PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1913, 22 November 1913, Page 8

PARLIAMENT.

FARCICAL PROCEEDINGS. OPPOSITION OBSTRUCTION' TACTICS, STUMBLING EFFORTS. FRIVOLOUS AMENDMENTS RULED " OUT. Tho Legislative Council sat at 2.30 p.m. Tho Hon. Captain TUCKER moved, •"That tho report of tho Native 'Affairs Committee upon tlio petition of Otone Paora aud another, brought up on October. 30, bo agreed to." Tho Hon. H. D. BELL moved as an amendment that tho report be referred back to tlio committee for further consideration as .to tho proper procedure to bo followed in promoting an inquiry in connection with tlio subject matter of" tho petition. Tho amondment was agreed to.

BANK OF NEW ZEALAND BILL. , PUT THROUGH FINAL STAGES. Tho Bank of Now Zealand Bill (tho Hon. H. D. Bell) was committed. • The Hon. J. Rigg moved an amend- : ment to tlio clauso relating to tho issue of now capital in tho direction of limiting tho amount to £1,000,000, instead of £3,000,000, as proposed ill the Bill. He pointed out that if the- bank got an ad--di'tional million aud called up tho halfj million remaining on the present ordinary Shares, it would then have a capital of £3,500,000. Ho believed that would •bo amplo—the Bank of France only had a capital of £8,000,000! , . The Hon. H. D. Bell explained that it was' not likely that the. whole of tho now issuo would be called up for a . very loug timo. The limit -was' fixed at three millions in order tliat : the hink might not liaro to he continually seeking fresh .legislation to extend its operations. • A division was eventually taken on tho amendment, which y, as defeated hy 27 votes to 1. | . ' ;* i•• A couplo of other amendments wore also defeated, and '.he Bill was then reported amendments, read a third time; and passed. - TRAMWAYS BILL. VARIOUS AMENDMENTS MADE. Tho Tramways Amendment Bill (tho ■ Hon. H. D. Bell) was recommitted for the purpose of reconsidering Clause G, which had been added by the committee of the Council with a view to extending to local authorities the power conferred upon the Minister by the Act of 1910 to cause inspections of tramways to bo mado. The Hon. H. D. Bell moved as an amendment that Clauso 6 bo struck out. 'The reason for this was that the tramways of Christchurch and Auckland ran' through 'the districts of. a number.-of- ■ local authorities, and the clans© would give power to each local authority--to cause the inspcctiou to be made as provided. There was no reason-to sup-, pose that tho Minister would not, cause the inspection to he rnado when required and tho clauso was therefore unnecessary.., • The Hon. J. Barr said he was pleased that the Leader of tho Council had recommended the withdrawalyof the clause, which would lead to ; friction between the local authorities: concerned if it wore passed.Tho Bill was then reported with amendments. '. Tho Hon. H. D. Bell moved the third reading of the Bill, and in doing so explained .some of the reasons that had ; actuated the Special Committee of the Council ■in making the amendments (previously published). In dealing with the new ; clauses'of the Bill, which were inserted.'to * cope with 'strike emergencies, he'remarked that tramway employees had no right, to hold up the public service. They were -public servants, and, though no one could deny their right to refuse to continue in the ' public employment,. they had no right to act in..concert to prevent those of tho public living at: a distance from using the public' .facilities. The men had their remedy under the Act, and when they did-not choose to have thoir grievances determined by that means they .could not complain if the community organised to'provide for the carriage of .the peoplo when tho rogular drivers refused duty. The sections of the Bill under notice modified, .and, to some degree, extended the provisions of tho Act of 1910, which gave , protection in the'case's of . tho men, :wlio were then in the employment of the tram- ' ways. It was now -provided that, in the case o? these men, "examinations should bo dispensed.with."