LICENSING LAW.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1882, 16 October 1913, Page 5

LICENSING LAW.

CASE FOR THE LIQUOR TRADE,

STABLE EQUILIBRIUM.

THE PRESENT POSITION

DEFENDED.

PREMIER INTERVIEW ED.

Retention of tho three-fifths majority in licensing polls was urged by a largo deputation, representing the licensed liquor trade of tho Dominion, .which interviewed the Hon. W. l'\ Massey (Prime Minister) fast evening. Tho deputation included representatives of wholesale and retail .licensed .traders in every electorate in tho nonunion.

■ llr. J. .bollard, member tor Jiden, who introduced the deputation, said that it consisted of delegates from all parts of the Dominion (representing tho wholesale and retail licensed trade) who .were desirous of urging upon tlio Prime (Minister the necessity of ■ maintaining the present licensing law unaltered, and of placing before him- their arguments in favour of tno retention of tho present three-lil ths majority, oil all issues now placed before tho public, as a proper margin of safety to ensuro security and Stability. '

Case For The "jfrade." Mr. J. Beveridge, licensee of tho Grand Hotel, Wellington, was spokesman for the deputation and read a lengthy statement setting forth in detail tho position taken by the deputation. It is set .forth that the representatives of tlio liquor trade understood, from what had appeared in the press, that the Primo Minister purposed shortly making a statement as to tho Government's intentions respecting the introduction tliis session of a Bill reducing the effective majority at no-licensing polls. As representing the large financial,, commercial, and industrial interests vested in the licensed trade in all parts of the Dominion, they vtlitured to submit cer-

tain arguments which, it seemed to i * them, rendered it inadvisable not only / from their own point of view, but from the standpoint of the country and its ' people that any change should be inado in tile existing law. Mr. Massey's Attitude. Tho statement went on to romind tho I Prime Minister that three, years ago . in the debate on the Licensing Bill introduced b.y tho Ward Government, lie supported the three-fifths majority, and made the' following statement on the subject:—" Speaking for myself, I have stood by the principle of the three-fifths majority up to the present and for this reason: ,that in connection with the changes that have taken place it has secured stability. There has ' been .no swinging backward and forward from . Prohibition to No-License and from NoLicango to Restoration, or anything of that sort. The three-fifths majority has had the effect of securing stability / as far as tho Licensing Law is concorned. ' ' "We have quoted these remarks," tho statement continues, "simply to justify our oonviction that you are prepared to givo a sympathetic hearing to our suggestion, and certainly not .with any intention of implying that you are necessarily bound to hold at the .present moment precisoly the opinion that you held cn this question three •years ago. We respectfully suggest that no attempt should be mado by your . Government to alter tho existing law in the direction of reducing the threefifths majority to 55 per cent, until ) you are convinced that tho public demand for such a change\is so strong and united that you, as the head of tho Government, are not justified in refusing the representatives of tho people an opportunity to give expression to their opinions on the subjeot ono way or tho other. A Popular Mandate. "Our chief purpose in approaching you to-day is to submit to you tho * reasons that have convinced us that the demands for reduction of the threefifths majority—whether to tho 55 per cent, or the bare majority—do not represent in any sense a popular mandate with the full weight of public opinion behind it ' We would point out that theso demands are most largely tho clamour of a body of irresponsible extremists, prepared to sacrifice to their one idea of No-License the interests audi convictions of everybody else in the country, and could not possibly bo granted without introducing to our legislation and our social, com-, mercial, and financial system a dangerous element of insecurity and instability that could not fail to re-act disastrously upon tho public welfare, and to imperil tho material and political prospects of our country. , A Political Axiom. " We need! hardly remind you that it is an axiom with all great political thinkers and writers that no legislation can produco satisfactory results unless it is maintained long enough to afford an opportunity for testing its value and proving by practical- oxperienco whether it can or cannot perform what its advocates claimed that it ' would do. Any legislation that is liable to be quicklv reversed , is, therefore, bad in principle, not only because it is both expensive and useless, but because it makes for uncertainty and instability. By applying this axiom to 1 tho Licensing Act of 1910 wo feel assured that you will agree with us that it has not yet had a fair trial, nor has it, so far, proved ineffective. " Need we remind you of what Lecky statedwhen he wrote, in regard to the conditions on wlhich laws interfering with personal rights should or should not bo passed:—'Restriction will be

