson was heard liere to say something about "lies." Called to order, ho said that his remark had been: "Xeivspapers tell lies." Tho Speaker tyikl him that flio should not use any such' term in the House, and that he must interject less frequently. Mr. Nosworthy said that ho and other members had come into the House distinctly pledged to sccuro tho repeal of the Second-Ballot. The wilful waste of time by the Opposition would redound to their discredit for a very long time. The members of the Reform party had fought and struggled for the repeal of the Second Ballot, and had laboured for it day and night. - He believed that they, would triumph in the end. Tho Opposition had been severely crushed. Finally ho twitted Opposition members upon their dejected looks. Mr. 0. Witty (lliccarton) said that if Oppositionists looked as dejected and politically miserable as Mr. Nos- , worthy they ought to be buried. Mr. "Wilson: You are. -Mr. Witty presently'asked Government members whether they thought that all the political honesty was on their side of the House. A Government member (promptly): Yes. What tho Opposition Did.

Mr. J. H.. Bradntny ' \ (Auckland West): "I wish to deploro the amount of time that has been wastetP on this Bill. I quite aijroo that When honourable members on the othor side of tho Houso aro fighting for a principle they have. a perfect right to put tip a fight, but there should bo some limit. You have had principal and interest, compound interest, in this debate. We have" been told by honourable members on tho other sido that they have put up a crcditablo debate. Sir, I .have never heard such pifflo in my life. . . . If a man sat hero night after night listening to tho magnificent arguments from that sido of the House it was enough to send him to the lunatic asylum. I stand right out for tho old system of election. I make no excuse for voting for the abolition of tho Second Ballot. It was one of the views 1 had when I camo into this House, and I. believe it is shared by my fellow members on this sido of 'the House. 1 never could sco any reason for departing from tho original method of voting, fifsfpast the post. ' What havo members on tho other, side of the House to fear from it? If it is fair for us it is fair for them. Why should they have tho right to take tho votes .given for oho candidate and givo them to somebody else under a system of preferential "voting? Is there no such thing as a personal vote? Thero wero peoplo who voted for men who would not have gone' to tho poll to vote for anyone else. You havo another argument about minority rule. But when a man "comes, into this Houso ho should feel that he represents his constituency, no matter who voted for. him. That at any rate.is my political creed. . . . That should bo tho principle of every member of this House. If members would think half as much of their constituents as they do of their seats, they would not bother so much about preferential voting.

Tho "Eloquent Debate." "For six months wo havo been hero, and we have practically done nothing. Why? Because you realised that every timo wo brought a Bill down we were strengthening ourselves with the country and you try to block legislation. That ltas been the method adopted by tlio Opposition. They havo endeavoured to prevent tho passage, of measures that aro urgently needed by tho country. ... 1 trust that so long as I am in this House 1 shall never sco such another, exhibition as I have seen in tho last fow days on this Bill, and when you hear honourable members talking about the eloquent debate, aud remember that it took them four or fivo hours to discuss tho word 'may' and another four or fivo hours to discuss the word 'this,', surely it shows tho remarkable amount of intelligence. I wonder now whether I am honoured in being returned to his House. When 1 was returned I felt it a great honour indeed,' but when I came here and listened night and day to such piiflo as I have listened to in the last four days 1 wonder whether it is an honour to be associated with men who would so wasto tho timo of tho country. . . .

I should liko to say that 1 think tho l'rimo Minister 1 should carry all the Bills ho intended to carry, oven if we stay hero until June next. (Hear, hear.) I should have very little faith in my leader if ho was turned from his purposo heeauso of the obstruction of the last four months. And lam sure every member of this side of'-tho House will .be with him if ho decides to stay hero until next June." , MORE HOME-TRUTHS.

