THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1881, 15 October 1913, Page 4

THE HOUSE.

' . ... _. I The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. Th'o Hon. Dr.- POMAEE 'gave notice of his intention to introduce the C'ook Island .Government Amendment Bill cm i next: sitting ; day.' , NAVAL POLICY AND BILLS. ' INFORMATION SOUGHT.:, , SIR. JOSEPII. WARD 'inquired when the ' Prime-Minister ■ would' be able 'to announce tho naval policy proposals of the Government. These were of oxtreme importance, and .the Wliole country was ' anxious to know /what decision had been arrived at in connection with the negotiations with tho Imperial Government. Also lie would like to know when tho I Electoral Bill .. would bo circulated. Further, when could thoy expect - tho> Customs jjanff; (Laughter from Mr. Mas3ey.) Also"; when would the Public Works ready to conic . down. The;fact;of 'Monday having been taken away by the Government was in- 1 dicative of the approaching end of the session. All the members were anxious to get home about the middle, or end, of . November., and; naturally they were' anxious to, havo 1 . these matters brought before them "fo?" their consideration.'" l ■ PRIME MINISTER 1 IN REPLY. THE NAvA SITUATION. > The if RIME' MINISTOR said that the right "honourable gentleman in asking I ' the question had used the word proposals.;; "Now I am not quite certain," he continued., "that Jhere,'will ..be any . we can 1 do is' to; expwm 'ths 'naval position, from tho pdint of view of New Zealand'up to the present;- ;I had ..hoped to be ablo to do lit this week. I am not able to do it this week, owing to the fact.that'.the week-end was occupied '■.bV-tliof-discns-sion', shall we call iti-tha't. took place-on tho' Land Bill." He-- would look into the whole position;-.'fronv. tho time the 1909 agreement was 1 arrived at and explain the whole of 'tlio negotiations, or rather correspoiulencciVthat .'had taken plate bQtween tho NpjW Zealand Govern-; merit and tho Imperial Government regarding the naval position in New Zealand. He would explain exactly)what the New Zealand Government proposed. All that lie could do wii&'to tell the result of tho negotiations :. up to ; the present. . ... i, ' .■ Sir J. Ward Will J;he honourable gentleman fl'ubriiit'the"proposals brought out" froiu.v England;'jiy,,.tho' Minister 'of Defence,?;;;-';.::.- .) .. ■ , The Prime Minister said, that lie would-j do .so asT'fiUv as -Jpossibld.'.' A' c'ertaiiii amduut of :;- correspondence., connected with -naval: matters,; was;always confidential. that was not confidential he, wfiiikl !gla'dly'laV bifore .the House. . ... Tho Customs Tariff.. , 1 As to Customs, tho honourable gentleman must not' run, away with'the-idea that tho Government was going in for a re.visi6n of the whole tariff. Thero would be a readjustment to a certain extent. Tho Bill had iiot yet been prepared. As soon as the Land Bill had ■ been dealt with the Government would be able to go on with other business. ' All .that ho could say was that the Customs Bill would bo gone on with, and that it would be laid before Parliament it an early date. The Elootoral Bill. An Electoral Bill Was in preparation, . and would bo laid before tho House during the present session. Sir J. Ward; -Don't keep it too late. " Tho Prime Minister said that he had no intention of doing so. The Bill wouldbe introduced in good time. Sir J.'Ward: Does it propose to repeal the second ballot? The Prime Minister:. It proposes to repeal the second ballot. 'Sir J. Ward: What does it substitute? (Laughter.) * The Prime Minister: That is another "question. . 'Mr. Hnssell: Not dccided yet? ,;The Prime Minister said that the honourable gentleman must exorcise a little patience. He could only repeat what he had said on a former occasion, and ask him to wait and see. , The Public Works Statement and Estimates were approaching completion, and tho Minister of Public Works hoped soon to he in a position to submit them to-Parliament. -

