ELECTORAL REFORM.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1912, 21 November 1913, Page 10

ELECTORAL REFORM.

MORE OPPOSITION TIME-WASTING. ; A TANGLED DEBATE. TESTING THE STANDING ORDERS. < Within a few minutes after the House . met, the Opposition resumed their ob- 1 struction of the Legislature' Amendment Bill, tho first move being to give ' notice of a shoal of amendments. Mr. G. W. Russell indicated that,he would , propose the introduction of the. single , transferable vote; and reform. of the \ Legislative Council. Mr. . MlCallum i said that he would move seVenty-two important amendments. ' Tho Hon. F. , M. B. Fisher raised a laugh by joining in the chorus, and stating that he also, whon the Legislature Amendment Bill 1 (Was in Committee, would move a short amehdmont. Some Oppositionists were ■ not content to give notice of amend- i ments, but read them, finding their ma- , terial in lengthy extracts from Bills which were thrown out by the House years ago. After this sort of thing > had continued for the best part of half an hour, Mr. Speaker intervened, to . point out that it was not necessary in ' giving notice of amendments to exceed a. bare statement that they would bo \ introduced. Sir J. Ward: They can do it the. other way, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker said that they could , to a certain extent, but he hoped they ' would not go too far' in that direction. ' Sir Joseph Ward submitted that in - 1 tho case of an important Bill of this j kind the House should be allowed to hear the whole of the amendments pro- i posed. ' Without Precedent. ! Mr. Speaker said that the right j honourable gentleman would know that ( during all the-time ho had been in Parliament such a thing had never occurred- before. His duty was-to main- \ tain order iu the House in the best i possible way, and, in his opinion, if \ honourable members got up and read rejected Bills to the House they would i not - be carrying, out their duties in a proper way. He meaely made a re- j qrest in ihe matter, and did not rule , members out of .order. Sir Joseph Ward admitted that an : unusual course was being adopted, but submitted that the circumstances warranted it. j A Minority Effort. ' The Prime Minister: In my opinion, . ; and in the opinion of many other people, ] what has been going on is not in i accordance with standing custom, and not in accordance with .constitutional ( privileges'. ,; It is 'quite evident to me ( that what is being done is being dono.with the-object of wasting time so as s to prevent the opinion of a majority of [ the members of this House being ex- , pressed on the Statute Book of this country. There is no doubt in my mind , or in the minds of other members that this attempt is'being made by a minority of members Sir Joseph Ward hero raised a pointof order, and- asked whether he would 1 have the right of reply. 1 The Speaker .said that Sir Joseph , Ward had made a statement as Leader of the Opposition, and the Leader if * tho House had replied to that state- I ment. He added that he never en- 1 deavoured to restrict debate. in any J shape or form, but he had suggested ' to honourable members, as the time of the House was being wasted, that it ( was sufficient to give notice of amend- s ments without reading them.- He would I leave it to the taste of honourable 1 members whether they would do it in 1 that way or otherwise. i I Standing orders Invoked. 1 Sir Joseph Ward now gave another i turn to-the discussion by moving the ] adjournment of the House. i The Prime Minister: Is the honourable gentleman in order iu moving the t adjournment.of the House? .Mr. Speaker: I understand the ad- i journment can bo moved, but, of course, i discussion must he restricted to the 1 qrestion of adjournment. . i Sir Joseph Ward directed the ; attention of the Speaker to tlio follow- ] iug ruling .