AIR. FISHER. ON SHII'WIIFCKFD POLITICIANS. The Hon. F. 31. 15. Fisher, in re~ ply, said ho did not propose to delay tho llonso al any length to reply to the speech delivered in such mellifluous tones by tho "Hard of Avon." "For 131 years," ho said, "members of that side of the. Houso held complete sway in this Parliament, and'tho only product in the way <>t electoral law of their '21 years of legislation was that electoral abortion known as the Second Ballot. Now, I believe the Second Ballot is condemned by ■ all reasonable and sensible people, and I believe, further than, that, it is tho most rotten and worm-eaten plunk that ever a shipwrecked politician hung to to save himself from'destruction. I am very glad to think that to-night the Mouse is going to decide, not quite finally, but nearly finally, that tho time has arrived when this measure should be repealed. Ho quoted from a speech by Sir Joseph Ward in-1909 to show that he was then utterly opposed to proportional representation. Sir J. AVard in that speech condemned tho proportional representation, scheme -absolutely, and he, (.Mr. Fisher) had placed the fact on record so that those who were interested in the subject might he able to see what the position ot the Leader of I ho Opposition was. Sir .1. Ward: 1 am not advocating that. Jt is not in my amendment. An Unholy Alliance. —Mr.- -Fisher said that he wanted to make, the position dear, and also to point out that Sir J. Ward was now .advocating a system that was in finitely worse than proportional representation.

Why, lie wont on tn ask, had this light been put up hy tlits Opposition on this .Kill? 1-Jis opinion was that the real truth hail not been told during tho whole of the debate. Tile fight 'had been put up because- there was a belief that the Mill was going to destroy a secret and unholy alliance that existed in the politics of this country. Sir J. Ward: There is no such alliance. 31 r. Fisher: There may be no bond or agreement, but there is a unity of interest between two minorities in this country. Sir J. Ward: That is quite contrary to fact. Mr. Fisher: There is a mutual desire between two minorities to bring aVjnt disaster and destruction to the party tll.lt is in power, at any price. tlovornment members: Hoar, hear. At any -price! The Spicier anrf the Webb. Mr. Fisher: Sir, may I bo allowed to paraphraso a well-known nursery rhyme ? Will, you walk into my parlour, Said Sir Joseph to tho Webb. No thank' you, said the insect. Your tido is on the ebb: —(Laughter.)

Mr. Fisher: Now, sir, I think that that little paraphraso of an old nursery rhyme about expresses the situation which .exists at- t-lio present, time. The Leader of the Opposition has told tho House that ho 'had never before seen the Standing Orders of this Honw administered in the way they have been during the debate. I asked the lion, gentleman this—and lie has had an opportunity of speaking once —has he ever, in the history of ""this country, ever in his own experience as a Minister of the Crown, and for many years as Frimo Minister, ha.s he ever known a Mill introduced by a Minister to be absolutely obstructed on the motion to introduce? Mr. Fisher went on to remark that he believed tho time was ripe for the. House to take into consideration the question of bringing its Standing Orders into line with those of the Oommnn-o-ealtli Parliament, under which no' discussion took place.until a Mill had been printed. It was perfectly true that members on that side of the House had taken advantago of the existing Standing Orders Sir J. AVard: You started it. From Time Immomorial. Mr. Fisher: it is all very well for tho lion, gentleman to say wo started it, but it has been done from time immemorial. Ho went on to speak of an occasion in 1903, when Sir Joseph Ward took strong exception to a discussion in tho House on a motion to introduce a Bill.

Sir J. Ward: Who was it introduced by!' Mr. Fisher: It was introduced by Mr. Wilford, a supporter of the right lion, gentleman, lie continued that it was unprecedented that a Minister should not havo leave to introduco a Bill in the House. . The Leader of tho Opposition, in tho present case, before ho had scon the Bill, took it upon himself to assume that,he knew what the Bill contained, and utilised the forms of tho House to prevent him (the Minister) from bringing down a Bill which effected a reform in the constitution of tho country. Then the Leader of tho Opposition turned round afterwards, and told the Government that they wore guilty of improper methods in moving the clause providing for the repeal of- the second ballot into the Legislature Amendment Bill. "Had you allowed us to take tho proper course," said tho Minister,- "this Bill would never have been affected at all. It was only because of tho unconstitutional position taken up by the Opposition:- that.Wo wero forced to take a course that had never been taken in tho House before. Tho responsibility rests entirely with tho party on the other side 'of tho House." Refusing Responsibility. Sir J. AYard: 1 don't accept tho responsibility. Mr. Fisher said that in 1908 Sir J. Ward introduced three Second Ballot Bills. They were printed and circulated, and no one questioned his right. His (Mr. Fisher's) Bill was to ropeal a known quantity to the Houso.

