COUNCIL REFORM BILL,

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1860, 20 September 1913, Page 4

COUNCIL REFORM BILL,

DEBATE CONTINUED. THE HON. J. ANSTEY. The Hon. J. ANSTEY resumed tho debate on the question that, the Council go into Committeo cn the Legislative Council Bill. Ho complimented tho Committeo which had considered tho Bill on having; presented a most valuable report. Ho strongly opposed Mr. Riigg's proposal to substitute tho List system for proportional representation. In hiß opinion tho List system tvould accentuate tho evils of proportional representation, and would; place the Government at tho moroy of littlo cliques. • Referring _to y tho Bill, he Entirely disagreed, with, tho two main principles of 'at, ttliat of .popular election of tho'J and that of election by proportional representation. He believed in ,a\Second Chamber, an intermediary power between the Crown and the democracy, but if that 'intermediary power wero established on a democratic basis, it would ba merely a duplication of tno primary Chamber, and would bo destroyed as an ' intermediary power. The introduction of Electivo Second Chambers in tho Commonwealth had not . been productive of good. Rather it had produced in politics there a state approaching chaos. Nor was it fair to compare bur state with that of South Africa, where there was a heterogeneous population, as different as possible from our own. -Ho could not support proportional representation, becauso he believed that it would be tho system most likely to produce representation that would-not bo proportional. 'It was not satisfactory in Tasmania, and it had not dono what was expected of it. It did not give representation to all parties thero, but, on tho contrary, had driven all tho pcojilo into two parties. Sectional organisations were the only bodies of people wilt) could do anything under the schema', and in New Zealand the organisations in the citios and towns would sweep the polls. Candidates representing t-bo interests of our back districts would have no clianco of election, and tho people in tho country districts would bo virtually disfranchised.

The Alternatives. If tho Government's proposal were rejected two alternatives wore open: either the nominative system should be retained, or another system should be sought which would conserve tho usefulness of the Council. Ho claimed that the Council-under the nominative system had done very good work. Ho believed in tho seven years' term of nomination in preference to tho life nomination, and for. his own. part the seven years' term of offico had not in any way restricted his freedom of voting, Of course, there, were faults in tho nominative system, as-in force-lioro,'but these could be provided against, quite apart fromVthis Bill. . It was said that the Council tended to become an .old mon's homeland, perhaps with ;som<j truth, but it seemed to-'him that the remedy for this was to provide aged legislators who had servefL.thq .country .well for a great number of /years with a/pension'6n retirement. Then it would not bo necessary for men to remain in either branch of tho Legislature boyond their years of usefulness. •' "Ho supported an improved system of nomination, but if that could not bo obtained ho would incline .to support tho recommendations Df tho Committee—that vacancies in the Council bo filled by election by members of both Houses of Parliament. iAnd ho held that' if the elections woro to bo by ballot, and during the recess there would bo very little objectionable log-rolling. Ho would prefer, however, that tliero should bo two days in the year for tho election of members of tho Council, one day in January, and ono about a month beforo tho sitting of Parliament, and that casual vacancios occurring should not be filled until tho next election day came round. Generally,, however, ho was of opinion that wo should not approach the question in a light-hearted manner, and that little good was likely to come of tinkering "Vitla the Legislature. THE HON. J. E. JENKINSON. A NOVEL PROPOSAL. Tlio Hon. J. E. JENKINSON saidf that he had changed his mind to an extent in regard to tho Bill. ' At first lie had opposed the Bill, but now, since the Council had virtually adopted tho electoral principlo by agreeing to the second reading of tho Bill in. two sessions, ho was prepared' to withdraw opposition >to the Bill and to vote for it. Ho would, however, endeavour to havo amendments mado in Committee. He was totally opposed to tlio committee's proposal for election, bccauso it would bo absolutely destructive of tho independence of the Second Chamber to make members dependent for their election on members of another place. He knew from his own experience that this

