OUR LONDON OFFICE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1853, 12 September 1913, Page 4

OUR LONDON OFFICE.

polls. SECURING CLEAN VOTING. GRADUATED INCOME TAX PROPOSALS.

The Legislative" Council' met at '2.30 /p.itf.?' Four" weeks'. Extension of .time was , granted. .to . the Defence Committee in ' whioh-.tb'make.their report. . •. An. extension of two days' timo was - i' . granted, to the Legislative -'Council Bill ;. .Coflrmitted. ' 1 • PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE.'- " SECOND HEADING OF BILL. Tho Hon:' H?. D. BELL moved tho sccoiid/. reading'bf , tho Public, ; Trust, Offico Amendment 'Bill, and ho explained in detail the clauses in it- which amended the present lai# l . Ho commend'- . ed' the' : Bill' to Hhe consideration; of the .Council. . . ... Tho. Hon.: E. C. J.. STEVEi&S noted thd.fact, that, three new classes of trustee's, ..'iulvisory, custodian,- and mtfnag- • ing, woro created'under ■ tho Bill. It appeared that. tho Hon. tlio. Leader of., with I of'the office of advisory. : trustee into our country/ apparently for- ' : tho 1 ' conveniehco of certain peoplo 'in England. - npt, Quito., sure that of;, ffrustee"were adequately, defined by. tho Bill.:. Ho was sure;."'however, that'thero' was' much in • tho t Bill'that'ivas very Valuable,'but also i. mueh^hiit'jlceded'explanatipil.

J.. ; R. SINCLAIR referred: firsti'tb tho. set ting., up. „of" an advisory truiteo.under:Section .4. • He suggested that there : was a 'danger' in tho provision [that'the'Public Trustee was not liable for'!a;tiytliiiig dono on.tho written advico. of 'an' advisory trustee.; This was surely going much too far, to relievo tho'/rublic 'Trustee from' tho_ statutory liability now placed upon' .him," which tho'creators of ; tho trust believed was. his-when they' imposed it on him/ He agreod that it was advisable that beneficiarie's "under''d jirivato trust should have 'a" right' to llavo the' accounts of the trust investigated at tho order of tho'Public Trusteo; but ftio. clauso gave the Public Trustee arbitrary'power to declaWthat' tho costs .of'the investigation''should , be' bo'rner by tho: private', trustee.' Ho; did not believe that thePublic should bo put in tlio position of a judgo.in -this way. Ratlfer lie should bo required) to apply to tho Court befora putting 0 stigma upon tho trustees.' • The Commissioners. Tho Hon. .T. RIGG referred to tho publid Trust Commission.' It 3iad come £3 a surprise to most-of the people to find -that -an inquiry into -what- was-.siip-. posed to bo.: one of our best managed public institutions was necessary. Ho was inclined; to ithink'that tho inquiry was instigated by the law societies of tho Dominion, and was in thoir interest. They did not liko tlio Public Trust Office becauseiitvjvas .a formidable competitor with; them for business, owing to tho fact-:ihaffithe office did its work very cheaply. The Commissioners having hoard evidence of law societies made certain recommendations, and, aii; opinion expressed ;by Mr. Macintosh was that tlio attempt to sot up a legal bureau in connection with the offico to undertake work Wii? a very questionable, and rash experiment, involving responsibilities it. would be' prudent to. avoid. ; Many.'of l the legal services of the Public Trusteo were ; done free of charge,- instead'.of' at the high, rates charged by. lawyers. . ... ■ i Mr. Belh':You give the'lawyers the five per cent, commission! Mr. PJgg said it was apparent to him that tho lawyers disliked, the offico because it did' work for which they could charge higher fees. It had been said that thesp- ;chcap 1 services involved a t : :■ reduction of profit on tho Common':: Fund, but a "return presented to tho Council showed that this'was not so. Referring to the Hill 110 said' that it extended tlio powers of tlieVPublic Trusteo in directions that wore'desirable. Ho would like to seo tho institution develop as it had been going: on'for many year's" "niiff lio saw no need fdr: the appointment of advisory trustees.. Ho did believe that tho Public Trusteo could with advantage bo appointed a custodian trustee.

Tho Lawyers Defended. Tho Hon. 0. SAMUEL said io ;; acreod.' with Mr. Sinclair that v ",yelief, of tho Public Trustco from liability if ho acted 011 tho advico of an advisory trustee was dangerous. Ho thought that section should bo omitted. Ho did not agreQ with Mr. Sinclair that it would ho improper to give tho Pitblic Trustco the right; • in ■ extreme cases, and subject to"appeal to tho Supreme Court to order that the costs of an inquiry, into tho affairs of a private trust .estate should be paW eithor by the applicants or by -the trustees. tie-took it that at present.!tho-' profit from, tho Public TriiSt Office' went: into /t'lvo Consolidated iFundi: and'hejwould like Mr.. Rigg and-others to know; thatr although tho legal "services' given by the office were sometimes freo, the'legal costs were anticipated in commission. •■How very willing would* niivny private practitioners'be to . do . tho work done by tho Public Trusteo. for .tho commission .collected by-tho^Public Trustee!;.. "(Mr.. - Bell: Hear, hear") Clauso-33'seemed to provide thai no moro of the profits of tho office would be paid to tho Coli-'. solidated Fund to be used for tho benefit of tlio people of tho Dominion. Ho was not sure that this was 'wise, -especially as it was provided that tho. profits might be spent -on -buildings for the -use of tho Public' Trustee or otherwise. Surely thcro were enough .inducements already to spend money on' oxpensive buildings in tho centres of population. This was another i inducement to continuo this extravagance instead of using the money through the Consolidated Fund for tho development of the country. Regarding what Mr. Rigg had said, it must be admitted even by him that no law reform had ever been carried except through the agoncy of lawyers, and ho was certain'that much!of tho success of tho Publio"'.Trust Office was duo to the co-operation and liclp of tho legal profession. It wa3 no slight on tho Public Trustco to'sot-up tho inquiry. What was wanted'was that the institution should have "the couficlonco of tho people, and to ensure that, it deserved that confidence there must be'constant supervision. Every office needed for its buccoss periodical invostigtition, nncl sue:: an im vtigntion was very necessary in tho interests of tho public. Por-