Sir J. Ward: I never played, any tricks with tho Houso at all. Mr. .Fisher: I am very sorry that I must politically disagree with tho lion, gentleman. Ho attempted a trick that I trust will never bo attempted by any future Leader of the Opposition. A most unfair ami unwarrantable suggestion bad been'made, ho continued, that the Second' Ballot Repeal Bill had been introduced for tho purpose of taking advantago of tho decease of a member of the House. Mr. Mac Donald: Not introduced, pushed. Mr. Fisher:-As a matter of fact the Second Ballot -Repeal Bill was introduced while the' member for Lyttelton was sitting in tho House, a fortnight before he died. Mr. M'Callum: Wo admit that. Strike Affinities.

Mr. Fisher:* I am glad you admit that. It ought not to bo suggested that we on this side of the House want to tako advantago of the unfortunate death of the member for Lyttelton. Ho was not going to refer at that time to tho methods adopted in Committeo by tho Opposition, but ho felt bound to offer one comment: ho believed that Hie Opposition during tho past week or two had been on strike. Ho believed that there had been an understanding between members on the opposite side- of tho House, and persons outside the House. It could bo said, and it might bo said, that while everything possiblo was being done outside tho liouso to embarrass the Government, so everything possiblo was being done insido tho House to embarrass the Government. Sir Joseph Ward: We will let. you talk strike m Ihe House after this, and let you hear about it. Mr. Fisher: Then, sir, I hope the honourable gentleman will have an opportunity of declaring for order or for disorder, for proper administration of the law, or for anarchy. When tho honourable gentleman makes that pronouncement I hope there will be no mistake as to the side upon which he stands. Sir Joseph Ward: I shall not ask tho honourable gentleman. 1 know what 1 am doing perfectly well. Mr. Fisher: 1 do not suggest that he does not know. Sir Joseph Ward: The Government does not know what it is doing. The Prime.Minister: Tho Government liiiow what they are doing.

Sir Joseph Ward: You are destroying this country, that is what you are, doing! Air. Fisher: It has been said that wo Jiad uo right to repeal the. Second Ballot because we had no direct mandate from the people. 1 would challenge any member of this House to say that during tho election of IJJOS any single one of them ever discussed, or answered, any question concerning the Second Ballot. It was never before the pcuple, ?.nd was never seriously discussed. Are we not justified in asking, where was your mandate for placing it on the Statute Book:' . . . AVe were anxious to get awav from the old system, and we Fried the Second Ballot. It has tinned out to be a legislative'abortion of the worst typo. .Mr. Al'Callnm: You supported it. Air. Fisher: I did, to my regret. I'arl of iiiv criticism of the action of the Opposition, be went on to remark, is based upon a. speech made in Couiniitlee by Air Wi'lv. That honourable gentleman said that the Hill was designed for the purpose of destroying the "lied Feds." Air. Witty: No, I asked why it was not brought down as a Bill to destroy tho "Ilcd Feds."

Mr. Fisher: 1 sat at the table, and wrote down the remarks the lion, gentleman made upon the point. Now ! want to ask him: "Did he light the Mill in order to save the 'Rod Feds.' ?" A Government member: That's home! Mr. Witty: Well, you were asleep, so you didn't know.

