PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1858, 18 September 1913, Page 4

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

BLOCKADE ENDED.

WORK ON THE ESTIMATES PROCEEDING.

THE: COMMISSIONERS ;AGAIN.

THE COOK ISLANDS ADMINISTRATION.

The Legislative Council mot at 2,30 p.m. , . . Tlio Hon. S. THOR.NE GEORGE asked 1 tho Minister for Internal Affairs whether ;it; .was, the intention of tho Government .'to Hake any further stops ro tho examination and; grading of dairy produce before exportation. The Hon.' H.' D, Bell replied that the powers ,of, graders; wcro limited by law, and they--could niot absolutely prohibit the exportatidh'oEproduce unless it was quite umvHQlp&olne; All .they .could-.do was to ' a lower grade. ; ' \ .' - CHRISTCHURCH ELECTRICAL < SUPPLY.. Tho Hoii: C. LOtIiSSON moved the second Toadirig • ofj'the Christchurch Electrical 'Supply-'Empowering Bill The object of the •lieiisb.tdjtTVaa to. tho Christehuroh',CiW''G<jiincil to'bdrrow a sum'-of of lending it out agaiiii-to sniiill owners to enaiblo them to eohneet tip with tho proposed electric: light'.supply.'. Tlio City Council : t liad.: authorityfrom', tlio ratepayers bori'ow* £127)000 for the purpose 'of distributing: - the ' Supply from La.ko Coleridge. . : Tlie/ISill was favourably received iin.Ohri-stc-lntrch;.. The Hon. :: J. DUTHIE .thought that tho Council -was entitled, to have more information -v,'i This; Cliristcburch City' Coiuioil'wishod ■ to; borrow a. largo sum of mon«y 'Without -the'- authority, of the ratepayers,, aiidvto embark on .a soheme which was just as liable,to result in a loss as'in a profit. The Hon. S. T. GEORGE contended -that tho,coiiticil was"viriually.;spfcting up a business,'in, opposition, to':,its'own. citizens; ;V What';hopehad- a private firm of competing .with a body whioh would not only do the work of installation, but actually find the money to. pay for it? Customers -were: charged - only six per cent, on the monoy, tho corporation making a profit of one por cent. V.The Bill simply meant tlio setting up of ahuge monopoly, and was probably merely the forerunner of others by- which other local bodies' wonld~;seek power to carry out works = which would''be: far better left in private'hands. ; ■'■' The Hon. JOHN BARR read an extract from a speech, of the Mayor or , Christchurch, ,to the effect, .that tho council did not havo tho intention of sotting up'.a monopoly. Thc.objcct of the corporation,.Mr.' Barr said 1 , was to allow even $10., poorest man to install; electric light, ift .his residence. The City Council was roally "booming?' an industry to .rachaji extent' -'that ovcry person engaged) in it would materially -benefit. ..... The Hon. W. EARNSHAW saul that the' City Council was entering into unfair'competition. The. council had no; right to go further into a house-.than tho,motor. If ,it could be done, with' electricity, why .'riot with gas? The Hon. C. M. LUKE said that.the: Bill' contained the same provisions as practically all tho Drainage Bills already in force ini the Dominion. The Bill, did not create a' monopoly, but if it did there was no body more; fitted to'hold a monopoly than a public corporation, which could bo directly criticised -by tho ratepayers. The Hon. G. JONES expressed his "exceeding approval" of tho Bill. The people of Christoliurcli were to bo congratulated 1 on securing an electric service} on terms which would make it available to the poorest citizens. The debate was continued Iby the Hons. C. H. Mills, R. A.' Loughnan, G. J. Smith, and \V. Beehan. The Hon. H. D. BELL (Minister for Internal Affairs) said that he wished to say . that tho opponents of the Bill had had an opportunity of expressing themselves,upon it.., Certain members of tho ; trade iu Wellington had comb to him and asked him wliether it was necessary for them to bring witnesses from. Cliristchurchto give evidence before tlio Local Bills Committee. Ho had told them that, ,as they represented the trado; they could give evidence before the committee, and it would not bo necessary to bring-Witnesses from Christchurch. ■ The Hon. J. BARR said that evidence had been given by a Wellington firm which-had a branch in Christchurch. This could not bo held to bo ovidenco on behalf of Christchurch firms.'

the voice of the people. The two Houses, however, were elected oil a dilfercnt franchise, and tare had been taken to see.that one Home should not bo a reproduction of tho other. In two States members held their scats by nomination for life. In Canada and New Zealand sonntors wcro also nominated for life. Ho did not support this system, but it was worth considering if they wished to have really tho best system. The Australian Commonwealth Senate was also elected, by tho voice of tho people, undor conditions preserving the different character of tho two Houses. Although both Chambers weTe elated by the people, they represented different interests. The .House was elected by the people of tho Commonwealth, and tii© Senate by the people of tho States, so that the States ,had representation qua States. The States were, therefore, assured of representation in eases where their interests were not at one witli those of the Commonwealth.' In the South African Union. Senate there were two elements—elccted and nominated. There were eight members nominated for ten years, and 32 members elected for the same term, lliose members were. elected on ■ a different system from that adopted in Australia. An lion, member: They have a system of secondary election. , 1 Mr. Sinclair: Yes, but a' system radically different; from that recommended iii the report of tho committee. • He Would like to remove the impression which seemed to be-generally held, that tlio existence of a nominated element of tho South African Senate was to bo merely temporary. Ho could not find that this was so. ■ (Hear, hear.) At tho end of the ten years tho nominative system might be retained.

