DANGEROUS CARS.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1882, 16 October 1913, Page 4

DANGEROUS CARS.

SIDE-STEP CONDEMNED,

A HEATED DISCUSSION IN PARLIAMENT.

CITY COUNCIL CRITICISED.

LEGISLATION PROMISED.

Some very severe things were said about the Wellington City Council ,in the House of Representatives yesterday <iu tho acoro that it had unduly delayed m the conversion of side-step tramway cars to central passage typo. The whole of the afternoon was spent in discussing the matter aiid at 5.30 p.m. a motion was talked out, but the Minister of Public Works (the Hon. W. Frasor) had previously announced his intention of bringing down legislation very shortly to provide for the conversion of all wirs to central passage type, within a limited period.

The Hon. W. Frasor said that the previous day tho member for Christchurch East drew his attention to a regrettable accident to oho of the conductors of the Wellington trams. He had looked into tho inattor and ho wished to make a statement to tho House as to what would bo tho best thing to do under the circumstances. He had mot the Mayor of Wellington and certain of tho officers, of the Tramway Service the previous evening, and had obtained information from them, but unfortuu-' atel.y ho hnd been unable to get into touch with tho secretary of tho Tramways Union. In any case he thought it would bo best for the House to get information on this point at first hand, and he was going to ask leavo to set up a committee to' make an inquiry, and to report to tho House .in seven days. Select Committee Proposed. He would ask that ho bo allowed to move at once to Bet up this committor) so that there might bo no delay. Ho moved:

"That a Select Committee be appointed, consisting of seven mem- \ bers, to consider the best means of preventing a recurranco of tho lamentable accidents that havo occurred recently to conductors on clec-

trie tramways, the eommittco to

consist of Sir Walter Buchanan, Mr. Davov, Mr. Statham, Mr. Craigie, Mr. G, M. Thomson, Mr. Buxton, and tho mover."

( Tlio Minister continued that the committee could talio evidence from tramway authorities as to what tlioy were doing and could report to the Houso at first hand what the position was. There was to bo a conforcnco next week of various persons concerned with tramways, including employees. The conference would meet on October 23. The committee which ho was proposing to appoint w.is entirely irrespective of the conference. Still Hung Up. 1 Mr. T. 11. Davoy (Christchurch East) saicl that possibly tho method adopted by the Minister was tho best that ho could conceive. Tho only thing'that ho regretted was that tho whole matter was still hung up. Mr. Massey: For seven days. Mr. Davey said that in order to bring down a report of any valuo tho committee would havo to take evidence outside of Wellington. Mr. Frasor: It could got an extension.

Mr. Davey: It is the extension I am fearing. 1 don't/ want the extension. I don't suppose I will ever have tho honour of being a Minister of tho Crown, but if I wero I should insist that these cars' should bo converted at once, and the country would bo behind me." He added that tho necessary power could be taken in a short Bill. Mr. Eraser: It can't be done in a day. Mr. Davey said that tho appointment of the committee would put off the possibility of remedial legislation being introduced for at least three weeks or a month, and in the meantimo what would happen P Of necessity ho had to accept what tho Minister! proposed. He asked that the proceedings of tlw committoo should bo open to tho press, so that everyone in New Zealand might know how many accidents had occurred, and how many had been kept out of reports' by tho local bodies conccrned. Tho matter was essentially a public one. The Prime Minister said that so far as lie was personally concerned lie had not tho very slightest objection to tho 'press being present, sothat the utmost nubljcity should bo given to the proceedings of tho committee. At tho same time ho wanted to remind honourable members that the fact of tho press being present tended to lengthen proceedings. That had been his experience on every committee he had attended. Ho considered that the public should bo made awaro of the number of accidents that had taken place, and of the number of deaths that had occurred, but if the press were- admitted to tho committee inquiry ho did not think thero was any chance of a report being brought down within 21 days. An Amendment. Sir Joseph Ward (Leader of the Opposition) moved as an amendment: — "That in tho opinion of this House human life is of greater importance than the convenience of tho Wellington City Corporation, and that immediate steps should bo • taken to stop the use of all cars that are dangerous to human life." What did it mattor, ho asked, whether they stopped the whole of theso cars or not? A man liar 1 been killed, and what consideration had been given his wife and children? Hore was this Wellington City Corporation—he was not reflecting on them, but if Parliament had had_ its way two years ago tho whole business would have been stopped. Thoro was not a man who travelled on the side-step cars who did not know that they wore human deathtraps. Men had to walk along six-inch boards, with vehicles continually running against tho cars, and they had to do it in tho night-timo and in wet and stormy weather. Why should not tho cars bo stopped if necessary? Mr. Anderson: Why didn't you havo a go at it? Sir Joseph' Ward said ho bad supported tho alteration of tho ears when a number of members had opposed it. Mr. Anderson had, ho said, failed to support him. He hoped his motion was in order. All that a committee could do was to say that tho' cars should be altered. f 1