THE LANp BILL. SMOOTH PROGRESS IN COMMITTEE. MORTCACE SECURITY. Tho House went into Committee on the Land Laws Amendment Bill at 2.4 a p.m. Thirteen clauses of the Bill and a number of now clauscs remained to be considered. ' _ Mr. J. H. Escott (Pahiatua) moved tu amend Clause 41. As drafted; it provided that lauds acquired under power of a mortgage by a mortgagee sliould not become, subject to the limitation provisions of the Land Act for a period ot two years. Mr. Kscott proposed that tbe period ,of graco should be five years. As a safeguard ho proposed that the Minister of Lands should have power at any time to purchase land acquired by a'mortgagee on giving tlii;eo months' notice, tho purchase pi'icc to be tho principal and interest of the mortgage and costs incurred by the mortgagee in connection with the acquisition of the land. • Tho Hon. D. Buddo said that while the clauso at first sight seemed to havo something to commend it, ho believed that its ultimate effect would be to encourage aggregation in spite of tho limitation clauses. He would therefore oppose the clause.' Mr. G. W. Forbes considered that two years, as proposed by the Ministor, was quite an amplo concession to lending companies taking over lands. The five years term would encourage aggregation, and he hoped the Minister would not acccpt tho proposal. Mr. G. Witty considered that one yc-ar would be quite sufficient. Mr. W. H. D. Bell said they had to .encourage these lending companies if tbey wanted to assist settlement and development. The State could not- borrow enough money for all purposes, and unless these companies received sufficient encouragement and wero allowed ample time in which to realise on securities they would not bother about making loans, to small holders. While there was tho. possibility of aggregation occurring,; he believed that in practice it that the aggrcpajion would:?be""so~?slow as/";t<^f.make: : -ift'-.'iiot worth whilo for tho companies to bother working to that end. The Hon. W. F. Massey said/hp -regretted./.that .ho could not accept, the five years amendment. It might be that two years was too short a "time. He was not prepared to say with as-, suranco that it was sufficiently long, in view of the possibility of a depression coming along, but to make the term five years would be going to the-other extreme. Not Sufficient Security. Mr. H. J. H. Okey suggested : that the term be three years, urging that two years was such a short term that it would reduce the amount, of money tlieso companies would be ready to lend. The Hon. W. F. Massey said he might as well tell honourable members that the reason why tho clause .was put into "tho' Bill was that lie had been.approached by various lending institutions, who had pointed out to him that in consequence of the reduced security owing to last year's Act, tho rates of interest were higher, to settlers. If it were shown to him that two years was too short a term of grace ho was willinir to'accept three years, but ho would not go beyond that. There must bo limitation. . Mr. _W r . D. S. Mac Donald said he had had fourteen years' experience managing estates for mortgage companies, and that experience had convinced linn that mortgage companies ought to-be •required to quit lands as soon as possible. Estates which they held were usually allowed to go to rack alul ruin. Mr. D. Buick favoured tho retention of the-two-years' term. Mr. C. .A. Wilkinson supported the three years' proposal. ; , It was impossible for the State, to h6 the sole moneylender to settlers, and, in'view of this, financial institutions should be oncouraged to lend money. But if the security' for loans were reduced, as they might be by such_ a short term, they would probably raise the rate of interest. The Hon. W. F. Massey suggested that a year's trial be given: to the presort clause, and if it was found at the end of that time that hardships wero imposed on settlers becnuse of it, be Would extend the" term in his consolidating Bill of next year. ,;.".Mr.' 6. W. Russell • supported the •Prime Minister in this proposal. Tlwclause w;as "agreed to on the voices! Reading for Settlers. ; Clause 44, constituting special districts for xoading purposes in places whore there-were Crown lands subdivided, and providing that revenues derived from lands in a special district may bo applied towards the construction of roads in tho district was briefly discussed. The Prime Minister pointed out that as a.gcneral rule tho moneys would be.handed over to the local bodies in the district to bo expended, but the Government would, under tho clause, take authority to spend tho money, if necessary, for, unfortunately, the local bodies had not always done justice to the remote settlers. Tho clause was agreed to. Sheep Runs. . There was more discussion on Clauso 45, providing that when on tho expiry of a pastoral license a run was subdivided, the outgoing lessee should have the right to select one of tho areas. Members- of the Oppositipn raised tho general ■■ question of (lumm.vism. alleging