\ - • , The Hon! Sir Wm. HalhJones,-who was 1 chairman of . the -Special ■■ Committee' which' dealt: with'the Bill, placed/on record his appreciation-of the assistance rendered by the'tramway authorities;.in' connection- wi^h ; the Bi]l. The>am6n'dmonts' made Were the .'result of.' the ;eyi- " idenco'takon by, .the committee. ; 'I ■' The-third reading-w r as agreed -on the voices!. LOCAL BODIES' LOANS. The Local .'Bodies' Loans Bill', (the Hon. H. D.' Bell) was further Consider-, ed -in- Committee, aud reported with ■amendments. - : ' • ■ ' *. CO-OPERATIVE INSURANCE. The 1 Mutual Fire Insurance' Amend !ment Bill (tlio Hon. 11; D. Bell) was committed. The Bill was designed to enlarge the Act of 1908, allowing fanners to undertnko accident insurance on tho .co-operative ■system. An amendment made, to further enlarge tho , Act".of 1908, giving the co-operative associations powor to -insure' against fire the buildings;' machinery, plant, and products of, any registered co-operativo dairy company, whether such company was a member of tho association or not. Tho Bill was subsequently reported with amendments. / BOARD, OF,,AGRICULTURE BILL. Tho Hon. H. D. Bell moved.tho sec- ' ond reading of tho Board of Agriculture Bill, and in . doing" so mentioned that Now- Zealand was practically tho only civilised country lacking_such a hoard as was proposed by EuiTliill. Tho Hon. J. Anstey suggested some amendments to the , Bill in the direction of enlarging tlio personnel of tlio hoard, and extending its scope to; the dissemination of scientific and statistical information among farmers. The Hon. 11. D. 801 l said he would consult .tho Minister of Agriculture in regard to the suggestions. The second reading was agreed to on the voices, and the Council rose at 5.5 p.m.

THE HOUSE.

Mr. Wilford's amendment to the effect that the coming into operation of the Legislature Amendment Bill bo postponed until.April 1, 1915, was still Tinder discussion when Tue Dominion went to press yesterday. The amendment was eventually defeated by 32 votes to 13. Shortly before 3 a.m. a new relay of Oppositionists came into the Chamber to continuo the obstruction, ihe itc\v tuam. included Messrs. H. "oiaudj

HvAtmoro, A. T. Ngata', T. E: Y. Soddon, A. E. Glover, P. C. Webb, and Dr. Raugihiroa. With the advent of tho fresh watch, new subject matter, was introduced by Mr. Poland, who moved that tho Chairman do leavo tho Chair. , ■ For tlio hours of the grey dawn and tho sunny morning, the obstructors, tired with their long vigil, worked their tired . brains to discover something that was new and at the' same time relevant. Tlipy had only indifferent success,'and speakers were called to order very often. Tho only member who broke tlie monotony was Mr. A. Glover, from tho Queen City. He was speaking very far wido of the question boforo the Committee, and Mr; who had relieved Mr. Malcolm in tho Chair, called him to order several times. Mr. Glover protested at tho top of his voice that he claimed his right as a representative of the pc-ople. Mr. Leo said something about' sending for Mr. Speaker, but Air. Glover left the Chamber, saying to himself tho whilo "I claim my right," and afterwards in tho lobbies he could bo hr-.vd saying, "My good people, whom I love so well." Mr. Speaker was not sent for, but Mr. Glover did not come back t-o the Chamber. ' '• A division was taken on the motion at 7.55 a.m., aud it was defeated by 20 votes to 8. Mr. T. E. Y. Seddon moved an amendment to