Mr. Frasor; You don't know what you are talking about. Sir Joseph Ward said that ho had often heard tlio_ 'honourable gentleman say the same thing before about things that ho now supported. Tho Minister should bring in legislation at onco. Ho could not- understand the existing condition being allowed to continuo. A Sense of Responsibility. Tho Hon. W. Frascr said that Sir Joseph Ward, in moving tho amendment, bad dono so without a sense of. lesponsibility. Sir Joseph Ward said that ho had not spoken without a souse of responsibility. Mr. Frasor said that Sir Joseph Ward had said that all the cars should bo altered at onco. Ho (the Ministor) had to think before ho acted, and had to consider what tho consequences would bo. Ho was informed that there were at present in Wellington 41 ears that had ccntr.il passages, and 47 that had not got them. If ho brought down logis-.

lation saying that these .sidestep cars must 110 longer bn iimiml, as the last speaker had suggoslr<l, and as had been suggested by Mr. Davy, 100 men would bo turned out of employment. .Sir Joseph Ward: Metier provido for them.

Mr. Eraser said that, ho had brought in his proposal to appoint a committee after consulting with tho secretary of tho Wellington Tramways Union. Helore tho committee the trnimvaymeu wotdd be able to 6ay whether they would rather loso their employment or go on under present circumstances until the cars could be altered.

Mr. Isitt: That is an immoral suggestion.

Mr. Frasor: The honourablo gentleman does not know what lie is talking about. It is an absolute fact, as I have stated, that these men must loso their employment if the use of the cars is prohibited. Who is going to pay them? Mr. Isitt: The borough council. Mr. Eraser: Certainly not. I can't call upon them to do it and you can't. The hon. gentleman was simply intent upon scoring a point against a political opponent. In moving to sot up a committee ho (tho Minister) had been actuated by a desire to give tho House tho information to which it was 011titlcd. A Serious Accusation. Tho amendment proposed by the Loader of the Opposition, the Minister went on to remark, was tanthmopnt to saying that he was careloss of human life. Sir Joseph W r ard: I say that sending it to a committee will cause delay. Mr. Fraser: You say I am careless of human life? Sir Joseph Ward: No, I don't. Mr. Massey: That is tho insinuation. -Mr. Frasor: Yes, that is tho insinuation. Only 0110 result could follow, ho added, if legislation were passed tomorrow prohibiting tho uso of these cars —nearly ono hundred men would be turned out of their employment. Sir Joseph Ward: How long does it take to convert a car? Mr. Fraser said that the Wellington City authorities reported to him that it was impossible to convert moro than tlireo palace cars.por month. These cars required to be entirely reconstructed, and tho work could not well bo done outside tho city workshops because of tho electrical appliances. It was his firm belief that the whole of tho evidenco roquircd could bo got in two days. Tho House Should Act. Mr. J. A. Hauan said lie thought tho House was in possession of sufficient information to snow that tho running of these cars was dangerous to life and limb. In view of this, the House should act. What further evidence could bo got from tho committee? The committeo could only ascertain facts already known. W r hy should tho Houso trifle with a matter of lifo and death by referring it to a committee? Tho committeo might learn that certain men were willing to take risks rather than loso their pay, but it must bo for tho Houso to say that theso men should not bo allowed to take risks. Party Issue Raised. The Hon. W. F. Massey said ho regretted that a party issue was being raised in connection with this matter. Ho excepted Mr. Davey from blame because Mr. Davey had for a very long time boon exceedingly anxious that theso cars should bo made safe. The Minister of Public Works had been anxious to meet tho difficulty that had arisen. Ho had given a very great deal of care aud attention to the trouble, and to the number of accident occurring, ospocially in Wellington. Ho had conferred with the tramway men and eome to the conclusion that the proper thing to do was to set up a committee to report to the House in seven days. Of course there was 110 reason that tho committee should take 7 days; thcro was 110 reason why the report should not bo presented next Tuesday. Ho (Mr. Massey) believed this could bo done, but in view of tho ndverse amendment moved 110 would say now that tho proper thing for the Minister of Public Works to do was to withdraw his motion and allow the amendment to be carried, and place tho responsibility on the Leader of tho Opposition. He would suggest t;> tho Minister to allow tho motion of tho Leader of tho Opposition to be carried, and to allow tho Loader of tho Opposition to take tho responsibility. Mr. G. Witty said tho question was not raised as a party issue. Tho Minister of Public Works had had two years in which to act, and ho had done nothing.