imposed, but only when and so far as I they are supported by a genuine public opinion. It must not be a mere majority, but a largo majority, representing a real earnest desire, and especially in tho classes who are most directly affected; not a mere'fictitious majority such as is often created by skilful organisation and agitation by the enthusiasm of tho few confronting the indifference of the many." A Proposal Condemned. "This is the only principle on which Sill safe and sound legislation can bo carried, and if it is noglected the results must be seriously injurious to the welfare of the country concerned. If [we apply this principle to tho proposal to reduce the three-fifths majority to fifty-five per cent, (which it must be retaembered is regarded by tho No-Liqense party only as a stepping-stone to the baro majority) there can be no doubt that, judged by this standard, it stands utterly and absolutely condemned.

An Insufficient Majority. • Tho effect of reducing tho three-fifths majority to so narrow a margin _of superiority as is represented by 55 per cent, of tho total votes polled, would mean that either No-Licenso might be established or .llio licensed trado might be restored by tlio voto of an extremely small section of the voters polling in such constituency or- throughout tho Dominion, and that majority, small as it would be, would not of necessity represent anything like a majority of tho electors actually entitled to vote. Experience teaches that only about 80 por cent, of our electors register their votes under tho most favourablo conditions. Now a three-fifths majority of 80 per cent, means only 48 per cent, of tho whole body of electors; while a 55

1 per .cent, majority of 80 por cent, of tho electors means only 44 per cent, of tho whole. Therefore, under tho system which the No-Licenso party now support, either local No-Liccnsc or National Prohibition could be carried by a small . minority of the electors, oven though a substantial majority of the people wcro strongly opposed to any change. Rights of the Trade. "There can bo 110 doubt," the statement continues, "that National Prohibition would mean a-most disastrous loss to tho brewers, wine and spirit merchants, tho hotelkeepcrs, and many thousands of men and women whom they now employ. Of coursc, tlieso people desorvo 110 more consideration than anybody else who carries 01V, a legitimate trade under the protection of the law and in accordance with its provisions. /But they desorvo' 110 less; and it is undeniable that many Prohibitionists would give them less if they could. Some extreme Prohibitionists scorn tho idea of compensation for tho Trade; and so, if 55 per cent, majority, or its logical sequel, the baro majority is ever adopted, the Trade might some day find all its property, including tho livelihood of many thousands of respectI able and law-abiding citizens, swept away without the least hope of redress by 1 a comparative handful of votes that would bo sufficient to turn the scale against them, even though it did not stand for an actual majority of the electors. Now, tho fact that a largo number of people are going fo be ruined and! that tlie State is going to lose a largo revenue which it will find great difficulty in replacing, might not bo considered a conclusive argument against Prohibition. But it is certainly a strong argument against inflicting such disastrous and far-reaching injury npon a large number of citizens, and upon the interests of the whole Do- , minion at the dictate of any small nominal majority . which may actually stand for only ft minority of tho whole body of electors. A Haphazard Vote. / "It should thus bo clear that the state of things produced by- the very narrow limits of the majority! required to carry Prohibition would be, from the standpoint of tho Trade and the country, insecure and precarious to tlie extreme. But it is also easy to show that from the standpoint of the Prohibitionist also the position would bo ono of unstable equilibrium, and that the system of No-License established in this casual and haphazard fashion in turn be overthrown just as easily by tho same means. For the few votes constituting tho required majority, the very small proportion of tho total voting strength of the electors for the Dominion merely to set up NoLicense would be all that would bo wanted to change the scene. Through some unforeseen accident, such as bad weather in the country districts on polling day, or through over-confidence and lack of organisation of the party in powor, the balance would swing the other way, and in a moment the system that Prohibitionists had built up would be overthrown. , '