that there wore instances of a man holding more than one run, usually by taking up a second run in tho name of other members of- his family. Generally they urged that thero should be some more stringent residence, provisions in ruspcct of those runs not situated at a very high altitude. Mr. Massey said that although instances of dummyism had no doubt occurred bofore he took office, he had never given authority for one man to hold more, than one run. Those members who had experience of high sheen country spoke of the danger of .subdivision of such country into too small areas, pointing out that sheep-raising in snow country, was really a speculative venture, involving occasional losses that no man of

moderate means could survive. The clause was carried. Clause 40, providing that the holders of pastoral runs shall on the expiry ol their licenses be given compensation for permanent improvements, was accepted by the Committee without much discussion. The next clause, the object of which was to give creator'security of tciruro to pastoral licenses, was discussed at greater length. The proposal iu the clause was that at the expiry of the license the licensee should lio entitled to receive it new license of the run at a rent to bo lixed by the board, for a similar term to that of the expired license. It was urged by the Primo Minister in support of tho clause that the effect of the insecure tenure 011 which these lands lmd been held had been to reduce their carrying capacity enormously. Excessive burning, the spread of rabbits, and overstocking had destroyed the native grasses, and it was partly owing to the desire of tho tenant to reduce his run to tho poorest possible state at the end of his term, in order that he could get it for another term ' without keen competition, that the runs had been allowed to deteriorate. But for this insecurity of tenure and tho deterioration following upon it, tho runs, he believed, would have been carrying millions moro sheep. An amendment moved by Mr. Sidey to provide that the clause should not apply to licenses granted before the passing of tho Act was defeated by '13 votes to 18. ' . , 11 Objection to what they termed a perpetual right of renewal" was raised bv Mr. G. W. Russell and Mr. H. 0. Ell, who both urged that these runs ought to bo hvuch more closely inspected than they were now. By this means tho wilful destruction of pastures by burning and overstocking could lie prevented, and the interests of tho State coulii be protected. . '• Mr. E. P. "Leo moved an amendment with tho object of ensuring that a licensee should, on the expiry of his first term, have a Tight of renewal for a, second term of '21 years, hut not for a third term. Tho Stato's Real Interests. Mr. Mac' Donald: Is the Prime Minister accepting tho clause? Mr. Massey: The principle of tho clause, certainly. Mr. Mac Donald objected to the proviso proposed in tho amendment. Ho thought it was timo members of the House realised that .there wero classes of land iu the country which would not bo taken up unless every possible inducement was given to settlers. (Hear, hear, from Government members.) Ho thought more inducements than those proposed would have to bo given, and lie urged that a lessee ought to havo a right of renewal after 42 years. Mr. G. J". Anderson opposed the amendment also. Tho object of tho Government should be to put peoplo into tho mountain country who would stay there, whose sons would follow them there, so that thero should bo a population there for all time. What would the country gain by putting A out and B in, especially if A knew the land and tho life, wliilo B did not? Mr. F. H. Smith also opposed the proviso. It was not' settling tho land to put one man off it and another man on. It was said that the Crown might get a higher rent by the change, but tho man who was on the .land and know it, who had his Hock there, and who know the climatic conditions, would bo better ablo to pay a higher rent than a newcomer. lie also objected to runs being put up to auction. Mr. G. Lauronson wanted to know whether tho House was legislating for the man 011 pastoral runs or for tho State as a whole. Tho point of view of tho last speakers had been that of the men 011 pastoral country. Mr. XosworthV''aUo..'obiect(id ! ,td. i a'iii ; T tion, the effect of which was often to force up rents to such a height 'that the iiccnsces could not . make a living, and tho runs wore allowed to 'depreciate. Fencing was allowed to go unrepaired, and pasture was-destroyed