BREAKING THE BLOCKADE.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1915, 25 November 1913, Page 4

BREAKING THE BLOCKADE.

CHAIRMAN TAKES DECIDED ACTON.

OBSTRUCTION BANNED.

REPEAL OF THE SECOND BALLOT.

LYTTELTON BY-ELECTION.

PRELIMINARY MOTION DISCUSSED.

riv:...,--..: •• ■. : t-Wh'en ,ihe House- of Representatives mat" at" 2.30 p.m. yesterday there wore some rapid developments, in connection with tho obstruction offered by tho Opposition to tho pa-ssago of tho Legislature Amondmont Bill, • and as tho outconio tho Opposition receded to a considerable .extent from tlie position which they took up in commencing tho obstruction. Tho House reassembled in Committee, the Chairman (Mr. A. S. Malcolm) resuming the. Chair, which he had-vacated on Saturday night in acoordanco with tho rule which forbids tho business of Parliament proceeding after midnight on that day. Instead of calling on the business which was before the. Committed when .'it rose,. Sir. Malcolm made ..tho following; statement:— "The Committeo was occupied almost continuously during tho whole of last .week with tho Legislature Amendment Bill; ■ Although tho debate was tho 'longest on record no progress was mado. Thero havo been occasions in Parliamentary history wlioro tho Chairman, in ordor to deliver the Committeo from a, deadlock, has disregarded tho Standing Orders and insistod ou the business of -:t;ho country being proceeded with. This is tho commentary, of. Mr. O'Rorko, tho ,then Speaker, on .one such case as recorded in the.Journals: — ->'\'JBoforo I:'leave tho.Chair it is but I should .niako "some comment upon, tlio '.proceedings of tlio last 'fortyeight' hours'.'".:'l'have heard tho opinions delivered .by: the. Chairman in every wqrd;.ofj;\yhich ;I fully. • concur.- The Houso has.'f-now earned, •for itself tho UunpafaT!eled.;p6siti6rt- of -having- sat uii- . iht&Mup.tedJ}>; -' ifof" :;! f ofty?eight .'hours without-touching upon tho Bill that was committed to its charge. Times, will erise. .when tho House must show itself 'to b'o master within its :own house. It is true-that-it is difficult'for the Government, and. honourablo members' to express thq authority o| the. House on such occasions, but there is apersonifiof the • powers ' of _ House within its walls,- arid'that personification in Committeo -,ig th,o:Chairman of Committees and" in" the House tho Speaker. Honourable-, members must not that. Standing Orders were framed for'ftig-purpose of tying tho hands of. the House, provent it from dealing;with ,the matters that the public has sent, us lioro for. I feel ashamed •that the" people's name should bo prosti&Hted. by .saying that such obstruction of business as we have witnessed is an exliib { tipn*!' pn fboh a Jfof tlio. people's liberties.—Thoro are-far other-services tlio '~ j&op'lo~>i require- at-- - our Lands—namely)-wo should givo duo and mature consideration to .the matters to-us,- and- not so abuse tho forriii of the Houso as in a':great,mea-tb;para"lyse~its.-pewors," demoralise 'and bring, it\into 'contempt. -I mention in- ordor tlisrti-jthoro-.'ShaH' be <jio .mistake that thbWis' a power.to.'rolea~sb~this Houso if" it should bo.'attempt- €? to o"C about. • In tho exerciso .fir that' power, it will .be' found that I, tor one, will not 'flinch from tho duty entrusted "to iiio'."''

Mj>;-Malcolin■ continued:—"We nil know tbafr'-thp majority must rule, and that.:tho:jiifnorit-y-musfc- sooner or later submit to superior .forco.., lam not prepared just-at this 1 stage to follow wi^:P[e c edent -quoted, in which the '.Standing • Orders were ignored, hut -I shall from now on use to tho utmost limit ;the powers tho Standing Orders give—and. they aro very wide powers— to bring this deadlock to an end. I trust this intimation will'be received in tho samo friendly spirit, in which it is made, -and that members will support mo in my .effort..to" Maintain. tho reputation and efficiency of Parliament."