••—"Tho adjournment of the j House-cannot he moved after the Speaker has directed the Clerk to call on tlio orders of the day until that direc- i tion is complied with, and then only as , a means.of getting' rid of the order call- ; cd on. The member moving the adjournment can only refer to that order, and cannot introduce extraneous matter." Tho order, the Leader of tho Opposition went on to remark, was the Legislature Amendment Bill. Tlio date of tho ruling he had quoted was April 26,1890. Ho asked whether ho had tho right to discuss tho Bill as indicated in tho ruling. The Prime Minister said that ho could not lay his hands at a moment's notice on the Standing-Order ho wanted, . but since 1890 thoro had been a revision of tho Standing Orders. They had been revised from ono end to the other in 1894, and no attempt had sinco been made to move the adjournment except when business had been concluded and in connection with the discussion ' of questions. That was the position, but tip to the present he had not been ablo to find tho Standing Order governing the matter. He asked the Speaker to rule as to whether tho adjournment of the House could be moved in tho present circumstances or iu any other case than when questions had been circulated on Wednesday afternoon. Sir 3'. Ward said that the Standing Order upon which ho was proceeding had never been altered. The Standing Order was specific that tho member moving the adjournment must refer only to the order to be got rid of and nothing else. The Speaker's Ruling. The Speaker said that since tho Standing Orders were altered in 190G an honourable member could move'the adjournment of the House, but must keep strictly to the question of adjournment and not refer to any other matter at all. Other questions that had been raised referred to a time when an honourablo member could move tho adjournment at , almost any time. He confine himself to what had been practised for the last twenty, years. Tho Prime Minister said that this was a very important question and he would ask Mr. Speaker to take time be- ! fore he finally decided. He recollected the circumstances under which the Standing Orders were altered; so did the Leader of the Opposition, and so did Mr. Speaker—rSir Joseph Ward asked whether, when the' Speaker had -given a definite de- i Ixisionj it was open to tho Prime Miu,.

ister or any other member to debate Mr. Speaker's ruling. There was a proper way to question Mr. Speaker's mling. The Prime Minister: 1 quite understand that. Mr. Speaker: I gave a certain ruling on the question, and the Leader of the House drew my attention to another matter. The Prime Minister said that it was not unusual for the Speaker to give tentative rulings subject to revision- Re went on to state that when th';. Standing Orders were revised in 18i>l it was ino custom of Parliament to take questions and answers every day. The Standing Order -was framed accordingly. As time went on the Standing Orders.were altered so that questions and answers should only be dealt with on one day in tho week. He took it thai the other Standing Order had also been altered so that -the adjournment coidd only ho moved in reference to questions "and answers. Sir Joseph Ward contended that there was no Standing Order depriving . a member of _ the right to move the adjournment in connection with an order of tho day.' The Prime Minister quoted a ruling that when questions and replies were not before the House the adjournment could hot be moved. Sir' Joseph Ward: On Wednesdays/ The Prime Minister: Yes or any other day. He added that his contention was borne" out by the fact that since--1895 no attempt had been made to move, tho adjournment save at the conclusion of business or in reference to questions. Decision Reserved. After hearing some further argument tho Speaker said that he. could not find any Standing Order under which a private member was entitled to move the adjournment except on question days. He was quite clear.on this point: that when an horn member moved the adjournment he must keep strictly to the question of the adjournment. He had a doubt as. to whether a private member could move the adjournment of the House and he would reserve his decision on that point. It would be in the interests of the House that tho matter should bo postponed until ii-ext day. Sir J. Ward asked whether the Prime Minister, in the event of tho House being in Committee on the morrow, would enable tho Speaker to give his decision on this important point. The Prime Minister: No, I can't do that. Sir J. Ward: I understand that the Speaker has ruled. Mr. Speaker: "Not on that." , He added that ho should be given time to consider his decision. "A Fair Thing," Sir J. Ward said that he quite agreed but ho would ask the Prime Minister if it would not be a fair thing to post.pone the Bill until nest day. "Probably," ho added, "wo won't get back to the House for another month or six weeks, and meanwhile- we are all in doubt as to what