IN COMMITTEE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1851, 10 September 1913, Page 4

IN COMMITTEE.

METHODS OP APPROPRIATION. CRITICISM REBUTTED. At 3 p.m. the House went into Committeo upon a number of Bills, of which tho first was the Land Transfer Amendment Bill (Mr. Herdman). This Bill was reported with a few technical amendments. . Irrigation. The Irrigation and Water Supply Bill was next considered. Mr. 6. W. Russell objected strongly to tho provisions of the following clause: — "All moneys raised under the authority of this Act shall as, and when raised, bo paid into tho Public Works Fund, to the credit of a separate account, to be called 'The Irrigation and Water-supply Account,' and shall from timo to timo without further appropriation than this Act bo applied by tho Minister for Public Works as he thinks fit towards the opening up and development of land for settlement in and country, and in particular in constructing, purchasing, or otherwise acquiring water-race 3, water rights, and other works for irrigation and water-supply in connection with or in aid of the mining and agricultural industries, and in maintaining, carrying on, and utilising such works." > Mr. Russell contended that in effect the clause gave a .cheque for £100,000 to tho Minister for Public Works, without any' appropriation by tho House or . presentation of >any statement of the works upon which the money was to bo expended. Mr. Russell broke off, to remarV aggressively: "I see the Minister for Railways smile!" •Mr. Herries: I always smile when you get in tho soup.; Mr. Russell: There is no soup about this, not even a flavour of garlick. Mr. ilassey: You will have to eat the leek presently. Mr. Russell said that tho hon. gentleman had eaten so many leeks that ho had lost the flavour. He objected to the power it was proposed to take to acquire existing .irrigation works, without the tranaactian boing submitted to tho House. ' " | In the Beginning. ' Mr. Fraser: Where does itTJegin ? Mr. Russell: Where does what begin? Mr. Fraser.: The power—we have had it for years. • Tho Prime. Minister said that anyone would have thought, to hear tho hon. gentleman's speech, that the provision in this' Bill was quito a new thing, and had never been heard of on any. previous occasion. Mr. Russell had referred to a power taken by past Governments of transferring votes from one purpose to another. Under that power, money voted for a railway or road in Otago could be spent upon a railway or road in tho north of Auckland.. There was nothing of that sort in this Bill. Money was boing, appropriated in the Bill in the ordinary way. The clause objected to . would be found-in the Appropriation Act of last year, and in previous Appropriation Acts. It had been brought forward on this occasion because objection had been taken, very properly, to such a. l clause boing laid before Parliament in tho Appropriation Act which came down in the last moments of the session. No New Power. -• The Hon. W. Fraser said that' no now power was being taken. It had been: the practice for the Government for years past to buy wator-races whenever they thought fit, and without first obtaining the sanction of Parliament. He knew of one case in which £14,000 was sperit upon a w.ater-race, and Parliament did not know anything about it for many long months afterwards.

Mr. 'Russell contended' that tho appropriation in. the. Bill before tho Houso was very different to the clauso ii) the Appropriation Bill. Under tho Bill the Government was not compelled to give any. account of the money spent under tho appropriation. | He moved to strike out from the clauso the words "without further appropriation than this Act." ■■'. Tho Hon. W. Fraser pointed out that it was customary to give tho Government carte blanche to buy estates up to the value of £500,000 per annum. Mr. Russell: That's an entirely different thing. ■; Mr. Fraser said that it was not. Tile idea was to enable the Minister to acquire a water-race when it seemed advisable to do so.

' The Prime Minister said that tho 1910 Appropriation Act of the Ward Government contained a clause identical with that to which tho member for Avon had taken exception. It would not be a proper thing to tie the Minister for Public Works down to spending money only upon objects which he had previously notified Parliament about. The hon. gentleman was Jipt prepared to trust tho present Government. ' Mr. .Russell: Only to a -modorato ex-' tent.'* Mr. Fraser said that, in bringing down tho Public Works Statoment he would advise tho House as to any specific objects upon which it had been decided to spend money appropriated under tho Bill. Mr. Russell said that it was plain that there was no room for reform in this matter. Tho Government, a a in so many othor things, was following in tho footstops of its predecessors. Mr. G. Witty said that it was no doubt intended to spend the bulk of this money in Central Otago. Tho Minister had told him that tho monoy would be raised at tho rate of £30,000 or £40,000 a year. The Hon. W. Fraser: Some of it is for the West Coast. Mr. Witty: You don't call that an arid country do youP 1 should call it a liquid country. _ A member: Very liquid. The Prime Minister said that the bulk of the money was intended to carry on works already in progress in Central Otago. Ho believed that this enterprise wduld pay. • ' . Tho amendment was negatived on the voices, and the Bill was reported without amendment. , LAND DRAINACE. BATING POWERS EXTENDED. The noxt Bill dealt with was the Land. Drainage Amendment Bill. At tno suggoßtiou of Mr. .Witty, th.4