POSITION ACCEPTED. OPPOSITION LEADER STATES HIS '.case. . Sir J. Ward (Leader of tho Opposition), mado a statement when tho Chairman sat down. ■ "In connection, with the very important statement that you havo mado just now," ho said, "I presume, Sir, that you will allow me to make certain inquiries in connection with it. I am not, of course, suggesting a want of recognition on this sido of tho Ilouso to. your decision in any matter. It has boon observed, Mr -Malcolm, probably by most Parliamentarians, that tho present position lias been anticipated by those on this, ■sido of the House, and.l want to justtake this opportunity of saying that whilo I recognise the force of tho rulings you havo quoted, that I think, Sir, you will agreo with mo that tho position then, as compared with the position now, in somo respects is a very materially different ono. In 1831 tliero was no timo limit in Parliament to the speeches of lion, membors, either in tho House or in Committee. In 1881 the Standing Orders mado no provision for any frosh , business . to' bo done after a. motion to report progress. Tliero -pas no - Standing Ordor that prevonted the repetition of theso motions in sequenco. Tho deaJlock of 1881 was duo to a series of nwtio is to report progress, and that tho Chairman leavo tho Chair, and in. the tho-i position tho ccurso taken by. the then Chairman of Committees (Mr. Seymour) and-the then Speaker (Sir Maurico O'Rofke);-'though an. ' extremo one, was reasonablo, looking at it in tho-light of the history'of Parliament, and tho position that existed-at that time. Tiio caso was a very different ono from tho eirciiinstancos in which wo are placod at tho momout." Ho went on to point out that tho Standing Orders had been roviscd since 1881. Now a second motion to report progress could not be moy'ed until fresh business had 'been takon. Ho thought Mr. Malcolm would allow him to say, and would confirm it, that during tho long discussion that had taken place on the present occasion ovorv member of tho Opposition Biclo of tho Houso liad conformed strictly to. tho Standing Orders of- tho House whenever called upon by tho Chairman of Committees. He presumed tliat t'lio Chairman had given full consideration to the Standing Orders of the House,.and wished to call attention ;tp;tli,c fact that theso Standilg Orders - mado provision for a deadlock. Ho wished to know whether there was to bo a want of recognition by the Chairman of the Standill" Ordors—whotlior' something difforent to"! tho Standing Orders was to bo enforced. , Provious Question. Understanding Order 107 it was provided'distinctly that a question might be ■superseded among othor things by the ino'tiba.' -" -'-'Thatr tho • -question bcr potic

put," and by such motion being prot posed and carried. Mr. Masssy: Bo not now put. Sir J. Ward corrected hi 3 statement of what was provided in tho Standing Orders. It was quite clear, ho said, that in tfho Houbo there was provision to put an end to a deadlock, because if suc'li a motion was carried then tlio question, would not be put, and vico versa. This Standing Order had. no doubt been framed deliberately to meet a caso of -long discussion. Mr. Mass&y: That has nothing to do with Committee. Sir J. Ward: I am ooming to Committee ill a moment. There was Standing Order 205, that specially dealt with Committee. It must bo clear to every member ; of the House that when tho Standing Orders established a rule or law of a definite character, then it must bo recognised by every experienced Parliamentarian that, tho effect of tlio converse not being stated must moan that -tho Standing Orders were distinctly framed with tho object of not having in Committee a system similar to that which was the rule in tho Houso. Standing Order 205 said that no motion "That tho question bo not now' put" could ho made in Committee. Clearly the Standing Orders as they were to-day were originally framed to niako this provision to preserve to members that freedom of speech which they now enjoyed in Committee. For this reason it was not possiblo under our Standing Orders to fall back on Standing Order 24 of tho House of Commons procedure. That Standing Order provided for the guillotine being put. into operation, for it gave tho Speaker [lower to terminate a debate. In England there was no such Standing Order as that he had cited referring to procedure in Committee.