by injudicious burning. Replying to Mr. Laurenson 110 said'that it was in the best interests of the State to have men 011 the land who had security of tenure, and who \vould work tho land to best advantage. ; Mr. J. G. Cosites /said he would favour fTTo amendment, because 110 believed that in 42 years or in much less time all theso runs would bo subdivided. The Hon. W. F. Massey said that he agreed with tho member for Kaipara that long before 42 years every one of theso mils would bo subdivided. Ho did'not think tho point was worth discussing, and 110 was prepared to take tho voice of tho Committeo upon it. In reply to those memb'ers who had urged that tho tenants' interest ought to be further protected than the fortytwo years' term would allow, he pointed out that compensation would be given to tenants for improvements. A provision was being' mado for this- which had never been given beforo. A Universal Panacea. Mr. G. AV. Russell (Avon) said that some honourable members seemed satisfied with the mero montion of arbitration, and to regard it as a universal panacea. His experience was that when tho State went to arbitration it was generally, beaten by a private person. Under tho proposal beforo the House to increase the term of the pastoral leases by 21 years, somo owners would be enabled to sell out at a large profit, but the runs so sold would be very dear to all who had to occupy thorn in future. Ho considered that whore tho. goodwill of a. pastoral lease was disposed of at a profit tho amount ot tho consideration should be subject to review by tho State, and tho transaction should bo subject to approval. ■ Mr. Massey: That is the law now. I have refused several. Mr. Russell said that it also seemed to him that whero such a transaction took place tho State should share in thei profit accruing to the ougoing tenant. ■Sir Walter Buchanan suggested that the last speaker had taken a wrong view of tho position. Ho failed to seo where the added value of which Mr. Russell had spoken was to come from, and 011 what grounds. There was no reason to believe that land values would increase in the future in a ratio equivalent to that of tho increaso that had taken placo .•during recent years. Tho Hon. W. F. Massey said in reply to a question that the Crown had power to resumo a run at the end of any term of 21 years for the purpose of subdividing. Tho amendment was defeated 011 tho voices. . , Mr. G. AVitty (Riccarton) contended that the whole clauso should bo rejected 011 tho ground that it involved giving .too many concessions to individuals. Tho Primo Minister said that none of tho runs had been held back to benefit tho licensee. A number of the runs had been held back because it was thought that they might be fit for subdivision. If they were fit for subdivision they would be subdivided. Tho Covernor-ln-Counoll. Mr. Ij. M. Isitt (Christchurcli, North) asked why the clause contained tho term "Governor" instead of "Governor-m-Couneil." Mr. Massey: Same tiling. Mr. Isitt: Oil, 110, pardon met The Governor-in-Couiicil is one thing and tlie Governor in "confab" with one Minister is another. Returning to tho topic, Mr. Isitt said "Govcruor-in-Conneil" meant the Cabinet. (liaughter.) . Sir J. Ward said that where the Governor was mentioned in an Act an individual Minister could send along papers for signature. Whero the words "Goveriior-in-Couuoil" wero used the papers always came back to tho Prime Minister on behalf of the whole of the Ministers. The Prime Minister said that there was a great difference between tho Executiv9 Council, which was presided

over always by tho Governor or his deputy, and the Cabinet, which was an assemblage of Ministers. A division was taken upon Clanso 47 at 8.35 p.m., and it was carried by 47 votes to 18. THE FREEHOLD AGAIN. FOR SETTLEMENT LANDS. Clause\Jß proposed to permit the owners of lease-in-perpetuuy of settlement lands to purchase the fee-simple. Mr. G. Witty, for Mr. I{. M'Callum, moved an amendment to make tho clause apply only to l.i.p. tenures, granted m tho future. Tho Hon. W. I l '. Massey said that tho amendment, if adopted,' v:ould kill the clause, because there would be 110 leaso in perpetuity in future. That tenure was dead. Mr. "Witty agreed to tako the amendment 011 tlie voices, and it was defeated. Sir. P. C. "Webb repeated his protest against "bartering tho heritage of the people," in tho well-worn phrases used so irequcntly during the recent obstruction to Clause '25. Mr. E. Newman reminded the Houso that tho, clauso