would be so, for he had incurred the displeasure of certain members of the House of Representatives for having opposed Local Bills occasionally. He had already said he would vote for the electivo principle in tho Bill, but ho would vote for it only if he could move in ; Committee.' that certain safeguards . should be provided. In order to ensure that only such men as were fit to discharge tho duties devolving upon them should be elected, he would move that all candidates should be nominated by thoso parties having reasonable standing in the House of Representatives. THE HON. C. M. LUKE. FAVOURS COMPOSITE CHAMBER. The Hon. C. M. LUKE said that generally he held the same opinions as Mr. Sinclair—that the Chamber ought to bo partly elective and partly nominative. He was sure the> people would never bo content until they had some voice in tho constitution of tho Council, and ho believed the people could bo trusted. Various organisations wero viewed With alarm as a source of danger in elections to the Council, but he thought that in spite of them the result would ho that tno best men offering would bo elected to tho Council. He was sorry, however, that Mr. Sinclair had reduced his demand that half the members should be nominative. Ho did not think there was very much in tho objection to proportional representation that the country quota could not be retained in it. Ho attached no great importance to the quota and ho was rather sorry it had been raised. His own opinion was that the quota should not be allowed in elections to the Council. Ho would voto for the Bill, but ho would try in Committee to have such amendments made as would give effect to some at least of-his ideas. No Mixture Wanted. When the Council resumed at 8 p.m., The Hon. W. C. F. CARNCROSS said that no subject of greater interest to the Council could bo brought before it. Ho know that tho Committeo could not bring down a report which would give universal satisfaction. Ho had been surprised to find that there were still members of the Council who favoured a Council partly electivo and partly nominative. This was a piebald system. If either .'system was good, let them have it; .hufc::not _a mixture,;,'. , (Hear, hear.) THo felt that no good work could, be done by a body so constituted. Frankly'-speaking, ho had not much to say in favour of the report of the Committee, although ho bad himself been a member of it. Ho' would still reserve to himself the right to vote against every one of its recommendations if ho so wished. The more he saw of the work of the Committee, the further had he been convinced that the very best constitutional system was tho nominativo. The evidence in its favour was absolutely overwhelming, and ho had as yet heard not a single argument against it. He would _ not _ have it thought that it was his opinion, that the people wero not fit to elect the Council. They had all at times received many political- favours from the people, but ho had a deep-rooted conviction that there should bo one Houso which was free from tho pressure which the electors could bring on the other House. (Hear, hear.) The elective system would- introduce party into the House, and they all knew the evils of party. He did not despise party, because many of the greatest benefits which tho □pie had received from Parliament been tho result'of party straggle. At tlio same time there should bo a Houso where questions could be calmly disousscd after they liad) passed through tho storms of party in another place. (Hear, hear.) Some of the criticisms levelled against the Committee's recommendations -had not been quite fair, and would not havo been made if critics had had a fuller and wider knowledge of tho subject. The'contention that tho system of election proposed; would perpetuate tho Liberal majority in , tho Council was harsh and unjust—indeed, positively untruthful., (Hear, hear). Tho Committee had dono all that was liumanly possible to ensure that the present Administration should havo overy possible opportunity of restoring tho balanco of power iu tho Council. Much of the platform criticism directed against the Council had been just ag unfair. One present member of the Council had lately confessed at a public meeting that for years he had "blackguarded members of the Council up hill and down dale," but that bo now knew that they wero all right. Still,'he said, his former criticisms had been "good platform stuff." This was the most that could bo said for many similar statements. He sincerely regretted that past Administrations had sent to tho Council only j gentlemen of their own particular shado of political thought. Had this not been done, they would never havo heard tho prattle about Council reform. Tho nominative system gave to tho Dominion tho services of many excellent men who would not fac'o tho turmoil of public election.

The Hon. C. H. MILLS said that ho firmly believed in tho clcctivo principle, but it was a question whether it would bo wise to go to tho polls unless they were assured that gentlemen would bo sent to tho Council who would carry on the work which had been so ably dono by tho Council for many years. They should bo careful not to undermine their grand old constitution. Ho was certain that not-one poison in five in thd Dominion was in favour of tho abolition of tho Council. It was not the nominative system which was wrong, blit the way it had been administered. Referring to the committco's proposed scheme of election, the speaker said that the members of tlio Lower House woro considered competent to voto on matters of groat importance to the State. Why were they not capable of taking part in tho election of members of the Council? Members of the Council were wrong in opposing tho scheme simply because thoy considered that members of the other House would not do them justice. Tho election should take place immediately the members of a new Parliament arrived. Thoy would then bo able to givo their votes before tho.v had been submitted to political log-rolling. He did not favour direct election bccauso it would result in a duplication of tho Chambers. Ho would vote for tho Government measure against his own opinion, if ho could be persuaded that it was in accordance with the will of tlio people. Tho Hon. J. D. ORMOND moved the adjournment of tho debate until 2.30 p.m. on Tuosday next. ' Tho Council rose at 9.80 p.m.