THE REFORM BILL.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1859, 19 September 1913, Page 4

THE REFORM BILL.

DEBATE RESUMED.

; IHE. HON. 0. SAMUEL'S POSITION, "! WThe Hon.-.0. SAMUEL resumed tho ; debate, on the motion to go into Committee on tho "Legislative Council Bill. It:was desirable, he said, that there should ho no. further misunderstanding about the position of members of tho Council who had .voted for the Bill. Tho Leader of the Council had been misled last session, as to the attitude of those : members who voted for the second read- ' ing of the Bill, but tho position of those ;,who had voted for the second reading of ..this Bill had been so clearly defined iliat there, could be no such misconceph ifim this year. "'The Select" Committee set lip, had .'not been, unanimous in its . : findings, but, seeing that it .was .chosen (to, represent' different opinions, ( it was : Almost'' impossible that there should be : .■ unanimity. Tho Committeohad' collecti ed a. groat deal of matter, and had spent a-great deal of time in considering it. 0 In'regard to the Bill attached to tho Committee's report, ho had acted in the f, capacity of 'compiler 'only. It wbb' a ; faOt-that:there were oh'tho Committee fdur members who would go out of office 1 ch January 22 next,'but it was not true, asvwas alleged, that unworthy mbtives if bf.'.self-int'eresi)' had impelled the Com- ■ nlittee to "come' to certain' of the conclusions set out in the report.. For his I own part hohad last year-and this,year :been opposed'"to election,-and ip.;favour.,otnomination, buttho Leader . of;.tho:Gounoil had'dis{irmed his opposition and made;him come to a dispassion- ' ' ate consideration ,of:the 'elective proppsals,.; He had. come .tp tha conclusion fcjiat the' Council;" not-by -its own fault, lacked tho.'confidence of the country,; al- :' though jt de£emd;that confidence, witli- " out whioli it could riot properly discharge tho duties devolving upon it. How to restore .that confidence must be the.aim of the ;new >Billj but he believed that. the. passing of a Bill such as , that introduced ;;hy... the Government would her calamitous,, tl|p total abiflitionfi.of l.the ; bjjr. The Committee .had' declared for anjolection by: popular.-.franchise, ;a; mo-' . tibn by Mr. Sinclair in favour of. a quarter of the Council being nominated having^.been defeated. • Personally he. was' against. jroposed. constitution, because "the result would be a Chamber withi'iall tho faults of an eleotivobody.

Vacancies. ' IM'lwbiit on to deal with, tho Bill. It proposed that the vacancies as they occurred jii the Council, should be filled by clectioii by members of both Houses, the Vdtliig'to bfe by .voting papers and not ;at jjay meeting. To avoid party contesjts'"tb fill vacancies on the Council, tlie Bill.proposed,that not more than thi-ce;j-yac4ncies should bo tilled at any one time" In order to avoid more than this 'number of vacancies occurring on any tee'day, it was proposed that some of th'a numbers retiring , .next year should* be given extensions', of .time; for ,&Uy Hwb, tor three months. In o£def. iihat tho Council should keep someginfiifenco in the selection of "can-didate^,'-seeing that the House of Representatives was so mucti a bigger body,pit .'fras necessary that tho elections; should precede ,the vacancies. If tho Council were given no power in tho electorate of about 120 persons, and tho election were to be by tho House of Representatives alone; it would bo simply election'by the Government, as vicious as nomination possibly could be. It . was hecessary that there should be re-tained'in-the electorate a number of l'nen ;whp .'understood the work 'of tho Council,'and who were not actuated by party motives, or stirred by party strifes, fie said tho Bill the Committeo had brought down was not his Bill, and he not going to put it up in opposition to Mr. Bell's medsuro. He 'did not,'proposo to put forward any amendments to tho Government Bill. The Loader of the. Council had a right to a on his Bill, and ho would not intercept that division..

/ The Country's Mandate?; He believed Mr. Bell had receded from, the position ho took up last year —that, the country was in favour of the Bill in tho form in which he introduced it. Mr. Bell: No. Mr. Samuel said he was surprised to hear that the honourable gentleman had not receded r from an nntonablo position. Tho,present Governmcht going to the country with this plank in their platform had 'not been hopeful of getting into power. They wcro surprised at their success. . Mr. Bell: You aro quito wrong about that. Mr. Samuel said tho plant had bcon put into the platform without duo conjideration, and without a proper senso sf responsibility. . » Mr. Hardy: No, it wasn't. Mr. Samuel: Thero are two honourable gentlemen who don't agreo with' me. He still maintained that tho party had desired merely to put forward a popular proposal; and it was preposterous to say that because tho cfountry tad declared in favour of tho Massey party, tho country had approved of the party's proposals for the reform of the Legislative Council. This had never been an election issuo.

Other Second Chambers, 'He went on to discuss the methods of nomination or election in Second Chambers in the other Dominions, with in-t-iit to show that where the Second CliMinhsrs were elected tlio relations lr!n c:-n the two branches of the Legis-l-iiu'e w?re far from satisfactory, and that proportional representation c'ki not ;work otifc 'well. He especially f ithc application of proportional i"i>i "soi!tation Zealand, because it would' .be i'nipossibleunder tho sysi -m to! lt'eep'Lh(i cbUfitfy: ,• ftnd ii<s nnk'i if pOSsibl,ti;..fof';'tli&: peOplo ,ifl tlm r'liuitr.y to demand''that-money .should !> • irtfi'nt, )Vot" in "tlio "large, centres of papulation, but in the country on such works as .would increase the productiveness of the. country as a .whblo., The riuota'f'had'/had -good results in the D»st,'arttl;iti.certainly ought .to be re- ' He hosed and believed that the-. Pill

would go into Committee, and that the Minister would get a division on tho policy, clause (9) of the Bill. If this Were approved, and tho Bill passed, then he hoped that tho next step to be taken would bo tho abolition of the Council altogether.