proposed to givo tenants of settlement lands the same right given to other Crown tenants, and he hoped opponents of the clause would follow tho course they followed last year —to enter their protest and let the clauso go to tho vote. Ho said 110 had every sympathy with those members of tho Houso who believed iu tho leasehold tenure. But it must bo apparent that tho Government, with their largo majority on the land question, supported Hi they wore by tho Opposition, must in tho end put tho clauso through. Mr. 11. Atmoro said 110 could not fellow the member for Grey in his reasoning when ho attributed much of the poverty in New Zealand to the fact that tho Government had parted with tho land. But who were the Government? They were the representatives of the people. Mr. Nosworthy: Hoar, hear! "Wo told you that long ago. Mr. Atmore: Here, I am stating only a.i abstract fact. Mr. Nosworthy: A very pertinent fact.. ■ ■ Mr. Atmore: I don't think it is a pertinent fact at the present, time. If tho land was worth £3,000,000 in value, he said, it was still worth as much whether it was held by the Crown and leased to the people or whether tho ■people held it mid paid tax. As long as there was a Government that would carry out the wishes of tho people itwas just as easy to got the amount re 7 quired, whether it was called tax or rent. He considered tho leasc-in-por-petuity a bad bargain for the State, and tho sooner tenants took the freehold and allowed the State to make a proper levy upon it by way of taxation the hotter it would bo for the Stato. Mr. Payne Rebuked. Mr. J. Payne roso to protest, and when lie said something especially preposterous, a Government member laughed. Mr. Payno mocked his laugh in reply. Mr. Malcolm: "Will tho honourable gentleman, resumo his seat? I trust he will not forget that 110 is in tho Parliamentary Assembly in New Zealand. Mr. Payne: I didii't forget, Mr. Mal<colin, but when a man cackles at me like that I think I have a right to show how ridiculous it is. . Mr. Malcolm: I liavo already advised tho honourable gentleman that ho was not in order in what he did. Then Mr. Payno went 011 with his protest, predicting, as usual, the sudden ,dowufall. r of.,.tho .Government. The ' ''Glib"'Fallacy." '. | Mr. L. M. Isitt.said he would record his protest against the clause, ~'i'he member for Nelson, in saying that it was'as. easy, for tho State to tako revenue from freehold as from leasehold, had uttered a glib fallacy. It never worked out in practice. Ho recognised that tho leasoi-sid policy was not an easy one to follow, because when the number of leaseholders was increased thoy all bccamo soldiers for tho other side, fighting for tho freehold. ' This Government had, ho said, appealed to the greed and cupidity of tho leaseholders. Mr. H. Atmore said the member for Christchurch North had sat down without exposing tho glib fallacy to which lie had referred, Rather ho had established a leasehold fallacy. Mr. Isitt had said, in effect: Multiply the number of leaseholders, which should bo a most desirable thing acording to his opinion, and a Government would ariso which would appeal to their cupidity and they would get .tho freehold. In other words, it was impossible to hold tho land for any country in tho hands of leaseholders. Did not they all know that deep down in tho heart of every man was tho- dosire to hold a scction of land, liowover small? r Mr. Isitt: Doesn't the 999 years leaso satisfy you ? _ Mr. Atmoro: No, it does not. Ho went on to demonstrate again to Mr. Isitt how ho had, by his proposition "multiply tho leaseholders, etc.," (lug a' pitfall for himself, and shown how impossible it was for the lands of any country to bo held under leasehold. Of course, tho fact was that human nature w'as stronger than any law, and every man wanted tho freehold, and he would get it in the endi The Freehold Power. Mr. L. M! Isitt essayed to reply to Mr. Atmore. He contended that the power that had enabled leaseholders to get tho freehold would ensure their not being taxed beyond a certain extent. He urged that the proposal before tho l-fcuso was part and parcel "of the give-away by the present Government of tho Crown endowments." It was . the beginning of the end. As suro as thev stood there, the educational reserves would go. There was only 0110 logical outcome to tho thing. The present members of Parliament had been weak under pressure, and men who followed them would bo weak under stronger pressure. Rebuko to Mr. Isitt. Sir "Wolter Buchanan said