Concerning The Delay. He wished to make it clear that at 9 o'clock on Friday evening an offer was made to the Government to adjourn at midnight until 2.30 p.m. oil Monday, and as a condition attached to that proposal it was .agreed that tho short title of tho Bill would be passed. This offer was not accepted, but he afterwards made the same offer to the Prime Minister at 8 o'clock on Saturday evening. He would point out, therefore, that the delay was increased from midnight on Friday until midnight on Saturday through no fault of any member of tho Opposition side of the House. He wished to say for the members sitting round him thaifr they nvero anxious'to avoid conflict with the Chair, and he wished to a3k a question before the Opposition took the course on which they had decided before the House met at 7.30 p.m. on Saturday. AVhat he asked was a statement from the Chairman, as the responsible officer presiding over the Committee," as to whether ne proposed to set aside the Standing Orders, whether he proposed to take tho power upon himself of stopping members from proceeding with discussion on any clause of tho Bill, or on any amendment that might be moved, and whether the Committee had to -understand that Standing Orders 107 and 205 wero to be set asido. Ho asked this question to avoid possible conflict with tho Chair: After the Chairman had given his reply, he (Sir Joseph Ward) would tell tno Committee tho courso upon which they had decided.

Chairman's Wldo Powers. Mr. Malcolm thanked the honourable gentleman for his courtesy, and said that he appreciated his desire that there should. be no conflict between mombors and himself. In reply to the honourable gentleman's question he repeated that section of his statement to tho elfect that ho was not prepared at this sf&go' to follow tho precedent made by Sir Maurice O'Rorko, but that ho would use all the powers allowed to him under tile Standing Orders, to bring tho deadlock to an end. This meant that members would retain undiminished all their privileges. Members would recognise that ho had. been in the habit of allowing a very wide latitude. Ho bad been anxious not to curtail unduly thoir rights of free speech, but unquestionably the Standing Orders gave the Chairman the right to limit discussion without infringing the Standing Orders. As to the question of whether ho would allow inemberß to speak four times on a motion, or whether he would prevent them moving amendments, ho would give members all the privileges to which they were entitled under tho Standing Orders,-but he would use to the utmost the powers given to him by tho Standing Orders of limiting discussion, and members must recognise that these powers wero very wide. He trusted that members would see their way to assist him, without in any way losing their own dignity, or curtailing their own rights. He would remain in tho Chair personally, if that woro physically possible, so long as tho House remained in Committee on this Bill. He hoped, therefore, that tho sitting would como to an ond that day. Ho trusted that his attitude was understood.

Two Glauses Passed. Sir Joseph.Ward said ho was obliged to Mr. Malcolm for the explanation ho had given. Members wore bound to obey the rulings of tho Chair, unless they wero to take tho course of refusing to obey the ruling, and to pay the penalties for so doing. Tho decision of tho Opposition party had been to allow tho' short title to go through without further discussion. They intended to do this now. They intended also to lot the second clause go through without discussion. Then ho suggested that the Minister should submit his now clause, upon which thov proposed to take discussion, an ordinary secondreading discussion. So far as thoir futuro course was concerned, , it would bo necessarily guided by circumstances as they aroso.

PRIME MINISTER GRATIFIED. / PREVENTING A DEADLOCK. Tho Prima Minister said that before Chairman proceeded with tho business! oil tho Order Paper, ho would just like to say that ho had no comment to offor upon tho statement mado by the Chairman. 110 added that ho was only mado awaro that tho statement was to be delivered about two mimitos before tho Chairman took tho chair at 2.30 p.m. Ho was yery glad to notice tho spirit in which the statement/had been accepted by tho Leader of tho Opposition, and presumably by those members who sat around him and supported him. Ho wanted' .to say a word or two' about