"Chaos and Disorder." "It is not our business to protect the Prohibitionists against the consequences of their own rashness; but it seems to to us to be a duty to point out to you that even if No-License were onco established by the 55 per cent, majority, of by the bare majority, to which it is intended to lead up, the same insecurity and ■ instability would still exist in regard to the permanence of the system. At any election the verdict of the last licensing poll might be reversed by a few chance votes,.and the general outcome'of the proposed change, whether No-Liconse or liquor gains the day for tho moment —would be a condition of chaos and disorder such as no publicspirited Government would likely bring upon the country, and such as all just and wise legislation is supposed to obviate. Bare Majority—A Test. As evidence of what instability means when the majority controlling the issuo is reduced to very small dimensions, reference is made to the movement of public opinion, as disclosed in the returns in some of the electorates where NoLicense has already been established. It is a fact, it is stated, that if tho bar majority had been in force at last poll, tho No-License distriefs of Ashburton, Masterton, and Ohinemiiri would have been licensed districts again. As for this district carried NoLicense in 1902, and if tho baro majority had been in force in-1905, at the very next poll licenses would have been restored; a position which was strengthened by increasing majorities in 1908 and 1911. A Safeguard Attacked. It appears to us to be a most remarkable fact about this demand for a reduction of the majority needed to carry No-License that it is supported by so few logical arguments. We would draw your attention to the views expressed by prominent leaders of the Prohibition Party, when they have, in effect, from time to time asserted that they cannot hope to win under the present one-fifth margin, and that Parliament, therefore, should help them to achieve their object by reducing ot_ abolishing such margin—a safeguard introduced by Parliament into the licensing laws to save the country from falling into that whirlpool of insecurity and instability into which liquor legislation, carried by a small majority, would certainly precipitate it. And because they cannot win with those safeguards standing, they call upon you to sweep the barriers away, to forget all about tho security of the public interests and the necessity, for maintaining steadiness and consistency in our system— in fact, to let chaos come again, if only they may gain the victory. " A Confession of Failure." "As a matter of fact," it is submitted, "tho appeal made by tho No-License leaders to Parliament to bring in the 55 per ceilt. majority or the bare majority—so as to give tho No-License Party a bottor chance of winning is really a confession of their, complete and utter failure—an admission that they cannot possibly convince the peoplo or their, representatives that Prohibition ought to bo carried without ignoring those safe and reasonablo conditions—those' precautions against insecurity and instability and rapid and dangerous change such as the political experience of all countries has shown, oro nepessary to protect both public and private interests under sucn circumstances as theso. An Ambiguous Claim. "We would now refer to another statement we have heard in support of the 55 per cent, majority, or tho bare majority, namely that it is more democratic than the' three-fifths majority. In tho i first place, we pre- • sume that if this means anything it means that tho idea of Democratic Government is adherence to the baro majority. But if that is so, tho 55 per cent, is undemocratic, just as is tho three-fifths majority. However, tho No-License leaders admit that they regard tho 55 per cent, majority only as an intermediate step toward tho bar!; majority and our remarks on this subject will apply oquallv to either case. Wo may point out that even in a Democratic country t)io use of such a term as 'undemocratic', may bo highly ambiguous and misleading. At ono time in England all that a politician or a public man had to do to ensure the defeat of any measure he opposed was to describo it as' 'un-Britisli,' because peoplo in general do not like to seem unpatriotic, and did not stop to inquire why tho proposal in question should bo thought inconsistent with British tradition. If a Democratic form of Government is ono undor which tho will of the peoplo is intended to prevail in such a way as to secure the general welfare, most certainly; and .Qermanently, t-W

wo assort, without foar < of contradiction, that tho bare majority or anything approximating closely to it is, in regard to such legislation as this, essentially ' undemocratic.' And tho reason is that, as wo have already shown, tlio welfare of tho country cannot he assured if uncertainty and insecurity which would spring from the uso of the baro "majority, arc tho prevailing features of our social and legislative system. Furthermore, wo loontend that tho whole question of Prohibition or No-Licenso is 0110 that is, from the Democ,ratio standpoint, particularly illadapted for settlement by an appeal to a baro majority or oven a small majority of votes. '