that the member for Christchurch North stood out by himself, aloile, as,ollo who had made a miserable accusation against the land-owners of the, Dominion. He had or-cused them of greed and selfishness, of absolute disregard of their public duties, and of being animated only by a desire to got tho freehold instead of the leasehold, which many of them now had. , r , . M r. Isitt: Absolutely your own fabrication! (Laughter.). Mr. Payno: Absolutely true! Sir' Walter Buchanan: I congratulate the hon. gentleman 011 tho fact that, so far as I know, 110 other publit; man in New Zealand has taken up tin same position as the hon. gentleman has done. Mr. Isitt said that the member for "Wairarapa had, as usual when he was irritated Sir AV. Buchanan: I am not irritntcd. Mr. Isitt said that words had been put into his mouth that he had never uttered. Sir Wn.lter Buchanan had then proceeded to knock down the straw man created by himself. Tho member for Wairarapa had deliberately misrepresented him. He (Mr. Isitt) had stated that greed was at the bottom of this civ for the, freehold. No more rotten cant had ever been talked by any section of men than this talk about the sentiment of the freeholcl "Wo may bo beaten i» the struggle." lie declared, in grandiloquent tones, "but the righteoitsnes of our position is unshaken." (Laughter.) The Leaseholders' Innings. Mr, J. A. Hunan said that one great feature of the leasehold tenure was that,

under it tlie area could be limited, but | under the freehold, whatever limitation clauses were framed, tiie.v could be got round, find tliev would be got round. Mr. 11. G. Ell and Mr. A. 11. Hindmarsh also protested against the proposal in the clauso to give away the freehold to tenants of settlement lands. Mr. AV. D. S. MncDonuld urged MlO Prime Minister to be suro that some clause in the Hill would prevent one settler who had been successful from buyiuj; out his neighbour. This, he -alleged, was_ the undoubted intention of somo leasehold tenants who bad done well. 110 was a freeholder, and he would vote for tho clause, but he was not in agreement with those who said that satisfactory settlement could not go on under the l.i.p. tenure. But on the other band he did not believe that the State was giving away a great (leal. The Hon. AV. F. Massey maintained that tho provisions in the Bill aggregation were quire adequate, and" lie had been advised by tho Crown Law Office that the clause in the Bill could not be improved upon. Mr. T. 11. Davey, who had liofc previously spoken 011.any stage of the Hill, said that he recognised that tho life of tlie leaseholder was ended 111 the iiouso of Kopresentatives. He, as a leasebolder, had kicked for veal's against tho proposal to alienate the freehold or Crown Inn'ls. Not many years ago thero bad boon liltv-fivo members of the House who 'were leaseholders. iNow thero wore sixty-one freeholders. Tho proper thing for the Government to' do wa» to repeal the Lands for Settlement Act, for tire Govornment had 110 right to borrow money 011 account ot the people to buy land to sell it again to a few —the fow who had the luck to draw Jucky marbles in the ballot. There was no doubt that tho leasehold had succeeded in helping tho progress of New Zealand. To say that because a man was a leaseholder he could not cultivate his land was so much piffle. Tho present proposal was to give tho , men 011 the land something that the Government had 110 right to give. Further the money that was being borrowed was being used to purchase poor land in the hack-blocks of New Zealand, which was quite unsuitable for close settlement. He would vote against tho clauso and against tho Bill. The Mask Off. Mr. J. B. Hine said 110 would' liko leaseholders to say whether they proposed to break tho leases from tho Crown: Leasehold members: No. Mr. Hino said that unless the leases wero to bo attacked it was impossible to sustain their arguments for the leasehold. The lands wero absolutely gone from the State's control already under tho lease, and their argument was that by giving theso lands to tho tenants tho Government were doing a dire wrong to the democracy. Mr. AVebb: AYc would break the leases if necessary to settle the land— aud compensate them. Mr. Hine: I thought that was it. I •have attained my object. Tho country, he said, would be surprised to get this admission. Ho went 011 to say that under tho present system six million pounds worth of borrowed money was locked up to benefit somo 5000 people. And' who was paying for it? Tho ])eople, the democracy tho honourable gentlemen wero so fond of talking about. Tho sooner theso people paid back this money, and enabled tho Government to buy more land 011 which tfl settle the landless, the hotter. Mr. L. M. Isitt said that the leaseholders wero not responsible for tho continuance of tho debate. Thoy had made their protest and were 'content, but now they w'oro being subjected to misrepresentation. 