the arguments of tlio Lender of the Opposition. Sir J. Ward had argued that provision for tlio prevention of a dc-adlocic was mado by Standing Orders 10/ and 200. These Standing Orders referred to tlio "previous question," and it was not possible to niovo tlio 'previous question" in Committee. Consequently Sir J. Ward's argument had ]u) -relevance to tlio present position unless tho honourable gentleman was prepared to havo the question put in tho House either without dobat-o or without unnecessary debate. If the Leader of tho Opposition suggested that tho question should be takou in tho Houso, no objection would be offered 1 to that course. Mr. Russell: 200 deals directly -with tlio point. Mr. Massoy: 205 also deals with tho previous question: "No motion that the question bo now put can bo mado in Committee." Therefore, as I havo said, tho honourable* gentleman's argument has no relevancy. He went oil to remark that Sir J. Ward had said that thcro was no parallol botween what had takeu placo on tho present occasion and what took placo on tlio historic occasion in 1881. From this view he dissented-. Tho question boforo tho Houso in 1881 was representation, and so it was to-day. Ho might say that ho had read with a great deal of caro and interest all tho speeches, mado in the House on the Representation Bill in 1881. Ho had also read with great interest the speeches then mado by Sir Maurice O'Rorko and' Mr. Seymour (Chairman of Committees). Ono of them (Mr. Seymour, ho thought) stated that tho obstruction had gono on for 48 hours, and that it was therefore time and tho duty of tho Chairman of Com. mittees to toko action. On the present occasion obstruction had- lasted for a great deal more than 48 hours. Mr. Ngjat-a: Fifty and a half. Tho Primo Minister: Ah, yes, but tho honourablo gentleman does not include in the fifty and a half hours tho time wasted on tho motion to introduce tho Second Ballot Bill. Tho two debates should be taken together. Much moro serious obstruction nad taken placo on this Bill than, took placo in 1881. Ho had also read tho remarks made by MrSpeaker Brand in tho Imperial Parliament when a deadlock arose in 1881, and Mr. Speaker Brand's diary. Sir J. Ward: Wo know all about that. Minority and Majority.

Tlio Primo Minister: I havo 110 doubt about that. Both Speakers, ho continued, took tho view that tho Standing Orders wero intended for tho protection of minorities to a certain extent, but that they were never framed to enable a minority to prevent tho will of tlio majority being given effect to. This, ho was sorry to say, was what appeared to ho intended by quite a number of honourable gentlemen in this Houso. ' Ho was not going to express any opinion on the statement mado by tho Chairman of Committees, but he had not the very slightest doubt that both tho Chairman of Committees and tho Speaker (Mr. I.ang) would do what they believed to bo their duty with regard to tho offor mado by tho Opposition 011 Friday night and Saturday morning that if tho Houso wero adjourned until 2.80 p.m. on Monday tho short titlo would be allowod to pass. In what better position would tho Government havo been if tho short titlo had been agreed top Suroly the short titlo of any Bill should bo agreed to, not iu several days, but in several minutes.

Sir Joseph Ward: The short titlo is not yet passed. Mr. Russell: A liberal offer. Tho I'rimo Minister: It may havo been a Liberal offer in ono sense of tho word, but it was not such an offer as members on this sido of tho Houso would accept. It was not such an offer as I would accept in any' case. Mr. Russell: What liavo you gained ? Tho Prime Minister: I don't say wo havo gained anything, but I would ask the honourable gentleman and his colleagues what they havo gained. Ho added that ho offered at tho time to adjourn if the short title and second clause were passed. Tho offer was reasonable as the latter was not a contentious clause. However, that was a minor point. He was glad to notice tho spirit in which tho right honourable gentleman had accepted tho statement of tho Chairman, and ho sincerely hoped the gentlemen who sat around tho lieader of tha Opposition, and had assisted him in connection with this matter, would act in tho same manner as he (Sir Joseph Ward) had indicated that lie intended to act. The Good Sense of Members. Mr. Malcolm said that as Chairman ho also wished to thank tho Leader of the Opposition for tho spirit in which his statement had been accepted. When the Second Ballot proposals camo before tho Houso ho expected to bo as much assisted by tho good sense of mombers of the Houso as by his own statement in his efforts to restrict tho discussion within a reasonable time and in a relevant manner. He had taken this courso with a feeling of very deep l-osponsibility, and from 110 wish whatever to act in an arbitrary manner.