Mr. J l 'r as or: I liavn done moro than your people ever did.

Mr. Witty said that there had novel' boon tho accidents before that thore had been during the last two years. Ho urged that tho Houso should insist upon the more speedy conversion of tho cars in accordance with tho Davey Clause, and that tho setting up of a committoo was a mere wasto of time. Let tho Minister bring down his Bill and do something. Tho trams in Wellington and Christchurch wore dangerous, and they had no right to allow those cars to go 011 running to maim and kill people. He repudiated tho suggestion that it was a party cry. Whole Thing a Farce. Mr. 6. J. Anderson said he had locked up tho division list and found that ho had supported Mr. Davey in his motion two years ago. The corporation of A\ r ollington were, ho thought, deserving of sovero consuro for their failure to give effect to the wishes of Parliament. Ho had travelled 011 a tram from Lyall Bay on Sunday—one of tho converted cars. There was a passage down the centre which was not largo enough to allow the passage of a decent sized man. Tho tram was full of people, and the two conductors who wore 011 tho car had to walk along the footboard to collect fares. The whole thing was a farce. Tho city of AVellington should have notice to convert tho cars forthwith. It was over two years since they had first had warning from Parliament, and thore had been fatal accidents before that. If tho City Council had made a bungle tlioy would have to remedy it. Human life must not bo sacrificed as it was being sacrificed. Mr. Isitt said he did not say that the Minister of Public AVorks was careless of human life. On the contrary, Mr. Fraser was a philanthropic mail", but lie was apparently paying too much attention to tho protests of thoso in opposition to the reform, who.regarded finance as more important than human life. Otherwise 110 would accept the amendment. Mr. Fraser: I am thinking of the employees.' Mr. Massey: Let it go.

Mr. Isitt said the corporation bad told the committee mad stories about the cost of converting the cars, and about tho length of timo it would take. Too long they had taken up the position that they would do nothing they wero not compelled to do. It was an immoral suggestion that tho House or the committee should go to these tram-way-won who had wives and families dependent unon them, and sav to them, "We'll give you your optionyon can go without your wages or face this risk." If it was truo that there was so littlo of the spirit of philanthropy in the citizens of Wellington that the City Council would not have their support in paying the wages to these men when out of employment while ears wero being converted, then the House ought to take the matter no. Tho time for hesitation had gono. He did not boliovo the. committee could do anv good, and he urged the Houso should take prompt action. Mr. J. H. Brndiiev asked whether tho motion would refer to the wliolo Dominion. A Class House—and a Stone. Mr. A. H. Hiiidmarsh said peoplo in glass houses should not tluow_

stones. Mr. Isitt was in a senso a director of the Now Zealand iiailwuyK, and almost every day one picked up a paper, one road of the death of a shunter. There were far too many deaths of shunters.