0110 very pertinent statement that-had been made that' jiiight was that 110 effort had over been !mado by tho large landholders of this .Dominion to help the landless. Tho Conservative party had opposed all efforts to break up big estates. Ho; invited tho Prime Minister to bo logical and to bring down legislation that would givo private tenants the right to acquire the freehold at a prico fixed by •arbitration. Not to be Pleased. Tho Prime Minister denied that his party had never dono anything to improvo tlip leasehold. That evening he had endeavoured to apply the best system of leasehold that he know of to tho pastoral runs. In this 110 had been as bitterly opposod by tho leaseholders as when he bad tried to promote tho freehold. He did not know what tlie&s hon. members wanted. Wero they leaseholders or wero they freeholders? Mr. Nosworthy: Thoy are wasters I • The Prime Minister said that ho had tried that night to mako provision for the best system of leasehold that ho knew of, and 18 members 011 tho other side had gone .in to tho lobby and voted against it. Ho did not know how to please theso hon. gentlemen, and henceforth 110 would not try to do it. Mr. Isitt .had said that Great Britain was a freehold country. It was a country of freehold for tho few and leasehold for tho many. Ho wanted to prevent tho state of affairs that obtained in Great Britain to-day from ever getting a footing in this country. Had it not been for tho. system of entail and primogeniture the big estates in Great Britain would liavo been broken up long ago. What they had to do was to prevent entail and primogeniture ever being established hero. He did not think they would ever bo established here. Mr. Hindmarsh: Is this germane to tho subject before the Houso? Mr. Massey: This is leasehold generosity 1 The Chairman said that tho discussion was out) of order. Mr. R. M'Callum (AVairau) advised his friends to reservo their further remarks in opposition to this Bill for tho third reading. Tho discussion was continued by Messrs. J. Robertson and H. G. Ell, the latter of whom stated that if Stato leaseholds over became a bar to settlement it would undoubtedly bo a fair thing to reservo them, at a fair value, for subdivision.^ .A member: You would break the contract ? Mr. Ell said that under the circumstances it would bo quite justifiable to do so. It was not until 11.32 p.m. that a division was taken upon Clause 48. It was passed by 43 votes to 18. A Limitation Clause. Clause 49, which applies a limitation of area in tlie case of a tenant of settlement land buying his holding, was opposed by ill'. Witty 011 the ground that it would unduly favour tho purchaser, but was agreed to 011 a division by 39 votes to 21. Raising Funds. Clause 50 deals with the provision of funds for the acquisition and opening ,up of lands for settlement. Sir J. AVa-rd asked why tho amount to be raised had been, increased to £600,000 per annum. The Prime Minister said that the amount for the purchase of land had not been increased, but that £100,000 had been provided for roading. Sir J. AVard contended that the Government wiis embarking in a large increase ill borrowing, although its -prominent members when in Opposition had continually .declaimed against borrowing for this and other purposes He invited Ministers to reconcile these statements with the fact that they were proposing to borrow ail additional £100,000 under this Hill, although large sums were, being received from land sales. "Nothir.'i; Now." The Prime Minister said that tho clause simply repented the present law. Thero was nothing now about the proposal. As to the remark regarding the sum to be derived from the sale of the freehold it must bo boron in mind that this money would not be available to-