RETURN TO WORK. BILL PASSED AND REPEAL CLAUSE TABLED. Consideration of the Legislature Amendment Bill in Committee was resumed at 3.2 p.m. The short title and second clause were passed without discussion, and in tho space of about half a minute. This was tho whole of tho original Bill. The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher then moved to insert the following new clauso:— Tho Second Ballot Act, 1908, is herebyl repealed. Tho Legislature Amendment Act, 1910, and tlio Legislature Amendment Act, 1911, shall hereafter bo read and construed as if all references therein to a second ballot were omitted. Tho Hon. F. M. B. Fisher, when ho was asked to explain tho new clauso, said: "Tho explanation of "it is that it repeals tho Second Ballot;" Mr. Ngnta: What about preferential voting?

No Substitute. Sir J. Ward complained that tho Minister in chargo had given 110 explanation of the Government's abandonment of its announced intention of providing a substitute for tho Second Ballot. Tho Minister in charge of tho Bill (Mr. lTishor) had slated in 1911 that he favoured tl)0 repeal of the ,Second Ballot Act and tho adoption of a system of proportional representation. Mi". Fisher also said 011 that occasion that ho did not want to go hack to tho old system. In tho samo year Mr. Massey had declared for a system of preferential voting. In tho Budget of 1912 tho Government had said: "The Government is fully sensiblo of tho great necessity for electoral reform, and in duo course a measure will bo submitted for tho consideration of members by which the system of second ballot will be repealed and another method of election established." Sir J. Ward went on to contend that in bringing down a proposal to repeal tho Second Ballot without providing a substitute the Government was deceiving tho wholo of tho people from end to end of this conntry. Thero had been a breach of faith with tho wholo of tho peoplo of this country. (Government denials.) Hon. members sitting beside tho Government were deceiving their constituents. (More dissent.) Had any 0110 of them dissented from tho statements made by present Ministers when thoy said that they favoured another system in placo of tile Second Ballot? Mr. J. Bollard: Hero is 0110. Another member: Hero is another. Sir J. "Ward said that if tho Bill went through tho Houso—and it was not through yet—ho expressed tho opinion that tlioro woro thousands of moderate peoplo in the country; .who jy.Qiq not,

' strongly wedded to cither side, who would regard tho action taken as an infliction to bo imposed upon them by a minority vote. No Breach of Faith. Tho Primo Minister said that ho denied absolutely that the proposal .for tho repeal of tho Second Ballot represented a breach of faith on the part of members of the Houso with their constituents. Substitute or no substitute, if thero was 0110 question with regard to which tho people of this country, and candidates at last election, woro fairly unanimous, it was tho repeal 01" tho Second Ballot.. He did not know of a single electorate in which tho point was raised in which the candidate did not pledge himself to tho repeal of tho Second Ballot, with tho possible exception of tho electorate represented by tho Leader of the Opposition. Ho challenged lion, members on tho other sido of tiie Houso to say that they had supported the Second Ballot Act as it now existed. Mr. EU : Well, I did I Tho Primo Weft, tho lion, gentleman, as usual, is the exception that proves tho rule. The solitary response to his challenge, ho added, had come from tho lion, member for Cliristfjiurch South. Even tho right lion. tho Leader of tho Opposition did not take it upon himself to say that he defended the Second Ballot Act beforo his constituents.

An Object of Suspicion. Tho people of this country had always been suspicious with regard to the operation of the Second Ballot- Act, oven from tho first day of its passing into law, A very large majority, oi' them knew that it- was an antiquated Act which had been, tried and found wanting in other countries, and was obsolete thero. It was not an Act at all suitable to the requirements of a country/liko this. Tho people know, after the experience of ono clcction, that it was a costly Act. Ho was notprepared to say how much the operation of tho Second Ballot Act had cost this country, but it had cost a very large sum. Another tiling was that between tlio first and second ballots business _ was practically suspended in tho districts concerned and iu electorates where a . second ballot took place little else was talked about during the week. Tlio Second Ballot had brought in a wretched and humiliating system of bargaining. Thero was not a member in tho Houso, and very few pooplo in the country, who took an interest in electoral matters who did not- blow that tho introduction of the Second Ballot had had a demoralising effect in tho electorates where it had been brought into operation. Members on tho other side, though they wero opposing tho Government's proposal, admitted ill their inmost hearts tlio truth of what 110 had said. He had opposed the Second Ballot at its introduction and had nover changed his opinion. Tlio Actshould have been repealed years ago. When ail opportunity was afforded of repealing it, what reception was accorded tho proposal?