Lessons Froip other Systems. The examination of these systems taught three lessons. Firstly—the New Zealand Council as nominated to-day was obsolete. Such a Chamber could not be found anywliero else. The sys-tem-had-lasted so long that they wero in danger of falling into tho error of thinking that whatever, is' i 3 right. Secondly—No support could be found within. tho Empire for a constitution such as would' bo set up under tho recommendation of tho committee, There was no example like it. Although in. South Africa members were appointed by secondary election, they were elected by outside bodies—the four provincial bodies sitting as ono.- Thirdly—Tho disposition throughout tlio Empire was to givo tho people a larger-/sharp-.in the government. The question was, which of theso systems .would best suit Now Zealand ? Ho was ■ siiro that the best Council' would bo ono largely' elected by the peoplo. If the people were qualified to exercise this important right of citizenship; why should it bo withhold from.them ? Even if there was. no persistent demand from the people for the exercise of this right, 'the-Council ghould givo it them before a clamour arose.

- Election and Nomination. What he proposed was that ono half of the Council should bo elected, and one half nominated. He was prepared, if necessary, to go further, and havo only one-fourth of nominated members, tho nomination to bo either for lifo or for a term of years. Personally, he preferred life nomination. Ho would- like the lion, leader of the Council to abato somewhat his proposal for a wholly elccted Council. There was a great principle involved. He was convinced that if the Council were wholly elected, they woidd simply be reproducing the House of' Representatives. This would be the first step towards the total destruction of the Council., The .two Houses must bo of a different character. If tlioy were the same, tho existence of tlio Second Chamber could not bo defended.

Mr; 801 l pointed out that tho wit- j liesses "represented the traclo generally. ; He had :told itliem .that they would not i requiro.to bring witnesses from Christchurch, >and ho _ thought the- Council would'support him. (Hear, .hear.) Mr.'Louisson having replied, tho Bill was road a second time, and its committal was jnado an order of the day for ■Wednesday next. MORNINGTON TRAMWAYS. On tho motion of tho, Hon. J. It. Sinclair,.' tho : .Council went into Committee tQ."'.consider the Borough of Morn-' ingten Tramways ■ Act Amondment Bill. Tho Bifl'iwas .'passed through Committee witho,fit' l amendment,. read a third timo, ind passed. '•i; COUNCIL REFORM. A SCHEME SUGGESTED. The proposal that tho Council should go into Oommitteo to consider tho Legislative Council Bill was next on tho Order Paper. ■: "■ '■\ ' The Hon. H. D.BELL 'said that ho' did not -propose - to ask -the Council to sit tluvt--evening, but to adjourn" until the following atternoon.- Evening sittings ,would be held ori Thursday and Friday. Tho Hon. J. R. SINCLAIR said that ho was Sorry, that/tho members of the Select Comrtiitteo set up to considor tho question of roform of tho Council, and which had recently presented its report, hijd not como to a closer agreement. It had been t'hoir unanimous opinion that a chango was necessary, and that some system of election should bo adopted. However, whon tlicy'.cams to tho vital question as to who should elect tho mombers of tho Council, it had been agreed by a.bare majority that tho electioh'should be'by members of the House of 'jfijopresentativea and the Legislative Council sitting together. Ho could not agree with .this. It was .no better than the .system which they had set out to improve, and was distinctly a retrograde I movement.' : The best thing the Council ;*could now do would be to examine other, systems which had been adopted by other parts of the Empire to niako their Second Chambers sound and lasting, "institutions. ■; 'Hero wero; many kinds', of Chambers in tho Empire, and few were exactly alike. If they set on ono* sido tho proposed Senato for tlie Irish Parliament, there was not -ono which would be elected in exactly the same manner as that proposed by the Bill now undor consideration. In tour States of i Australia, tho choice was by

Mr. Bell: Hear, hear. Tho presence of nominated members would give the required elomcnt of differentiation, and, would also provide that check'.on hasty legislation which was ono of tllo most important of the functions of tho Council. Even a small minority could retard legislation for a long time. (Laughter.) llf both Houses were elected by tho same people tliero would of necessity be rivalry between them. A proportion of nominated members would also assure tho preservation of that characteristic of'tho Lower House which made it essentially tho people's Cliamber. Before the Council fully discussed tho proposals now before it, they should be informed of tho wholo scheme of electoral reform. (Hear, hear.) They were setting out to alter one important constitutional bodj, regardless of tho fact that each House was closely woven ill with tho other. Before tliey could say whether any scheme was the best, they wanted to know what the House intended to do. Why should this information be kept back? The Bill was not going to be passed next day, so tliero was plenty of time for the information to bo given. (Hear, hear.) It would bo well for membors to keep in mind exactly whait tho present system is. They were appointed by some of tho members of tho Houso of Representatives. An lion, member: And of tho Council. Mr. Sinclair: By the Leader of_ the Council. Tho proposal of .the committee did not seem to him* therefore, to be a chango of principle. It was merely an extension of the franchise from a part of tho Houso to the whole Houso. Would this bo. any improvement? , Would it satisfy the community who wanted a real change? But'the proposal went further. It sought to give to members of tho Council a part in their, own election. Could this bo justified? Aii hon. member: Yes. Mr. Sinclair: An hon. member says "Yes." I shall bo interested ito hear what arguments ho has to bring forward when 1,0 rises to speak. There was ono thing, at anyrate, about the present system, and that was that members of tho Council wero elected by men chosen by tho people. To alter that would surely bo to do away with a democratic principle. The doliate was adjourned until 2.30 p.m. next day, on the motion of tho Hon. 0. Samuel. The Council rose at 4.45 p.m.