.Air. Fisher said that regarding the length of the discussion.and the length of tho session he wished to refer to a speech made by the Leader of the Oilposition earlier in the session. Sir .!. Ward, on that occasion, said: "1 have noticed during this session the remarkable silence of Ministers and members who support the Government. They appear to 1110 to be afraid to hear their own voices and are apparently afraid of their own shadows." "I accept the evidence of the right lion, gentleman," said Mr. Fisher, "to the effect that tho interminablo delay of this session is not due to tlie silent members who sit on this side, but to tho loquacious members who sit on tho other side. The length of the session, by his own confession, rests with him." Sir J. Ward: You control yours! When they open their mouths you jump upon them. Mr. Fisher said that' Mr. M'Callum had said that the Bill was introduced at midnight, thus suggesting that it was surreptitiously introduced. Surely tho lion, gentleman must realise, how manifestly unfair that was. The real Bill was introduced at a _ quarter to three in the afternoon and if the Government had boon' treated with anything like reasonable- consideration the real Bill could havo been dealt with, and no such suggestion could have been mado by tho member for Wairau. Other points wero dealt with by various members, amongst them tho member for Nelson. The Opposition "Acid-Drop." That lion, gentleman was l not present, and ho would not refer to his criticism, but he regarded Mr. Atmoro always as "the acid-drop" of tho Opposition. (Laughter.) He would refer at a inter stage to tho notes of Mr. Atmore's speech which ho had. Ho was bound to say that so far as his knowledge of Parliamentary history in various ]>ortions of the British Empire- went, he regarded the course, taken by tho Opposition on this occasion as the most extraordinary cvot placed upon record. The House had been sitting, up'to'tha present time, for 78 hours upon one Bill. A very great portion of that timo was a continuous sitting. Fivo and a half hours had been spent upon tho discussion of tho word "this." They had taken many hours in which to discuss tho least important words in the shorttitle of the Bill. While, ho could realise that tho Opposition were justified in offering tho most strenuous opposition to the measure, and fighting it to tho last ditch, so to speak, at tho same time ho was bound to frankly voice his opinion that the Opposition had exceeded tho liberties granted to them dn the Standing Orders. "Rights" of Minorities. He admitted that it would be a very dangerous thing to take away from tho Opposition the right of a minority to i'reo speech. "But," he. said, "I think t'horo arc times when oven minorities may exceed their limited rights. There aro times when it is improper for minorities to try to control majorities, and I think the Opposition upon this occasion has exceeded- its duty, lias lost its sense of respect for tho rights of the House in tailing up the extraordinary course, they havo atlopted during this debate. I can only say I hope this is tho Inst occasion upon which the Standing Orders of tho House have to be administered in the way they have been on this oc-ca-sion. Sir J. Ward;-You admit that? ... Mr. Fisher: I think thnfc ■ without any doubt thcro is not a member of the House who will not admit that 'tho Standing Orders havo been use.! to the ujmost 111 connection with the senseless obstruction, tho tedious' repetition, the utter lack of responsibility of members of that side of the House during this debate. If I am ever in Opposition again, all I can hope is that .if I havo tho misfortune to be a member of'an Opposition that has so little ten so of tho liberties given to it by the rules of tho House, thero will be. two such gentlemen in tho Chair in tho House and in 'Committee as the gentlemen now occupying those positions. Sir J. Ward: You obstructed one item for 30 liours, and you know it. Mr. Fisher was able to show that he Had not- boon in tho House, but away in Auckland, 'when the obstruction to which Sir Joseph Ward referred to took place.. In conclusion ho said: "1 supposo I ought to convey my thanks to honourable members opposite for the assistance they havo given 1110 in bringing the Bill to a successful termination' iu the House." Sir Joseph Ward, in a personal explanation, denied that there- was any alliance between the Opposition and Mr. Wobb or the Federation of Labour. He also said ho would take a suitable opportunity of referring to the strike in a constitutional way. Mr. Witty, in personal explanation, denied that ho had ever said tho Bill should bo- called a Bill to destrov tho Red Feds. Mr. Fisher said he accepted tho explanation, but it was possible under the. circumstances that tho honourable gentleman said it in his sleep. Tho Bill ,was read a third timo by 33 votes to 19. The Houso rose at 3.30 a.m.