Mr. Wilson: Stop the trains. Mr. Hindmarsh said that there was not sufficient proteciion also for men working on the Wellington wharves. He did not contend, however, that the City Council were not to blame, hut they were confronted with a very serious difficulty. If they withdrew the ears they would not be able to cope with the traffic. He believed there were 27 cars still to be converted, and tlie.se cars would be converted in ten months, or perhaps in a shorter time. Ho thought this time was too long, but he did object to "this cheap way of yetting: a certain amount of glory in tlm country, particularly when it comes from a set of men who are moro guilty than the Wellington City Council." The City Council liacl recognised tho difficulty, and coped with it, whereas nothing had been done to protect shunters. Why should not something be done "to put an end to these shambles in the New Zealand Railways," and to protect tho lives of men on wharves? Tho reason why the City Council did not go faster was that they were afraid to disorganise traffic. Tho Minister's Powers. Mr. A. E. Glover (Auckland Central) said that in 1910 evidence was taken from every part of the Dominion in regard to running' the tramways. Tho Brooklyn accident gave riso to tho inquiry. As an outeomo certain powers were taken away from corporations. Ho contended that tho Minister had amplo powors to safeguard tho interests of tho public. Mr. J. l'ayne (Grey Lynn) suggested that a way out of tho difficulty that existed in Wellington would bo found if instructions were issued that no fares should bo collected on side-step ears while thov wero in motion. This would provido for tho safety of conductors until tho cars had been converted. Passengers could pay their fares 011 entering or leaving tho car, or, if necessary, the cars could bo stopped until fares had been taken. Mr. C. A..'Wilkinson (Egmont) commended the "mv as you enter" system, which dhtaiiis in America, and suggested that its adoption should ho insisted upon in this country. There should bo no delay in altering tho sidestep cars, but ho considered that tho Minister's proposal to set up a committeo was reasonable, and should bo supported. Tho Rate of Conversion. Mr. H. G. Ell (Ohristchurch South) said it was absurd to say that only three cars per month could bo eonverted. Mr. Frasor: I did not say so.' Mr. Ell said that tho Wellington Corporation should put 011 a double shift. It had been careless and dilatory iii this matter. Steps should be taken also to see that the central passages in existing cars wero kept clear and that conductors were not forced out on to the side-steps.

Mr. J. S. Dickson (Parnell) said that tho man who was responsible for tho existence of these cars was the Inspector of Public Works. His recollection was that the Wellington Citv Council delegates stated, at the last tramways Conference, that thoy could convert ten cars a month. Ho pointed out that tho "pay-as-you-onter" method could not ho adopted whero a system of sections was in vogue. 1 Mr. Fraser said that tho Government only ; had power to refuse to license new cars.

Mr. Dickson: You have power to condemn existing cars. M[r. Eraser: No, we have not. Mr. H. Atmoro (Nelson) said .that it would fie a- fair thing that if tramwaymen lost employment tho Wellington Corporation should bear the expense. Mr. Eraser: They have not broken tho law. • .

Mr. Atmore snid that if tho Minister had not power to compel alteration of theso cars hp should seektliat power at once. No personal criticism' was being directed at tho Minister, who had tho respect of every man in the House, but he (Mr. Atmore) suggested that the motion to appoint a committee should bo withdrawn nnd tho nmcndnioii't iflovcd by the Leader of tho Opposition adopted in its place. The Corporation Accused. Mr. Davoy repeated a statement ho had previously made that the Minister had been misinformed as to the progress made with tlie conversion of cars in Wellington. The Minister had been told three weeks ago that there were 14 combination cars which could be converted in a ncriod of seven or eight weeks. Now "tho Wellington city officials told him that tliey could convert only three a month. Mr. Frnscr: No, different cars altogether, Ho added that in speaking of three oer month he bad referred only to palace" cars. The others wore nearly all finished. Those that remained would bo finished by the end of November. Mr. Davev said that he was prepared to prove ; what, he had .stated three weeks ago —that at that time only six ears had boon converted by the AVcllinrrtfon City Council. Mr. Fraser: There are 17 done now. Mr. Davey said that tho city authorities bad counted in the- ears with centre aisles whicli they possessed before tho alterations began.