Mr. Speaker's ruling is." The Prime Minister liere made an inaudible remark, to which the Leader of the Opposition took strong exception, declaring that the Prime Minister, had suggested that some influence would be brought to bear on the Speaker or Chairman of Conimittces, with a view to limiting -free'speech. Tho Prime ■ Minister said that whatho was 'thinking of was that tho -lion, gentleman had not a full and proper knowledge of the Standing Orders and forms of tho House. Sir J. Ward: How do you know what is going to be done ? The Prime Minister: I do not knowwhat Mr. Speaker oj the Chairman of Committees intend to do, and don't want to know. I don't want to use any influence or bring any pressure to bear upon "either of these tw*o hon. gentlemen. The Speaker said that ho had D.e\*er taken.any advice, or suggestions from any Minister or anyone else. '■ The Chairman of. Committees also stated that never,' on any ocsasion, directly or indirectly, had tie Govern* ment attempted to influence or make themselves acquainted with what his action would be. Mr. Hanan's Accusation. Mr. Hanan: "I have heard them prompting you in Committee l--Minis-ters.' JJo you deny that?" Mr. Malcolm: 1 most certainly do! What tho Ministers sometimes do, when they sit beside me, is to ask if an hon. gentleman is not out of order. I am talking now of my position in the House. Never in any way. has the Government attempted to influence me. Sir Joseph AVard said.that he wanted to say at once, and speaking quite sincerely, that he had not found in the House anything other than a desiro to show fair play to every member of the House. • The observation he- had made was based upon an interjection by the Prime Minister when he said that they might not get out of Committee for three weeks or a month. The Prime Minister interjected that they would "soon find out to the contrary." •The Prime Minister: 1 did not say that. Sir J. Ward: Well, the hon. gentleman made a very definite statement on the point. He went on to remark that the Prime Minister had made a statement that seemed to imply a closure, and he wanted to know haw the Prime Minister was in a position, to make a remark of that kind. The Prime Minister said in explanation of his remark that there were records in "Hansard" which showed that certain powers were given to Mr. Speaker and the Chairman of Committees to prevent obstruction by a minority of members in the House, and that such a power had been exercised on more than one occasion''in the history of the New Zealand Parliament. Mr. Russell: Is that tho closure, by precedent 'f Sir J. Ward: We have- never had a closure. The Prime Minister: It has boon done, and at the proper timo I will ■ quote a record in Hansard of what lias been done. Mr, Hanan's Denial. The Prime Minister host referred to an interjection by Mr. Hanan when the Chairman of Committees was -speaking a little earlier. Mr. Hanan, /bo stated, had said: "J have heard Ministers prompt you while sitting in the Chair." Mr. Hanan: No, my interjection was this (and the member will bear m© out): "Have Ministers, in Committee, prompted you?" Government members: No! Nol The Prime Minister said that Mr. Hanan's remark was: "I have heard Ministers prompt you when in tie Chair." He added that this- was a very improper statement to make, and Mr. Hanan should be called upon to explain or withdraw it. Mr. Hanan repeated liis denial, and contended that Air. Malcolm's reply showed tho remark was interrogative. Mr. Malcolm said that his recollection of what Mr. Hanan said was: "I have hea.rd them doing it in Committee." • Mr. Isitt: They consult with . you there. Mr. Malcolm: I do sometimes got into consultation with Ministers, in charge, but in no such case has it been upon points of order. Mr. Speaker: I understand that the member for Invorcargill did not impute any improper motive to the- Cls.air.n-mi) of Committees. The matter nan end there. Obstruction Resumed. The House went into Committee' on the Legislature Amendment • Bill at ■1.1 o p.m. ' T.lio Opposition members at once resumed what Mi'.- M'.Callum c-alls-d their "solemn protest against LhiowiiiK iui« , . ..,...'■.'. 'rF^, '.*