•sonally Jio Jiad nothing to say aeainst •tho Public Trust Offico, and ho thought ho .could show clearly that most members- of the legal profession rejoiced in tho success of the Public Trust Office, and lycro very ready to assist it in ways that only lawyers know were possible. Doubtless somo members of tho .had lost business owing to tho .growth of tho business of the Public - Trust Office, and they felt sore about it," but becauso of tho soreness of a few practitioners if was not fair to accuso . the'wholo legal profession of hostility to thd office. But there was an idea, quito unfounded, that tho •Public Trustee'did not manago estates entrusted to-Jiim as economically as ho ought, but this-idea was not inspired by' members of tho legal pro- 1 l'ession. Tho Hon. C. H. MILLS said he believed tho Public Trust Offico to be a thoroughly good institution, and lie thought that in somo particulars tho Bill would increase its usefulness. • Suspicions of Lawyers. The Hon. J. T. PAUL said that the anxiety .that had no doubt existed in 'tho minds of- many people as to whether tho Public Trust Offico was not being..undermined by somo insidious influence would bo considerably allayed as soon.as.they understood the-Bill. He was still unconvinced by Mr. Samuel's expression of opinion that tho attack on tho Publicjj'rust Offico had not come from the legal,profession. ■Mr. J. B. Calfan: What proof have you for saying that the legal profession attacked the Public Trust Office? Mr. Bell: Ho's talking about something ho knows nothing about. Mr. Paul: Thats a matter of opinion. Mr. Bell: Hear, hear. . • Mr. Paul said that a simple way out of the difficulty,, and to romove the misconception existing, was to mako public the representations of tho law societies to tho Commission. Did not tho Minister know that resolutions had been passed by many organisations in support of the Public Trust Office? Mr. Bell: No, I don't know that. Who passed them? The trades and labour councils, 1 suppose. Mr. Paul said that several trades councils had passed resolutions on tho question. Mr. Bell: Oh, thoy passed resolutions, about tho Amokura and all kinds _of things.. - , Mr. Paul defended tho trades coun-, cils, -and-'Said 'their resolutions on matters of public interest wore usually intelligent. , - ;

THE MINISTER'S REPLY. EXTRANEOUS COMEDY. The Hon. H. D. BELL said he thought it well that ho should reply to tho criticisms raised when the Committee stage of tho Bill was reached. Ho did not proposo to, reply to the extraneous niattor introduced into the debate and ho thought it extremely unfortunate that it' should bo introduced. Of course, '.Mr. . lligg had been quite in Order, but ho wished the honourable gentleman would take a privato members' day for tho expression of his feelings, otherwise it would be impossible to get Government business through. AVithout attempting .to reply to this matter, ho would refer to 0110 comic incident Of which Mr. Paul was evidently not aware. Ho (Mr. Bell) had becii president, of tho New Zealand Law-So-' cicty, and it was a distinction of which ho was vory 'proud. It was said that tho legal-profession were insidiously or violently attacking tho Public Trustee, and reference was occasionally made to a conferonco which took place between the Public Trustee and himself before he had the honour of being a Minister of the Crown.. Most of those who refer-, red to it assumed that tho conference was held with Mr. Bell after he became a 'Minister. . Tho comic feature of the business was that it was upon the opinion and the reports of the president of tho Zealand Law Society, and tho circulars issued by him,, that tho Public Trustee relied now in his defence, to ■sh'ow'that ho (the Public Trustee) was accurate and consistent in his method. This was extremely comic, in view of what Sir. Paul now said. Mr. Paul had declared that those were tho attackers of tho Public Trusteo, on tho head and front of whom the Public ..Trustee relied as his defender. At any 'rate, tho suggestion that the president 'of'the New Zealand Law Society was against him was repudiated with horror by the Public Trusteo. The Bill was read a second time on the voices.

IRRIGATION. Tho Irrigation and Water Supply Bill (tlio Hon. H. D. Bell) was road a second time. /WELLINGTON CITY. ' The Wellington City Empowering and Amendment Bill (the Hon. C..M. Luke) was passed through Committee, reported without amendments, read a : third time, and-passed. PENSIONS. Tho, Pensions Bill (tho Hon. H. D. -Bell) [Was committed and reported with a few minor amendments. Tho Council rose at 4.50 p.m.