Mr. Fraser said that there wore at present ji cars with centre passagos. " Broken Faith." Mr. Davey asked whether the AVelliugton City Council had kept faith in regard to the conversion of tho cars. Mr. Fraser: No, they havo not. Mr. Davey: I said tliat some time ago, and I believe tliey will fail again to keep faith with you. Ho added tliat tho Wellington City Engineer had said tiiat it would cost £-100 011 an average to convert a car. 11l Christchurch tho engineers had estimated tho average cost at £10, and in Duncdin the estimato was £35. Ho would vote for t'lio amendment moved by tho Leader of the Opposition. It was absolutely necessary tliat tho City authorities in AVellingtoii and Christchurch .should be told tliat tliey must convert those cars aB soon as possible. Air. Fraser: Fix a time. Mr. Davev: I should like to ask the Minister if lie will accopt tho idea, and if Sir Joseph AVard would withdraw his amendment. Mr. Frasor said that in bringing down this motion for a committee he had thought that 110 was submitting a practical method by which tho Houso might arrive at a satisfactory resolution. He assured tho honourable gentleman that there was 110 nower in tho Act to compel local authorities to alter ! a silicic car, although the Act did give I tho Minister power to refuse to liccnso now cars. ,

Mr. Davey: I have nover argued otherwise.

Mr. Massc.v: What do you expect us to do?

Mr. T)avey: I say this House can do aiivthiurr.

Mr. 'Fraser said that if members wanted legislation prohibiting tho uso of ceiitro-passaao ears after a certain time he was with them. All he wanted to point out to the House was that the missing of such legislation would entail turning certain men out of employment. It had to bo decided what was a reasonable time to allow for the alteration of tho 47 side-step cars that remained in uso in Wellington.' He would bring down a Hill granting whatever time the House thought proper, and would then be in a position to speak to the lornj bodies. • Mr. Davey: Would six months be a fair time? , Mr. Massoy: Too long. Mr. Fraser: I will withdraw my motion if tho Leador of tho Opposition will withdraw his amendment. I

Sir .Joseph Ward: 1 won't withdraw mine.

Mr. Eraser: Oh, very well, lie added that lie hail not considered the matter on any personal ground. Some informal lallc followed as to the iinie to be allowed for the conversion ol cars. Three months and lour months were mentioned. Suggested Legislation. Air. Eraser: 1 would not give, them four months to do nothing. Then.' must bo so much a month done. (Hear, hear.) This, he pointed out, would progressively minimise tho risk. Kinally tho Minister said that he would withdraw his motion and allow the Loader of tho Opposition to move his.

Tho motion was withdrawn by unanimous consent and 011 the question being raised, the Speaker ruled that as the motion had been withdrawn tho amendment must go with it.

Sir Joseph Ward protested and submitted that tho House ought to go back to the original position (before tho amendment was withdrawn). He contended that when the motion was with-