: ponrmt- matters into a Bill of this ■ kind." Tho "protest" was' still under ■ way at 5.30 p.m., the topic of discussion then being a proposal by Mr. Brown to strike out the word "Act" in tho short, title of the Bill, and substitute "Statute." In the evening it was quite evident that members had resigned themselves to "a night of it." Most of them hud provided themselves with cushions and light literature, and a- well-padded easy cliair was provided for tho Minister in. charge of the Bill. Tho subject matter of tho amendment was so circumscribed that members appeared to iind exceeding difficulty in speaking to it, even for ten minutes at » time. Scarcely one of them escaped the correction of the Chairman (Mr. Malcolm) for having introduced irrelevant matter. Nor were they always prompt to obey rulings, arguing with a show of deference that the Chairman's ruling was not quite right. . ■ Mr. Malcolm kept a cool and 1 dignified demeanour- throughout these little encounters, obviously arranged for the doublet purpose, of w-asting time and baiting the Chair.. . More than once ho had to advise a member that if he again transgressed his ruling he Would order the member to discontinue his speech. . At 8.45 }>,m. the amendment went to the vote, and a division was called as a matter of course. The amendment was .defeated by. 38 votes to 19. Immediately the declaration was made, Mr. Nosworthy moved to strike out the figures at the end of Clause 1. Mr. Wilford; I.have a prior amendment, Sir. I move -that the following words be. inserted after the .word Act, "shall not come into operation -.until the first day of April, 1915, and." Mr. Wilford's amendment was allow* ed as being in order, and the discussion proceeded along easier linos, seeing that members were allowed to advance reasons why the Act should not coinc into operation at once. At 9.5 p.m., however,' Mr. G. W. Eussell moved to report progress, and furnished an elaborate list of reasons in suport of his. proposal. Extreme dullness had descended upon the House by the time it resumed at 10 p.n-i. About thirty members were in their places, and before long those sitting up were in a minority. The Oppositionists who set themselves to give reasons for reporting progress were keenly watched by the Chairman (.Mr. A. S. Malcolm), and few of them escaped being warned several times for irrelevance. A number were ordered ■to discontinue their speeches either for repeatedly drifting into irrelevance or for tedious repetition. The motion to report progress was before the Committee from 10 p.m. until 0.7 a.m. Members addressed themselves to this topic in the following order:—Sir J. Ward, Messrs. ft. M'Caltum (checked on numerous occasion.*), J. Payne (ordered to resume his scat after warnings), J, V. Brown (speech shortened by Chairman), J.. A. Hanan (frequently warned), W. A. Veiteh (twice challenged by Chairman), J. V. Brown (ordered to resum'o his seat), W. D. S. Macdonald (warned once). G. Witty (oflce warned), L, M. Isitt (twice Warned), H. G. Ell (six times called to order), G. Forbes (three times called), t. M. .Wilford (once called), J. Payno (three time* called),. R. M'Calhun (once called), G. Forbes (three times called), H, G. Ell (fivb times called), W. D. &'. Macdonald. These- wore the speakers between 10 p.m. and midnight, and at 0.7 a.m. a division was taken. As the list shows tho talk was the merest rubbish, and members had to bo called to order scores of times for irrelevancy and .tedious repetition. Obstruction by Relays, The motion was defeated by 33 to 10. The division list shows that the Opposition had already settled down to obstruct by relays. There were from eight to ten Opposition members in-the Chamber, but there- were others in the building resting until their "shift" had come .round. The Government, on the other hand, liad to keep a full attendance of their following to be in readiness in ease- a snap division should be called, and. to keep a quorum. The obstruction was carried on after midnight by Messrs, Wilford, Macdonald, Forbes, Isitt, M'C'allum, Dr. R-angiliiroa, Messrs. veiteh and Payne, the shift on'duty at the time. The question before the Committee- was Mr. Wilford's amendment to delay the coming into operation of the Act until April 1, 1915.. The amendment afforded- matter for talk until after TtfE DoiiiNioN went to press, and although the speakers found it- more easy to avoid introducing irrelevant- matter on this amendment than on the motion to report progress, jt could not bo said that the speeches were any less dreary. When we went to press all the members • "on shift" 4ad spoken once, and tie second round of speeches was nearly concluded.