make the Bill como into force on Octobcr 1, 1914. This was tho position at tbo breakfast adjournment. It had taken tho House' 26 hours to pass, two words of a Bill of 96 words. ■ • The speakers during the all-night sitting, up to 8 a.m. yesterday, were as follow, the number, of . speeches made boing shown in parentheses: —Messrs. T. M. Wilford (2), G: Witty (2), W. D. S. Macdonald (2), R. M'Callum (2), L. M. Isitt (1), W. A. Veiteh (2), J. Payuo (1), H. G. Ell (1), G. W. Forbes (1), H. Poland (4). Dr. Rangihiroa (4), A. E. Glover (3), H. Atmore (4), P. C, Webb (4), T. E. Y. Seddon (4), A. !. Ngata (4), J. Robertson (4), C. Parata m

A Point of Order. ■ When the House resumed at 9.15 a.m. a question as 'to whether Mr. Seddon's amendment was in order was raised by Mr. Leo (Oamaru). He contended that, after,the defeat of Mr. Wilford's .ambndment, no further amendment of '.the kind was in order. •A- lengthy discussion on this point ensued, and eventually the ActingChainnim (Mr. Statham) ruled .that the amendment was not in order. Mr. J..C. Thomson (Wallacc) moved that, the following words bo : inserted after th 6 word "Act' 1 :—"Shall form part of and bo. read together with the Legislature Act; 1908." Mr. G. W. Russell (Avon), in order to gain further time, affected to find fault'with Mr. Thomson's amendment. He moved to amend the amendment by making it read: —"Shall bo read together with and be deemed to form part of." _ The "discussion" on the' merits of the two rival amendments was as lengthy as it was-devoid of interest. A great deal of the talk was directed to the meaning of the word "deemed." The talk dragged'on until one o'clock, when tho House, adjourned for-lunch. The speakers' ' from';9.3o a.m. until 1 p.m.,. and the number-of speeches they madt; woreMossr£. A. H. Hindmarsh (2), :I{. M'Gallura (2), A. T. •!Ngata<(2)'^'Grj• ..Bussell (5), D. -Buddo (4),G..W.'Forbes (11), J. C. Thomson (5), G. Witty' (1), C, Parata (1), A.- Glover (1), ;J.' Hanan . (2), L. M.-Isitt (1). Three' Ministers (the Hon. W, P. Massey, tho Hon. It. H. Rhodes, and the Hon. W. Eraser), and one private member on the Government side (Mr. E. P. Lee) each spoke once,on a point of order.. • Wearied Obstructors.- « j When it resumed at 2.30 p.m. the Committee settled down " wearily to "work." The Opposition speakers at this stage laboured very heavily in their efforts to make talk on a topic that. Md been 1 worn-.absolutely threadbare. They could muster up nothing better than loosely-;strung, scrappy remarks which at' best only just escaped the Chairman's rebuke, and very often did not do that. Every speaker was called to order more or less frequently. The- Committee went to a division upon Mr. G. W. Russell's amendment at 3.10 p.m. It was negatived by 39 votes to 12. . Mr. G. W. Forbes then moved (at 3.20 p.m.) that the Chairman leave tho chair. . , . - ( The Chairman Challenged^ The drift was interrupted for a time at 4.10 p.m., when Mr. G. W. Bussell asked Mr. W. H. D. Bell; who had replaced Mr. Malcolm in tho chair, by what authority he occupied it. Mr. Bell replied, by the.authority of the Chairman of Committees, Mr. Malcolm. Mr. Russell contended that Mr. Malcolm had no power, under the Standing Orders, to delegate his authority to another member. The Standing Orders provided that the Chairman should take the chair in Committee, and that lie should be replaced when necessary by one of a .panel of three Deputy-Chair-men -appointed by the Houso. Mr. Bell said that it had not been I the custom for years past to appoint a panel of Deputy-Chairmen. It was ' laid ,down in "May" that during a prolonged sitting the Chairman might J .withdraw and be replaced by another 'member without a question being, put. He ruled that he was properly m the chair. . , r , / After some further discussion, Mr. Bussell moved to take the Speaker s ruling on the Acting-Chairman's decision. . . , '■ Tho motion bomg agreed to on the voices, the Speaker was called in, and Mr. Bell exnlained the. nature of the difference which had arisen. Ho suggested that even had a panel of temporary chairmen been appointed it would still have been legal to install another momber in tho Chair temporarily. The matter was argued at length by Mr. G. W. Russell, who explained that ho had been, actuated solely by a desire to test tlio constitutional position. He had nothing to say against Mr. Bell, who had shown in the capacity of Chairman a judgment and tact beyond Ins years, and had demeaned himself with invariable courtesy towards members. (Hear, hear.) The Chairman Upheld. Hie Speaker ruled against the member for Avou. It had been tho custom for twenty years at any rale, he said, for tho Chairman of Committees to be replaced in long sittings by another nfemher. He. ruled that tho Chairman of Committees was absolutely right in his decision. The obstruction debate was resumed at 4.25 p:m., and the motion that tlio Chairman leave the Chair was bofore tho Committee right up' to' the, 5.30 p.m. adjournment. Following is a tally of speakers and speeches during the afternoon sitting, from 2.30 to 5.30 p.m. Messrs. D. 'Buddo (3), O. W. Forbes (2), R. .M'Galium (2), G. Witty (2), J. Hanan (1), W. D. S. Macdotiald (2), J. Colvni (2), W. A. Veitcli (1), J. Payne (2), G. W. Russell (3), J. V. Brown (1), C. Parata, (1), T. M. Wilford (1), H. G. Ell (1). ' , Members had an audience when they reassembled at 7.30 p.m., both galleries being.filled and all available seats arouud the floor occupied, but tile Opposition "watch on dcck" did not dorivo any inspiration from tho circumstance. Their speeches were as dreary as ever, and they were continually in conflict with the Chairman for dropping into irrelevance and tedious repetition. At 8.55 p.m. a division was taken on the motion that the Chairman leave.the chair, and it was negatived by 38 votes to 2-1. The speakers from 7.30 p.ni. until the _ .division was taken w.cre:. Messrs. „W. Al

Veitch, J. C. Thomson, A. H. Hindmarsh, H. Poland, O. i'arlitn, H. G. 1111, : T. E. l". Seddon, A. 'I'. Ngata, J. I'-ayne, and G. Witty. Each of these members spoke once. All of them wero called to order more nr less frequently, and three of t'liem, Messrs. Hindmarsh, l'olattd, and Payne, were ordered to discoutiiiuo their speeches. Tlio amendment gloved by. Mr. J. C. Thomson was also defeated on a division by 33 votes to 24. The Hon. A. T. Ngata then proposed an amendment making the first part of the short title read: "This Act, which shall be construed with tho Legislature Act, 1908. hereinafter reforred to as the principal Act. . . ." Tho Chairman ruled tho amendment out of order. Dr. Raugihiroa moved that tho word "may" should bo struck out of the Bill where it occurred' in tho short titlo ("This Act may . . . .")• Subsequently Dr. Rangihiroa explained that he wished to substitute "shall" for "may." This proposal opened up a wido field for talk, and a number of Oppositionists spoke without being called to order. At 11.30 p.m. Mr. W. H. D. Bell, who had just replaced Mr. Malcolm in tho Chair 'ruled Dr. Rangihiroa's amendment out of order on the grofind that it would have no effect. Mr. Bell stated that Mr. Malcolm, who had reserved his decision on the point, had informed him when vacating the Chair that he hud practically decided that the' amendment was out of order. In this opinion ho (Mr. Bell) concurred, and lie ruled tho amondmcnt out of order accordingly. Mr. J. C. Thomson moved to tako tho Speaker's ruling on tho ActingChairman's decision, and the motion was asreed to on tho voices.