drawn tho amendment became the substantive motion. Sir, Joseph Ward and other Opposition members said thoy would liavo opposed tho withdrawal of the motion rather than let tho amendment bo excluded. The Speaker said that, in giving his decision, he had overlooked a ruling in "May" that an original motion could not bo withdrawn until an amendment had boon withdrawn or agreed to. He ruled, therefore, that tho ainondmont must bo disposed of before tho motion was withdrawn. Mr. Herries suggested that if tho amendment wero revived tho original motion must also bo revived. Mr. Wilford submitted that tho proper course; was to deal first with tho amendmont. Subsequently, after much moro discussion and citation of authorities, Sir Josoph Ward was allowed to move his motion with the consent of tho House. An Amendment Moved.. The Hon. W. F. Massey said it seemed to him thoy were wasting unnecessarily a very great deal of time over a question about which there was very little difference of opinion. So far as tho saloty of tho men and the public was concorned ho did not think there was any difforenco among members of tho Houso. Thoy were all anxious to do all that was possible to make tho cars safe for the men employed 011 them. But tho Minister of Public Works had made a statement that ho would givo tho Houso an early opportunity, almost at onco —he was not suro whotlior the Minister intended to bring down a Pill that day—of placing legislation 011 the Statute Book which would compel the corporations of Wellington and Christ-church cither to lay the dangerous cars up or make them safei Six nion tlis had been suggested as a sufficient time, and three months had also been suggested, 110 was not quite sure which was tho right term. If it ivas possiblo to have tho work dono in tlireo months, by working double shifts and overtime, then it should be done in that time. The cars should bo put right at tho earliest possiblo moment. Ho proposed to move tho following amendment to Sir Josoph Ward's motion: "That in tho opinion of this Houso legislation should at onco bo introduced empowering tho Government to condemn, or causo tho alteration within six months of such cars as have footboards dangerous to lifo."

Mr. T. H. Davey said ho had drawn an amendment which he would suggest to tho Minister: "That in view of tho largo number of accidents, many, proving fatal, which have resulted from tho use of footboards 011 tramway carriages, this Houso is of opinion that such carriages should be provided with a passageway from end to end of tho cars within a period of six months from date, and that the Government bo strongly; urged to introduce legislation to givo effect to this resolution."

Tho l'rinio Minister said 110 would have very much pleasure in withdrawing his amendment, in favour of Mr. Davey's, and Mr. Davey at once moved his amendment. A Plot Alleged.

Sir Joseph Ward said ho would slipport Mr. Davoy's amendment, but he was sorry Mr. Davey had moved it. He accused the Prime Minister of having moved his amendment after consultation with Mr. Davcy in order to circumvent his (Sir Joseph Ward's) motion. Mr. Davoy denied that anything of the sort hail happonod. He said that the Prime Minister had not soon his motion, which had boon written somo time.

Sir Joseph Ward persisted that tho Prime Minister had moved bis amendment with tho object of preventing his (Sir Joseph Ward's) motion from being put. Why that should lie necessary ho did not know.

Mr. Massey: Was not that what you intended in regard to tho Minister of Public Works?

Mi\ Fisher (to Sir Joseph Ward) : You are responsible for the whole position—tho position of the law. Sir Joseph Ward maintained that ho had supported the proposal to havo tho ears altered.

Mr. Fisher: No, Hansard is against you in that. Sir Joseph Ward said there had been plenty of time since then for tho tramcars to bo put into proper condition, and in accordance with the decision of tho House they should have beon. Mr. Fraser: You couldn't enforce it. There was 110 law. Sir Joseph AVard insisted that there had been too long delay. Who Was to Blame? Tho Hon. F. M. B. Fisher said 110 wished to point out to the Leader of the Opposition thai whilst ho bad moved an amendment with the object of cornering the Government, and fixing upon them the blamo for tho present state of things, it was tho honourablo gentleman himself, who, with tho member for Hutt, was responsible for the existing condition of affairs. If tho Hon. R, M'Kcnzie, then Minister of Publio AVorks, had been allowed to put his Hill through in 1911 as 110 introduced it, no such condition of things as tliat now existing could have arisen. The Bill went through Committee, but when tli'o report was under consideration the member for Hutt suggested that tho Bill bo recommitted for reconsideration of clause S. Sir Joseph AVard said "I havo 110 objection to that, to facilitate business.'' '

Sir Joseph AVard: To facilitate business. That was tho reason.

Mr. Fisher: It doesn't matter what the reason was; tho fact is tliat it was done.

Sir Joseph-Ward: You can't put 1110 in that position.

Mr. Fisher: Tliero is no need for mo to put you into it. You arc in it. Tlio honourable) gentleman, ho continued, had allowed a proviso to bo inserted in the clause to make it apply only to new cars. In the division on that clauso tlio honourable gentleman did not vote, lie walked out of the Chamber.