"Ridiculous Recommendations." When tho Council resumed at 8 p.m., The Hon. J. RIGG said that the thanks of the Council were due to tho Hon. 0. Samuel for the work he had put into tho preparation of the report. On the results of their labours,- however, the Committee could not bo congratulated. : The recommendations in their report were, in his opinion, ridiculous. He questioned if the Bill proposed by tho Committee woiild satisfy the |)coplej His principal objection was that .it 1 would destroy every vestige of independence on the ,part of members of the Council. Its Only advantage was that it gave .members of the Council a chance of voting for their own election. Oil the other hand, if . a member did not please' ajl other members, he endangered the safety of 'his seat. He himself had on more than one occasion taken a stand in whicli he was almost alone. Had an election occurred at such a time he would almost certainly have lost his seat. .Mr. Samuel thought that the system he proposed would eliminate the part.'" element, • In the spoaker's opinion it would accentuate it. He could not see how Parliamentary ■government could be carried on without the party system, which had been evolved from years of experience. Oii questions .of political principle, Chambers were bound to divide themselves into parties, for and against. If tho Committee's recommendation were adopted, the party in power would certainly use every influence to have those elected to the Council who were on its sido.

Tlio Hon. J. E. Jenkinßon: You couldn't blame them.

Mf. Rigg: No. If tho recommendations were adopted, it might become the unpleasant duty of tho Council to turn out one of its membel'S to make room for another. Ho thought there, ought ; to be more Labour riiembors in tho Council, but he could not conceive it possible that tho Council would ever turn, out one of its members to make way for a Labour man. He understood ,Mr. Samuel to have said' that he would not proceed unless the principal provisions of the Government Bill „,,woro idefeateii. . Could they have a st'i'oiiger" c'bridSmnation of the ' recommendations than'that their principal author was not'-willing to move them in the , Council? .

Mr. Samuel: Not until the Government Bill has been considered.

It seemed id tho speaker that tho Committee had gone to work ih the wrong way. Amongst the sixteen members of the Council who would be lost to the Council before the next session of Parliament, through the expiry of their term, were some of the most useful members of the Council. Ho did not know whether or not the Government would send these men back to tho Council for another term of seven years; He thought the Committee should have considered these. Instead of searching throughout tho British Do-minions-for a scheme to copy, tho Committee should havo brought down an original - system which would' have brought them credit. He believed that the people of tho Dominion were distinctly in favour of a nominative system. His own idea was still as it was when the question was first raised nomination or abolition. A very short experience of single-Chamber rule would convince tho country of the necessity for tlie Second Chamber. Tho Labour party had not asked for an elective Chamber..' Ho did not support life nomination.' Ho would voto against both the Government Bill and the Bill embodying the recommendations of the Committee.

"A Pocket Borough." The Hon. THORNE GEORGE said that lie agreed with a great deal of what Mr. Rigg had said, but he arrived at a different conclusion. To his mind the Bill proposed' by the Committee was a Bill sotting up one of the closest boroughs he had ever heard of. Talk about the pocket borough of pre-reform days. The election of the Council was to be put into the hands' of 120 men. Unless a member of the Council made himself objectionable to his fellow-members, and to the members of tile Lower House, he was bound to bo re-elected. He thought it was tho duty of the chairman of the committee to move tho recommendations of tho'committee as amendments to the Government Bill, but this, he understood. was not to b« done. He thought tho limitation of the membership to forty was a good idea. Fortj; members were all that were necessary in a revising Chamber. What possible chance would a new man liave of being elected against a man who had been lor vears a popular member of Parliament. Ho thought that Mr. Samuel would not propose amendments in accordance with his draft Bill bcCauSo .he was ashamed of it. (Laughter.) ,He"contended that tile system of postal vote, proposed by tlio Committeo, was hot a secret ballot. Tho provision that a vote was not valid if thero were less names marked on tho .ballot' paper than tho number of vacancies was absurd. If the Council were to be elected peoplo, .thon it should bo oil' a different franchise from that of tho 'Lower Houso, which ' must' always bo the democratic House. He could not vote'for tho Com-' mittco's Bill,'and he certainly would not voto for tho Government Bill so lcng as it proposed that both Houses should be elected on the Same franchise

Liberal Majority Assured. The Hon. JOHN DTJTHIE said that his sympathies were entirely with lifo nomination, but ho was nevertheless in the peculiar position that ho might be driven into voting for tlio Government measure. It was necessary tliat in tlio Legislature there Should be a number of members who would act as a check on hasty, legislation, and stay public clamoui, being at tho same time secure in their scats, 'l'ho system of ejection proposed by tho Committee Would porpotuato for ever tho Liberal majority in. tlie Counoil. There wero how 28 membors out of 40 in the Council who had been nominated by Liberal Administrations. This majority would overrule tho smaller llefonn majority in tlio other ' House. Tlieio wero twelvo members whose term expired on January 22 of next year. Under tho Committee's sohortie, they would all bo reelected, or other members of tho Same political thought out in their place. Tho ;_C'augd[ \voulrf m ft 3".

surod Liberal majority for years to come. So long as this proposal remained in 11 r. Samuel's Bill lie must oppose it. 'The lion. \V. EARNSHAW said that the country wits clearly of tho opinion that tho Council should ho elective. Ho was pleased that the Hon. J. It. Sinclair had bccomo a tlircc-fourtliß convert to this system. No cogent argument had been brought forward by any member in favour of nomination. Tho debate was adjourned until 2.30 p.m. to-day, on the motion of tho Hon. J. Anstey. Tho Council rose at 9.65 p.m.