Prime Minister agreed to amend a rating clause. As drafted it provided that, a Land Drainago.Hoard might raise a rato exceeding six farthings in tho £. As amended, the clauso authorises a rate exceeding six farthings, but not exceeding twelve farthings. As drafted, tho Bill provided that a rato might bo lovicd upon presentation of a petition signed by not, less than three-fourths of the ratepayers representing three-fourths of tho rateable valuo. An amendment was agreed to reducing tho proportion of ratea bio valuo to one-half. Tho period within which objections to a rato may bo lodged with a board waß extended from 14 to 28 days., Mr. D. Buddo proposed an amend-, ment providing for tho imposition of an acreago rate, at the' option of the board. This was opposed by tho Primo Minister and Sir Walter Buchanan on tho ground that it might impose a sorious hardship on owners of poor land. Mr. Witty supported the amendment. . Eventually the Primo Minister agreed to incorporate an amendment providing that, as an alternative, tho board might imposo a rate upon an acreage basis, oil a graduated scale, according to tho clastho lands of the district. Oppositionists objected that this was a meagre concession, but tho amendment was agreed to. Tho Bill was reported with amendments at 4.55 p.m. IRRIGATION SCHEMES. , FOR CENTRAL OTAGO} Tho Bills dealt with in Committeo wore read a third time. On tho motion that the Irrigation and Watersupply Bill be read a third timo, Mr. U. Witty (Riccarton) ' asked whether all the money to bo raised would bo borrowed'this year. Mr. Allen: No, only so much as is to bo spent. Mr. Witty said he did not object to money being borrowed for useful works, and he recognised that Central Otago could not go on without irrigation. Mr. AJlen: Wo had to pay for your commitments.

Mr. Witty said he did not object to the raising of money, or tho spending of money so long as it was spent wisely, but ho did object to the present Government's change of attitude on this matter since they camo into office.

The Hon. J. Allen said ho had been amused, as he frequently was, .by Mr. Witty. Did ho or did ho not object to the Government spending money in Central Otago when he admitted that the scheme could be carried out? 'Tho reason why the Bill was brought 1 down was to authorise the borrowing of money instead of perpetuating the annual farce of providing for it in a clause' 'of the Appropriation Bill, power to borrow under which lapsed on March 31 of each year. This meant that the money could not bo raised when it was needed. It was not right to say that tho present Government wero responsible for committing ttho country to .expenditure on irrigation in Central Otago. That had been done years ago by the previous Government, and supported by the present Government. Hi's own opinion v.-as that irrigation would make Central Otago a veritablo Garden of Eden, and that tho direct and indirect return to the country would be considerable. He said tho Reform party had never been opposed to the borrowing of money, but they did object to the borrowing of hugo sums of money for such purposes as hydro-electric schemes. W'hat should havo been done was to test one of the water-power schemes first, but tho "scattor-cash" , Government had committed tho country to a number of these schemes all over tho country. £ ;Mr. W. D. 'S. Macdonald;-.(Bay of Plenty) said ho would "not " object to tho spending of £100,000 in Central Otago if the Minister oould assure tho House that it would bo a payable proposition for tho country. Mr. G. Lauren son (Lyttelton) expressed his satisfaction to seo tho Bill go through.

The Hon. W. Fraser (Minister for Public Works) said ho had been very gratified to hear the speeches of the member for tho Bay of Plenty, and the member for Lyttelton. There seemed to be somo misapprehension as to whether tho Government proposed to go in for a new scheme. Tko'fact was that the Government had no new scheme whatever, but they wero going on merely with those already embarked, upon. The ,land in Central Otago would become very productive if water could be applied to it, and tho Bill did not deal with schemes. It merely enabled tho Government to acquire water racos and tho liko. for tho purpose of using the water for irrigation. On one of the threo schemes of irrigation a private company was now prepared to spend £25,000, and he was very glad to know that people wero ready to spend the money and so relievo tho State of tho necessity for borrowing it.

