A HEATED DISCUSSION.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1906, 14 November 1913, Page 9

A HEATED DISCUSSION.

MEMBERS & SPECIALS. DISCRIMINATION ALLEGED; ALSO OPPROBRIOUS LANCUACE. POSITION OF THE MILITARY. Some days ago Mr. J. Robertson, member for Otaki, asked a question in tho House of Representatives which suggested by implication that staff officers of tho Territorials had been in command of special police, and that Colonel Heard had given orders to somo of thorn. Yesterday tho Hon. J. Allen (Minister of Defence) read a letter in the House from Colonol E. S. Heard on tho subject. Following was tho text of the letter: — "With reference to a question in tho House, asked by Mr. Robertson as to staff officers of Territorials being in command of special constables, Mr. Robertson mado a statement that, in his presence, I had given orders to special constables. I wish to give this statement a direct contradiction. On tho day in question I had been paying a call on tho commander and officers of H.M.S. Psyche, and, as I _ was returning, I met somo friends who happened to be speciar constables on the wharf, and entered into conversation with them. I saw Mr. Robertson and other M.P.'s there. Mr. Robertson has no right to make the statement ho did without verifying it. I havo never given an order to any special constable. I havo nothing to do ' with them, and I emphatically deny Mr. Robertson's statement, which was mado without any foundation in fact. I beg that my denial may be given in the House." Mr. Allen moved that tho letter do lie on tho table, and there followed a debate which had little to do with tho letter, .but- which had a good deal to do with brushes between members of Parliament and special constables. In "Good Faith." Mr. J. Robertson said he had no desiro to misrepresent Colonel Heard, but ho wished to relate what actually took place. Ho. claimed that he had hoard Colonel Heard say to a party of Bpecial constables, who were preventing him (Mr. Robertson) from going along the ,ono ia to bo allowed to pass unless ho has a pass signed this morning." Ho had understood this as an instruction from Colonol Heard,.and he had asked his question in perfect good faith.

Complaint was made by Mr. Payno, Mr. Robertson, and Mr. Hindmarsh that while Labour members had not been allowed to go on the wharf, Government members' had been allowed to pass freely. Mr. Russell's Indignation. Mr. G. W. Russell said he had been ordered off the wharf, and by a special constable who was under tho influenco of liquor. Ho would not havo objected to the older to leave tlio wharf, except for the fact that another member of Parliament (Mr. It. F. Bollard) was allowed to remain unchallenged. Ho declared that tho special constables were "young pups, lawyers' clerks of Wellington, who wished to insult mo because I am not on tho sido on which they are." Members Themsolvos to Blame. '■'■' Mr. G. V. Pearee said that there had been no differentiation. Memoers of the Government party wore also stopped. Somo meinuors of tho House were to blamo themselves, if their profienco was objected to on tho wharf. The member lor Waiinarino had called a sergeant of special police a "b— bastard." Eviuenco could ho brought to prove that tho memoor used these words.

Air. Hindmarsh (who had been making noisy interjections, indistinguishable amid tho uproar at the timo) shoutfid: You. aro a disgrace to the House, You're a disgrace to mankind I Mr. Ma3sey: Sir, 1 think this has gene fat- enough. ... I would ask you to remind members that tbey aro in the Parliament of Now Zealand.

' Mr. Speaker: I must ask honourable members to bohavo themselves. Tho behaviour of the last few minutes has been very disorderly.- I-must ask honourable mombers to restrain themselves. In the meantime- the memher for Waimarino camo into the Chamber, and Mr. Pearce repeated his accusation. No Discrimination. Mr: J. H. Escott said ho had been held up in spite of the fact that ho had shown his member's railway pass. There had been no discrimination in his 1 favour, and he did not believe that any of the special constables on duty knew what side of the Houso he was on. They did not ask his name, and so far as ho know they did not know it. Ho explained that he had made no charge against the member for Waimarino, never having mentioned his name. He had suggested that there ought to be an inquiry, and that in the interests of Parliament and of tho special police the matter should bo cleared up. Mr. 11. F. Bollard ,said that thero had been no discrimination in his favour, and he contradicted tho statement that ho had been allowed to pass while tho member for Avon was held up. Ho also contradicted the statement that tho special constable referred to was under tho influence of liquor. Tho fact was that both''the member for Avon and the member for Otaki wero excited at tho time. Ho; like them, had been ordered to leave', but ho remained "to arguo the point" with tho specials. Mr. H. J. H. Okoy corroborated the statement that tho special constable referred to by Mr. Russell was not under tho influence of liquor. Sir Walter Buchanan, Mr. J. G. Coates, Mr. J. H. Bradney, and Mr. D. Buick aIL declared that they had been stopped when they went to tho wharf, and denied that any exceptions had heon made in their favour. What Mr. Smith Says He Said. Mr. R. W. Smith (member for AVaimarino) said he wished to.give au emphatic denial to what had been said by

tho member for I'atea and tho member for Pahiatua. And ho felt it would liavo been very much fairer and nearer to playing the gamo if either or both of them had como to him and got his sido of tho story, or at least told him what they proposed to do. "I understand," ho said, "that the two members I have mentioned are anxious to uphold the dignity of Parliament. I ask is this tho way to do it?—to bring potty littlo squabbles into a placo of this sort. Thoro aro remedies' for things of this kind and they can be. taken. Thoy should not be brought in horo." Ho went on to give his account of the occurrence which took place near ono of tho wharf stores. His account was that he had been held up by special constables, and that ono of them had threatened him by holding a baton over his head. Ho protested against such conduct, but he did not use the words alleged. Ho asked the man merely what lie meant by "attacking decent citizens in a dastardly way," (This explanation was received with ironical laughter by Government members.) Then Mr. Smith said another constable, a nioro friendly ono, spoke to him, and lie told this second constable, referring to the first one, that lie was "not going to be bullied by a dastard like that." Subsequently he was hustled off the wharf, and tho

gato closed upon liini, Ho went on to quote, the dictionary meaning of "dastard," with apparent satisfaction to himself. Lucky to Escape. Mr. J. H. Escott said, in explanation, that ho had never accused Mr. Smith of having used any particular Word. Ho had simply asked that the incident bo inquired into. He added that if the honourable gentleman Jiad given tho definition of the word aright, ho was very lucky to get oif without violoucc. . Sir Joseph Ward on Dignity. Sir Josepli Ward said ho had been a member of Parliament for the last 26 years, and never before had ho felt so humiliated as at tho present moment. "We have conic to a degrading position of things," ho said, "when some members on one side of the House regard it as part of their duty to come into this Houso with tales about their brother members, when upon hearsay evidenco accusations are made of tho lowest possible kind." He continued his protest by saying that such accusations were beneath tho dignity of Parliament, especially when Parliament had such important matters with which to concern itself. Mr. W. Noswortliy said he did not wish to say anything about the matter, but ho did say that after things had gone as far as they had it was only fair to the member for Waimariuo and the police that both sides should have on opportunity of clearing up tho facts.

Tho Hon. J. Allen said he was tery sorry that the debate had taken the turn it had. Tho letter ho had read was a refutation of certain charges made by a member of the House against Colonel Heard. Colonel Heard wished it to be made clear that he, as Commandant, had never mixed up with tlio •strike. He had been most careful about keeping tho military and'the Territorials out of tho strike. He (Mr. Allen) was certain that Colonel Heard had written in tho letter what he knew to be true. And he (Mr. Allen) was sura the member lor Otaki would accept the statement.