Precedents Cited. "But when the Prohibitionist tells us that t'ho bare majority is democratic, and that t'ho alternative schemes are l'ot, they mean something more than this. They imply that such precautions as are embodied in tho application of tlio thre'e-iifths majority are unknown in any other sphere of political or social activity in democratic communities. On this point wo join issuo with them. For it is in the first place a matter of common knowledge that in all well constituted and properly organised companies.- associations, and other organisations (clerical and commercial) more than a bare majority is required to alter tlio constitution or modify any important rules or regulations bearing on the administration of affairs. A three-fifths or even larger majority is of common occurrence m such connections, and' so necessary is t'his provision that it is specifically stipulated for in the Acts by which tho powers and duties of such companies, associations and organisations aro defined. And wliy? Because it is' only through a substantial majority—something considerably more than a bare majority that stability, consistency, and continuity can. be secured. An Appeal to Democracy. "Not only is tho bare majority rejected by commercial men, but it is also not recognised'in many Acts of Parliament, particularly those referring to local government of counties and road districts as regards the carrying of proposals affecting 'the interests of -ratepayers. It is also rejected by the leading representatives of extreme democratic sentiment throughout the world, under all circumstances where stability and security are essential to success..

. . . Wo find that one of the Labour organisers in tho Dominion stated publicly that 'No step should bo taken in the direction of strike unless the result of the ballot. gave a very substantial majority in favour of striking, without such a majority as to constitute, practical unanimity any striko was ' foredoomed to failure.' Hero we find one of the leading representatives of democracy, in one of the most democratic countries in the world condemning and rejecting that ' democratic standard of the Prohibitionists, the bare majority. Now, let us turn to England. In tho reports of tho evidence heard by the last Royal Commission on Labour it is recorded that when the Eight Hours' Day was under discussion, Mr. 1 Tom Mann was called as a witness and asked to explain his views as to tho application of the system. . . . He refused to accept the baro majority._ For he advised that " three-fifths majority of tho adult workers in a trade should be necessary to. set in motion the local administrative machinery chargeable with the working of tho measure. A Magic Phrase, "In the face of such ovidence'as this, what do the Prohibitionists mean by asserting that the bare majority is essentially 'democratic/ or that the 55 per cent, majority is more 'democratic' than the throe-fifths majority? Tho truth is that the magic phrase, 'bare majority,' is one of ,those catch words that'so often do duty for political knowledge br statesmanship 'with the ignorant and superficial.. l;or that system of government and legislation is most truly democratic which, by whatever method of voting or wnatever kind of majority most effectually secures tho safety, the happiness, and the prosperity of the great mass of the people. And to come back again to the No-License agitation, we think that we have shown good reasons for our belief that all these ends can b'e best secured in regard to the liquor laws by insisting on such substantial majority as that already provided hero by the existing law. The Rights of Minorities. "Wo have made it clear that the supposed arguments generally advanced in support of tho 55 per cent, majority or the baro majority as a means of settling the question of prohibition are in reality baseless.* And wo mav further point out that one necessary effect of the acceptance of a small majority to decide such questions must always be to ignore the rights of a large minority. This is generally admitted to be illegal, and for' this reason modern constitutional systems do their best to provide means of escajio. for minorities from absolute subjection to the arbitrary will of tho' majority. This is • the idea on which is ' founded that system of proportional representation of which you, fir, have lately expressed your approval. The smaller the'majority by which either No-License, Continuance, or Restoration may be carried the greater is tho certainty that a largo minority of moderates will bo practically disfranchised and coerced into the adoption of a system of which' they vehemently and conscientiously disapprove. Under such circumstances to force such a policy on tho country j>y means of a small majority would bo grossly inequitable and contrary to all the principles of enlightened legislation, and democratic Government. A Leap In the Dark. "It seems to lis that these arguments are greatly strengthened by tho fact that tho whole scheme bf National Prohibition is entirely experimental, in fact, it constitutes the most gigantic 'leap in the dark' that any community was ever called upon to make. No ono can possibly predict with any accuracy how the system woiild work or what effect it would have upon the country's industry and finance or even upon the social and personal habits of its people. You, sir, have of course considered carefully tho consequences that must arise from National Prohibition in regard to the country's Tevenue, and tho necessity that would bo thrown upon the Government to make good tho heavy losses entailed by tho disappearance of what has been so long regarded as an important sourco of public income.