Useless to Everybody. Iho result of the second ballot had boon that up till the present it had given no advantaga to cither side. Ono sido had gainod as many members by it as tho other side, so that even.from a party standpoint there was no object in keeping tho Act on tho Statute "Book, lhrough all tho years of tlio late Mr. Scddon s leadership ho had scorcd his -huge victories without tho aid of the sccond ballot, but immediately the sec- 1 ond ballot camo into operation the result was disaster to tho so-called Liberal party. He would have thought tho sorcalled Liberal party would hiivo done their best .to. get tlio wretched thing off tho Statute,, Hook. Ho could not understand the object of tho resistance to,tho present Bill, oven from a party point of view. Tho cxcuse they offered was that no substitute was boing provided for tlio second ballot. Ho admitted that in this session the Gov» ornmcnt did not propose to bring down a substitute. But tho Government pledged themselves to tho House, had already done so this session, to lay an Electoral Bill' before Parliament next session, and then, if tlio Houso felt so inclined, tho House could huvo the opportunity of providing a substitute for tho second ballot. If a majority of members wore in favour of a substitute, tlio substitute cnnld bo put into the Bill. Ho did not propose to say more than this at the present moment, but he thought this should satisfy honourable members opposite. J.f it did not satisfy them, it would.at least, he believed, satisfy tho people of this country. Ho hoped tho debate would bfl ended without unduo delay, and that sin* effort would bo made to bring the session to fi conclusion.

Mr. Russell Makes Charges. ~ r -. W- Russell (Avon) said that m last year's Budget t-lio Govrnmont absolutely pledged themselves to tho repeal of tho Second Ballot and the prodding of & substitute. Th© Governmout had also promised this year to introduco an Electoral Reform Bill". A member: So they havo in tlio Uppor Houso.

Mr Russell: That k not an Electoral liill. Ho said that tlio Government liad been induced to changa its mind as the result of the Grey election, aiui that it was also hurrying on tlio rejieal of tho Second Ballot without a substitute because tho Lyttclton by-cicction • was Cuming on. In regard to tlio Prinw Minister's remarks regarding tlio "wretched bargains" arising out of tlio Second Ballotj Mr. Russell said that tho mcmbors m tho Houso te-dav who wero supporting the Red Federation would' not havo boon there but for the bargains nindo by tho Massey party Their chickens had come homo to roost! In referring to the 1881 incident, Mr! Russell said that a Conservative Government was then in power, and that when the Chairman of Committees (Mr. Seymour), who stopped the proceedings 011 that occasion, went before tho electors again he was "wiped out of politics." -Mr. Russell concluded bv a reference to tlio property qualification which,/ho said, was desired bv the member for Pa tea (Mr. Pcarcc) and others

Judging by Results. Sir. G. V. Pcnrce (Pntoa) protested against Mr. Russell's stofoment-. He rcail an analysis of tlm result of tho Second Ballots in 1011, showing that tho Liberal and Reform gains through tho Second Ballot woro ovc-n, and that the net result was that tho Labour party had gained three seats that they otherwiso would not havo gninpd, two (Grey Lynn and Otaki) from tho Opposition, and olio (Wellington, South) from tho Reform party. Tho details quoted by Mr. Pcarce wero as follow 'l'hero wero 30 Second Ballots in 1911., Ten Reformers won in tho first and second ballots, and as many Liberals did likowiso, including Mr. Clark, of Chalmers. Olio Labour member (Mr. Veitch) won in tho first and second ballots. Two Reform party members (Messrs. Harris and Sykes-fand one Independent who supports tho Government (Mr. Coates). won. in tho soeond ballot after coming second in tho first ballot. Three Oppositionists (Messrs. M'Oalluni, Buddo, and Davey) won in tho second ballot after the Government supporters bad topped tile poll in the first ballot. (.Mr. Davcy interjected that his runner-up was an Independent Liberal.) Two Labour members (Messrs. Payne and Robertson) won where Oppositionists had topped tho first poll. One Labour member (Mr. Hindmarsb) won his seat after a Reform candidate had topped tho first ballot. Mr. G. Witty (Riecarton) said that the Governmont bad niado bargains at tho last general elections in Grey Lynn, Wangamti, and Otaki, but when a "bargain was niado by tho Liberal in tho ease of Grey thero was nt one« a howl on 4 a. crx % thg. Bengal ,<?.s tha.