The Private Company. He oxplained how it had occurred that a private company had taken over the irrigation of a particular flat. Every ono of the settlers had asked him to allow • the company 'to go on with tho enterprise, preferring tho company's proposals to ■• those previously by the Government. He had not' sought tho company, nor 'had the company come to' him. Tho Bottlers had neon the first to approach him in the mat. ter. He was satisfied too that the company's scheme would bo a much bettor ono for supplying water than the scheme which tho • Government had thought of undertaking. . When tho irrigation scheme was brought to fruition, it would mean that a useless countryside would sustain 150 to 200 families.

Mr. G. TV. Russell (Avon) said lie did not propose to offor any opposition to the third reading of the Bill, because it wis simply carrying out the policy of the previous Government. He was not sure, however, whether the Government were wise in confining their efforts to tho one district of Central Otago. He thought there were other arid districts which would become cultivable rich land if treated with water. He hoped the Minister had adequately protected tho interests of tho country in the arrangement ho had made with tho company, for there wa« a danger of our great natural resources like water supply' falling into tho hands of private people. On© objection ho had to tho Bill was that there was nothing in it which prevented the Minister from spending the money appropriated in any district, not necessarily Central Otugo, and not necessarily on irrigation. The Minister had such wide powers under tho Bill that ho was practically asking tho House for a blank cheque for £100,000. Ho did not bolievo Ministers should liavo power to transfer the expenditure of big sums of publio money. Something Practical. Mr. P. Scott (Otago Central) said that although there had been a vote of £100,000 for irrigation in Central Otago, nothing practical had been done until'fifteen months ago. Tho late Government no" doubt originated the scheme, but it remained for. the present Government to. put, thp scheme into operation. -He had i)i> fear aa to tho success of the scheme, and he was confident that it would pay interest and sinking fund on the moneys borrowed, and also tho cost of maintenance. He looked forward to the time'when Otago Central would bo carrying as denso a population 'as any part of tho Dominion. Mr. F. Mander (Marsden) supported tho Bill. Mr. L. M. lsitt (Christchurch North) said tho point the Opposition were making was that it was wrong to vote largo sums of money to a Minister to spend when and where he liked,, and alrapjt oa what he liked. Was tbia # sound priaciploP, The monex might be.

spent not in tho interests of the country, hut for political purposes. Mr. A. Harris (IVaiitomata) said he had visited Central Otago with other members of Parliament recently ,and ho had no doubt that the money would bo reproductively oxpended. Tho Hon. W. F. Massey, in reply, said he wished to say something about ono or two points raised by tho member for Avon. Ho had visited Otago Central, and lie was convinced that the apparently poor soil in tho district could bo mado fertilo by the application of water. The best fruit in tho Dominion was grown in Central Otago, and he believed that a good and profitable market for our fruit would bo developed in South America. The hon. member had referred in somewhat disparaging terms to private enterprise. Ho (Mr. Massoy) considered that private enterprise should bo encouraged in every possible way. Public utilities should bo controlled where possiblo by the State or local bodies, out where this was not possiblo there should be no dog-in-the-manger policy.of excluding private enterprise. The Primo Minister instanced branch railway -lines, contending that where it was not possiblo for the Government to build these lines, local bodies or companies should be allowed to do. it. In all cases, where local bodies were willing to build these lines (if the State could not do it) tbey should be allowed to undertake the work. • Mr. Buddo: And the Government should fix the rates. Mr. Massey i Yes, I don't'think private companies should havo a right to exploit the public, oven when they havo tho enterprise to build railways. • Mr. Brown : What would it have been but for public enterprise? Mr. Massey: I have no fault to find with public enterprise. Tho appropriation clause which had been criticised, ho continued, was practicallv the clause which had appeared in the. Appropriation 'Bill for three years, and certainly for two years, prior to tno Government taking office. Reforring to a remark made by Mr. Isitt (who had quoted a nowspaper as saying that Mr. Massey was. too honest to become-a successful Prime Minister), the Primo Minister raised a laugh by. saying that not ono newspaper in New Zealand had ever referred to Mr. Isitt as too honest a man to become a successful politician. The hon. gentloman had spoken about tho handwriting on tho wall and indications of tho time of the Government coming to an end. He believed that tho' handwriting was on the wall for Beveral of the members of tho House. Mr. .Vigor Brown: Name a few of them. . » Mr. Massey -said that the fact remained that whatever happened to individual members, the present Government would control the affairs of this country for many, years to come. , The Bill was read a third time and passed. Tho Land Drainage Amendment Bill was also put through its final stages.