morrow. Tho purchase provision, 110 believed, would be fully availed of, but it would tako probably a year for it to eomo properly into operation. After that time he anticipated that the Stato would bo receiving about £200,000 or £260,000 a year from the sale ot the freehold. They would then bo able to reduce the borrowing t<>. that extent. Jle was looking forward to tho improved market for wool aiiorded by the new American tariff having a marked cil'oct for the better on land .settlement. He, however, was not going to buy land unless he was satisfied that it was worth tlie money and that settlers would bo able to make a living off it. Sir Joseph Ward sgid.that tho provisions iu the present Bill, and in his own Act, were not analogous, as the l'rimo Minister had indicated. Mr. Massey: Yes, tiie.v are. Sir Joseph AVard said that 110 would vote against the clause. He wanted to ■ know why this largo additional amount ' was required. Mr. Massey: There is_,no additional. Sir Joseph AVard: Then why is so much required? .Mr. Massey: AV6 may not use it ail. Sir Joseph AVard said that ho would not move to reduce the amount, hut ho contended that Ministers had been inconsistent. Mr. Wilson: It is not enough. Sir Joseph AVard said that 110 Minister of Finance could satiate t'lip greed for money of the member for Tauniarumii. Mr. AVilson: Is it greed to ask that poor unfortunate settlers shall bo given a road? Tho clauso was passed at 0.35 a.m.Clauso 51, which deals with tho opening of lands for settlement, was passed without discussion. Acquiring Private Lands. Clause 52 dealing with tho acquisition of private lands required for settlement provoked some discussion. One sub-clauso provides that where an owner of land has entered into an agreement with the Minister to cut up his land'and fails to carry it out, tho land may, within a stated time, be taken compulsorily under the provisions of tho Land Act. As drafted, tho Bill had mado the' period seven years. This had been altered by the. Lands Committco to four years. 011 tho motion of tho Prime Minister it w'as now again altered to five years. Tho clause was passed at 0.35 a.lll. The Aggregation Clauso. AVhen some machinery amendments had been made in Clauso 53, which deals with aggregation, t slr. A. H. Hindmarsh addressed tho Prime Minister. "Is it worth while," | 110 asked, "to put tho countrv to tho cxpenso of printing this twaddle?" A member suggested typewriting. Mr,. Hindmarsh:. "Y'cs ; it would bo hotter to have it typewritten and by a person who was learning typewriting!" [ 111 concluding ho expressed the opin- , ion that the l'rimo Minister "in the bigness of his heart " had determined to provido. work for some printers who . otherwise would have to be discharged. ] Tlio clauso was passed at 0,45 a.m. Several new clauses of a technical character were added to the Bill. . Pastoral Leases. 1 1 One new clause dealing with pastoral ; runs provided that any person should [ bo deemed to hold a run if his wife, or 1 her husband, as the case might be, hold . a run, and another that 110 person under 21 years of age should hold a pas- ■ toral pin. i Ownership of Minerals. ~ Tlio Primo Minister 'introduced tho 1 following new clause, hut agreed that i it should stand. ; ovor. :; until .members had >' to consider, it at leisure:—/ , "Where tlio .holder of any lease or > license to occupy thrown lands liercto--1 foro or hereafter granted has exorcised ■ or cxercisos, iii resDcct Of such land or >/ any part thbreof, ti right to acquire the ' fee-simple' conferred b.v' any Act, and ' the Crown thereafter'exorcises.a right 1 of roßumpti6n of such lands conferred by either tho Mining Act, 1908, or tlio Coal-mines Act, 1908; there shall not bo included in tho assessment of the com- , pensation to bo paid by tlio Crown pursuant to tho provisions of either of tho , said Acts the value of any metals, minerals, coal, or oil upon or under such , lands, unless tho lease or license under , which the land was held at tho time of' I tho acquisition of tho fce-simplo con- , ferred upon tho holder thereof, expressly \ or by implication, tho right to extract t for iiis own benefit such motals, minerals,'coal, 'or oil." Mr.. Massey said that the effect of the [ clauso was to enablo tho Stato' to rc- ■ sumo lands on paying compensation in , respect of the surface value, but not • for minerals. | Mr. M'Callum: Retrospective? 1 Mr. Massey: Only so far as the free- . hold of last' year and this year ,is con- . corned. i Tho Bill was reported to. tho Houso : with amendments at 1.32 a.m. Tho • Prime Minister was heartily applauded j as ho returned to his seat. ; To Sir Joseph AVard, t'lio Prime . Minister said that lie did not intend to i go 011 with tho Bill to-day. He would . have it reprinted with the amendments . before taking the third reading. ; Tho House roso at 1.35 ji.-m.