Second Ballot at all cost. Ho also asserted that under tho old system when there was only one "Tory" candidate thero wero often bogus Liberal candidates, some of whoso expenses wero paid. Mr. Ilanan (Invercargill) characterised the action of tho Government as very extraordinary. Tho Government must think that its only elinnco of being returned to power was by splitting votes. Mora Talk of "Substitute." Mr. H. G. Eil (Christchurch South) contended tiiat it was tho duty of members on botli sides of the- Houso to seo that thero was an electoral system which'would provide for a majority of tho pooplo sending them to Parliament. The House, n<; declared, was demoralised. Tho present position was that the interests of tho people were nothing and party interests wero everything. Personally ho favoured a system under which the elections would bo settled 011 ono day, but he preferred the Sec* olid Ballot to tho'possibility of minority representation, Mr. R. M'Galium (Wairau) said that he was ono of the seventv-fivo per cent, of members returned pledged to repeal tho Second Ballot. Ho was not pledged, however, to repeal tho Second Ballot* without providing a substitute. Mr. J. Robertson said ho felt t-lio object tho Government had in view was to prevent tho coming into existence of the Labour Party. Ho regarded ' tho failure of tho Government to provide a substitute for the- Second Ballot as a gross broach of faith. Ho had given no pledge to vote for the repeal of tho Second Ballot, but he had given a pledge to vote for proportional representation.

Mr. G. Forbes protested against tho interruption of tho clause. It was a piece of political strategy having special refcrcnc-o to the Lyttelton election. The Hon. -W. P. Massoy said that tlio proposal to repeal the Second Ballot was introduced at least a fortnight beforo tho vacancy at Lyttelton. was created. Mr. Forbes said ho was opposed to tlio Second Ballot, but ho did not believe in a reversion to the old system. He urged tho Government to keep thoir pledge and introduce instead of the Second Ballot, one of tho up-to-date systems in operation in other countries. Mr. W. B. S. Mac Donald said ho believed that no two parties in this or niiy other country could represent all the peopio. He declared that the Government in introducing this proposal wero subordinating the interests of the country to tho interests of thoir party. Personally, he could seo 110 reason why a system of preferential voting should not be adopted, and if tho Primo Minister would agree to niako such a system the law i-f tho land, every member of tho House would agree to tho repeal of tho Scfiiind Ballot. Dr. Rangihiroa objected to the inclusion of the clause in tho Bill, and ono of his reasons was the manner .in which the clause was brought down. The question was of such importance' as to deserve different treatment. Mr. T. M, Wilford said tho object of the Bill was to keep tho Government in office. It was an ofl'ort to use tho majority in Parliament to allow a minority of tho electors to win tho day at next election. 'The Hon. A. T. Ngata said that tho Maori representatives had so strenuously opposed tho Bill because they could seo "tho game" as clearly bb any of tho pakelia members of the House. Tho tactics of the Government in tho introduction of this proposal could be characterised only as a piece of political "pointing." The, reason for tlis Maori members' action was not that they desired to delay tho passage of tho Nativo Land Bill.

Mr. G, W. Ilussell said ha had given notice of certain amendments to tho Bill. These amendments had been drafted while he had been Minister of Internal Affairs, and had tho Government of which 110 was a member remained in offica they would have been introduced in tho ordinary way as a substitute for the Second Ballot. If the Government would now agree to accept those amendments, which would mean the introduction of the singlo transferable vote system, tho present discussion couid bo ended in ton minutes.

Enough TalkMr. Malcolm (after Mr. A. E. Glovor had been speaking): I may say that I think I liavo allowed a fair amount of time for the disc-ussion of this clau-se, and I notice members aro repeating the arguments of other members, I proposo therefore to put tlio clause.