Frivolous Amendments. After hearing argument, the Speaker ruled that tho amendment was a frivolous one, and that, the AcUng-Chair-man was perfectly right iu his decision. The substitution of "shall" for "may" would make no difference in the meaning of the .clauso. He held that every possibk) latitude should bo allowed in discussion, but it was always tho duty of the Chairman of Committees to rulo frivolous amendments out of order. ! Mr. G. W. Forbes then moved that tho words, "for all purposes," should be inserted in the short title, after the word "may," making it read: "The Act may for all purposes be cited The Acting-Chairman ruled tlio amendment out ot order, oil tho ground that it would not affect the meaning of the clause. Messrs. Forbes and J. C. Thomson protested, but the Chairman ruled that his decision could not bo questioned, except in the ordinary way (by moving to tako the Speaker's ruling). Sir J. Ward then moved to tako the Speaker's ruling. j.no motion was defeated by 32 votes to 19. 1 This meant that tlio question of the adoption of the short title was before the' Committee. The time was 11.50 p.m. From 9 p.m. until 11.50 p.m., when tho discussion upon the short title was resumed, the following members made tlio liumbor of speeches indicated: — Messrs. Ngata (3), G. W. Russell (1), To Rangihiroa (1), T. E. Y. Seddon (1), G. Witty (1), A. H. Hindmarsh (1), H. Poland (1), G. W. Forbes (2), H. Atmoro (1), J. C. Thomson (1). . Sir Joseph Ward is Puzzled. Mr. R. M'Callum declared with vcdiemence that the proposal to repeal tho Second Ballot was a mean and base political trick. . Mr. Herries raised a point of order. He asked whether it was in order for an honourable member to discuss the Second Ballot, which was not in the Bill. -• = - Mr. M'Callum: I'claim , tho. right of free speech. And if I 1 am denied the right of free speech, if I am gagged, I shall sit down and speak no more. • Sir Joseph Ward pointed out that the Prime Minister had iDtimated that tho repeal of the Second Ballot was to he put in the Bill. He protested that members should have the' right of free speech. Mr. Fraser: Within the Standing Orders. Mr. Bell Acting-Chairman, said ho was anxious to give members all the latitude to which they were entitled, but the permanent Chairman had ruled on the point, and he (Mr. Bell) had no option but to carry out the ruling of the permanent Chairman. The Chairman had, ruled that the Second Ballot and other forms of voting were not in the Bill, and wero therefore not before the Committee. It was not a matter upon which he (Mr. Bell) had any jurisdiction. ' Sir Joseph Ward then moved that progress be reported in order that the Speaker's ruling be takon. Mr. Bell, pointed out, however* that the permanent Chairman' had ruled tho matter out of order'on the ground that it was irrelevant to the Bill. That being so, in accordance with Mr. Speaker's direction, ho was not entitled to put the question that tho Chairman's ruling on the matter of relevancy bo questioned. He was bound by the ruling of the permanent Chairman on the one hand, and Mr. Speaker's ruling on the other. Sir Joseph Ward argued that the Prime Minister had stated that the test upon the repeal of tho Second Ballot would be taken on this Bill. 'Mr. Fisher: When the clause is moved. Mr. Bell: I am bound to follow the ruling of tho Chairman of Committees, and upon the decision of Mr. Speaker I am not entitled to jjut the question that Mr. Speaker's ruling be taken or the Chairman's ruling on a question of relevancy. Sir Joseph Ward argued a train that the second ballot was to be introduced into the Bill. Mr. Fisher: Tho second ballot is not in tho Bill. Sir Joseph Ward: The Prime Minister anounced that the test would be taken in this Bill. Mr. Fisher: That statement was mado by tho indulgence, of tho HoiSse, when you put a question to him. Sir Joseph Ward: I am not questioning as to how he made it, but ho maifc it. Mr. Herries: The clause may not bo moved. ' Sir Joseph Ward said that ho would accept tho position, but when Mr. Speaker was in tho Chair again ho would test it in tho constitutional way. More Vehemence. Mr. M'Callum wont on 'a"ain with his vehement denunciation of the