A Heavy Responsibility. "Wo feel that in making this protest and submitting these arguments to your notico wo represent not only the views and interests of the Trade, but tlio sentiments of that large body of modcrato peoplo who stand midway between the two parties and under existing conditions have so little power or opportunity to make their voices heard. A heavy responsibility is thrown upon us, not" only to defend our own position, but to render articulate a largo mass of public opinion which, without some such means of expression, is likely to be overlooked by Parliament as completely as it is ignored and condemned by tho advocates of No-Li-cense. No Government can afford to consider only the representations of a 'liiall bodv of extremists and to pass bv unheeded' tho convictions and scruples and conscientious objections of the great mass of moderates who on all such (iiiestions make up the general body of tho community. To enforeo any kind of law dealing with tho regu r lation of nersonal conduct or social habits is always a most difficult task, and history teaches that, all sumptuary laws, enactments practically of tho soma cfyiraciM as Prohibitionist kw<-

lation, liavo always been a hopeless failure.

flimsy and Inadequate. "Though a great deal lias been said on both sides of tlio No-License question in Now Zealand, wo do not think that tlio people of this country yet realise how flimsy and inadequate the protest of the last demand of the Prohibition Party really arc. It seems to us unnecessary to emphasise the hollowness and futility of the plea that the bare majority or tlio fifty per cent, majority is 'more democratic than a three-fifths majority; tho absurdity of tlio claim put forward by tho No-Licenso Party that because they cannot secure what they want on terms at least moderately safe and advantageous to the country, therefore all safeguards shall ho repudiated and the security and tlio interest of the people jeopardised so that they may have their way; the certainty that tho adoption of the bare majority or even a small majority as the basis of NoLicense or Restoration would lead to inevitablo and disastrous insecurity in all the relations of public, political, and commercial life; tho heavy losses that would of necessity bo inflicted on tho State and on large numbers of tho peoplo by a reckless and precipitate adoption of the No-Licenso Party's programme; and finally, tho social and political dangers Involved in tlio compulsory subjection of a largo minority of tho peoplo to tho will of a relatively small body of enthusiasts in regard to their personal conduct and habits and tlio regulation of their social and domestic existence in direct opnosition to the traditional customs of the British race. . Of Vast Importance. "Tho vast importance of all siderations must be our excuse for approaching you, and w© are now satisfied to leave the matter for your further consideration, convinced as we are that you will deal with it in a manner consistent with the dignity of your high office and tho best traditions of our public 1 and political' life."

PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY. A GUARDED STATEMENT. The Prime Minister said that he was very glad to meet the deputationists, individually and collectively, and very pleased to have their representations 011 this very important question—a question of importance to the whole of tho community and of especial importance to that section of the community known as tho "Trade," inasmuch as they wero all interested financially and otherwise. Ho wanted to congratulate them on the very ablo and very painstaking fashion in which their view of the case had been stated by their spokesman, Mr. Beveridge. It went without saying that they had a perfect right to approach tho head of the Government for the time being, or any Minister of tho Crown, and 110 was very glad that they had taken an opportunity of doing so. Ho had received a large "number of deputations on the subject, commencing from a little.before that time last'year when a deputation from the "Trado" asked for ail alteration in tho way of putting the questions on tho voting papers. Sinco then ho had received numbers of deputations. To these deputations 110 had not been ablo to say positively whether or not legislation would bo introduced during tho present session). It would not be fair to his colleagues'if ho said so at, that moment, but ho would say that in case of legislation being introduced this session or next session it would not bo a party question. In the event of legislation being brought down, 110 pressure would bo brought to bear upon any member to induce him to vote in a particular direction. It would be for members to carry out tho pledges they had made. Tho Ministry would very soon.. make their decision public. They expected to finish the session by the end of November. If they decided to introduce licensing legislation their decision would bo known within a very few days. He understood from one of their number that he was not expected to make, a definite reply as to whether legislation would be introduced. Tho representations made to him through their spokesman, Mr. Beveridge, would bo conveyed to his colleagues, and would receive tho consideration to which they wore undoubtedly entitled.