Sir Joseph Ward protested that this was not a fair statement of tho caso. Ho had 110 avoided the division.

Mr. Fisher said tlio facts were that tho honourable gentleman agreed to have tlio clause recommitted, and when the member for tliitt moved to insert tho. damaging words, he walked out of tho Chamber.

Sir Joseph Ward: That is contrary to the fact.

Mr. Fisher went on to tell how tho 11, ember for Mutt, then Mayor of Wellington, had declared to the House that if the clause were tarried in its original form it would spell ruination to the City. After tho amendment was agreed to Mr. Wilford claimed to liavo saved tlio City £25,000. The amendment bad not saved tlio City 20,000 hall-pence. Tho division on the amendment was a very curious ono. It was carried by. 32 votes to 27, and of tho 32 tliore wero

10 from either side of tlio House. It was curious, too, that most of tho Lahour members in the House voted for the. amendment. If that amendment had heen defeated all theso accidents would never 'have happened. His own opinion was that the Wellington City Council had misled tho-.House at tho time, and had over since tho Act was passed deliberately misled tho Public Works Department. And if tilings wore left in their present position the City Oottncjl would go on ignoring the law, and the same debate might occur again in three years. The Council •could havo got over the difficulty about tho conversion- of tho cars if they had wished, and he thought tho Minister of Public Works would bo wiso to introdnco legislation which would compel tho City Council to do this work. But tho fatal blot on tho Bill' and tho causo of all tho trouble was tho result of Sir Joseph Ward's motion to recommit tho Bill. Replies to Mr. Fisher. Sir Joseph Ward said ho had not walked out of tjio House, as had been stated, when the division was taken. Ho had been absent to hear a deputation, ho explained. On every division taken on tho proposal that an interior passage he made in tho centre of all trams he had supported tho proposal, having always been on the side of protecting the lives of the men.

Tho Hon. R. M'Kenzie said ho had had a good deal of troublo in getting tramway regulations through tho House, but he felt sure the tramwaymen woro well enough satisfied with the law as it existed.

Mr. T. M. Wilford replied' to some statements made by Mr. Fisher. That lionourablo gentleman had stated, incorrectly, that Sjr Joseph Ward had bolted from a division. He (Mr. Wilford) luid had' a good deal to do with preventing tho passage of tho Bill two years ago.

Mr. Fisher: You misled tho whole House.

Mr. Wilton] denied that he had done this. He attempted to relato what had occurred oil another division, to show that Mr. Fisher had on' one occasion failed to record his vote, hut ho was called to order. •

Mr. Wilford went on to speak in reply to tho statement that lie had misled tho House as to the cost of making the alterations to the cars. Ho had quoted tho cost at £400 per car, hut tho figures ho used were supnlind to him by Mr. Richardson, the Electrical Engineor for tlTo city. The seat of the trouble was that the Wellington cars were wrongly constructed from tho beginning.

Speeding Up the Cause. Dr. A. K. Newman said that in tho earlier days of tho trams thore were hardly any accidents and' tho enrriages were not considered unsafe. Tho only cause for the numerous accidents lately that ho could assign was that tho cars had been speeded up recently, and were run much faster than formerly. His own opinion was that tho timo had come —in fact, it had como a year ago— when all tho cars should bo converted. Tho Minister, he believed, would have had tho approval of tho House if he had given notice at onco of a Bill to compcl tho council to do this at once. It was ridiculous for tho corporation of Wellington to say that they could alter these carriages only at tho rata of three a month. Ho was very sorry for the city that it should bo necessary to compei the city to make the cliango, but the House could not tolerate tho number of accidents that had been occurring lately. Mr. G. J. Anderson said that the result of tho recommittal of tho Bill in 1911 at tho instance of Mr. Wilford had boon several deaths. I

Talked Out. At 5.30' p.m. tho Hon. D. Buddo was speaking, and of course the motion could not be put, lapsing in accordance with tho Standing Orders. After Mr. Speaker had announced the adjournment, • Mr. Massc.v said, looking towards the Opposition benches: "You've talked it out."