Bill and tho Government. Speaking of tho Government, ho said:'."The hon. gentlemen. should bo ashamed of themselves. ■ Their name 3 will go down in shamo and infamy." Mr. Herries: Surely that ought to be withdrawn. Hon. members: Let it go. Tako no noticc of it. Mr. Fraser: Bryco had to go out of Parliament for tho same words. Mr. 801 l said ho would ask the hon. member to discontinue this line of talk. He did not propose to ask him to withdraw any of tho terms used. An Amendment Again. Mr. G. W. Russell at 0.20 a.m. moved an amendment to strike out the word "Legislature" from tho short title. If this were done, ho would submit other words which would give the Houso a much wider opportunity of discussing electoral reform than was afforded by : this Bill. Mr. Herries: What do you proposo to , insert? Mr. Russoll: A variety of words might , be insefted. Thcro might be inserted "Tho Single Transferable Voto Bill," > ,or "The Proportional Representation Bill,"

Tho amondmcnt, however, did not give members the latitudo which had apparently been hoped for. Members were allowed to suggest possible.—and impossible*—titles to bo given to the Bill in tho event of the word Legislature being deleted, but tlicy were not allowed to discuss tho merits of rival methods of election. They could rofcr to such systems, but could net speak about t-hom iu any detail. "Spying," A favourite device for rousing tho sleeping Government members who were reclining on their benches and therefore had to riso to a sitting posture before tlioy could bo seen by tho Chairman, was to call the Chairman's attention to tho state of the. House. One member who did this more .than once was Mr. MC'allum, and he mado himself unpopular with Government members in consequence. One Government member remarked upon his conduct. Whereupon Mr. M'Callum rose angrily while another member was speaking and raised a point of order. He had been accused of "spying," he said, by the member i'or Tauin&runni. Mr. Bell directed him to raise this question after the honourable member had finished speaking. This ho did. Ho declared that when ho had been walking down, ono of the aisles to his. seat, the member for Taumarwrai had said: "Are yoil spying?" He replied: "If you speak like that to mo I will report you to tho'Chairman." "Mr. Wilson said again: "You arc spying." Mr. Russell suggested that the words ought to bo taken-down, but Mr. Bell'J asked the member for TaUroanuiui for i his account of what, happened. * ! Mr. Wilson: Mr. Bell. I. askeH the j member for Wairau whether he was i spying, aud if it- hurts his feelings I will withdraw the words and apologise. The second part of l his statement is absolutely incorrect. Mr. Bell: Did anything further transpire? ' Mr. Wilson: Not another word. Sir. Mr. Herries pointed out that the usual'custpm was'to ask the .offending member to withdraw and apologise, and, if the hon.'member withdrew and expressed regret, an incident swill sis that alleged .was usually .allowed to drop. Mr. 'Wilson: I have apologised. Mr. M'Callunu.however said that the incidont had becowe mere serious iii that his.truthfulness had been impugned.' He was not satisfied. Mr. E; Newman and Mr. J. S. Dickson, both of whom sit near Mr. Wilson, said that they had heard the words spoken by Mr. Wilson, aiid they said that .they did not hear the words allsged by Mr. M'Callum, but denied by Mr. Wilson. Mr. Bell then advised Mr. M'Callum that ho must accept the statement of the member for Taumaruiiui that ho did use the words only onee, and did not repeat them. On this point independent witness had supported Mr. Wilson. Mr. M'Callum: I will not accept their statement. I oaniiot accept ..it. They might not have heard the-words. Their ears were closed. (These- words 6poken with great beat, and emphasised with thumps on the desk with the clenched fist.) Mr. Bell then declared the incident closed. ■ The "debate" then went on . much as usual thereafter, but it was app;«ent that .members were not. in their best humour.. Following were, the speakers between'll.iso p:m. and 2.30 a.m.: — Messrs. Ngata (2 speeches), M'Cailum (2), Russell (2), Fpi'bes, Poland,. Glor-er, Witty, Atmoro, .Secldoii, To Raegihim. (Left Sitting.)