THE ESTIMATES.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1836, 23 August 1913, Page 6

THE ESTIMATES.

DEBATE ON FIRST ITEM,

LAI® SETTLEMENT.

LOAN RAISING OPERATIONS.

Tho Houso went into Committee on the Estimates at 5.15 p.m., and immediately adjourned until 7.M p.m. When it resumed in tho evening, on tho first item,

Mr. Witty asked why tho Public Service Commissioners' salaries wero included witih thoso of the Judges. Also, ho expressed a hope that the Minister for Pnblio Works would push on tho construction of the new Parliamentary Buildings, in order that members might bo relieved as soon as possible from sitting in a crowded and ill-ventilated Chamber.

Mr. Davey urged that apprentices in tho railway workshops should bo accorded facilities for attending technical classes. He described what waa being done in. Australia, and contended that as good engineers should bo turned out in New Zealand as in any part of Australa-

sia. So far, the Minister for Railways had declined to accedo to this request, but ho should r.eeo'nsidor his decision. The Government compelled private employers to pay for the technical instruction of their apprentices, and should treat its own employees equally well. An Unexpended Vote. Mr. Russell 6aid that the Minister for Lands had boon granted wC331,000 to purchase land for settlement, but had spent of this sum only .£231,000, thus going-' back on his declaration for. settlement, more settlement, and still more settlement. During last year the Ward Government increased tho number of Crown tenants by 970, while the present Government had increased tho number by 10G6, an increase of 96. Mr. Russell contended that a table recently 'quoted by the member for Waipawa in regard to tho broaking-up of largo estates, and a statement on the subject in. the Budget, were evidence of the success of the Ward Government's policy, and not of the policy of tho present Government. . ■ The Position Explained. Tho Prime Minister said that ho could answer the hon. , gentleman,- but could not satisfy him, because ho was not out to bo satisfied. If the Government spent more than the vote allowed by Parliament, the hon. gentleman accused it of extravagance and wasteful expenditure. If the whole of tho votes were not expended, the hon. gentleman blamed tho Government for that. Mr. Russell: Yes, I get you both ways! Mr, Massey: Tho lion, gentleman will find that ho is not going to get mo either way! When tho figures came along tho lion, gentleman would find that the number of settlers had been increased for the year by something like 2000. It hftd to bo remombered that the licenses of all pastoral run's falling in during the year liad been held up pending legislation, which would be possod within a few "weeks. He admitted right away that ■lie had not expended tho wholo of tho vote by .£IOO,OOO, but if the hon.. gentleman would look at the credits he would find that -an abnormal sum had oomo in during tho year in the way of credits. Tho sum total of these oredits was ,£48,999 and tho expenditure was reduced accordingly.

Mr. Russell: That comes by payment into the fund of the cash sales money?

Mr. Massey: No; on account of services to other Departments. Details were:— Laiid for Settlements, .£8999; Stamps Department, X 8360; North Island Main Trunk Railway, .£8973 ; Native Land Settlement, <£GI7G; , National Endowment,

'dC5081; Standard Surveys, ; jfarine Department, ..£403; Miscellaneous, ,£9897; total, .£48,999, as nearly as possible half stlie sum referred to by the hon. member. There wero credits overy shilling of which had como to tho Lands Department. Part of tho survey vote remained' in hand becauso some contracts wero not completed at the end of tho financial year; Loan Exponses. • ' Sir Joseph Ward asked tho Minister for Hmance what rato was paid for underwriting, what rate was paid to the who undertook to obtain tlib unr darwriting, and what raito was paid to; tho. Bank of England in connection with the raising of the three million loan. Ho thought tho honourable gentleman, should say whether these rates wero lower than the Tatos jiaid far tho last 'loan raised by him (Sir Joseph. Wiard), or whether any other one of the. oversea Dominions obtained loans at less rates for underwriting and other charges thaji those paid by New Zealand. The Hon. J. Mien said the rate for underwriting was ooiia per cent., the rate paid to the brokers was } per cent., and tho rate paid to the Bank of England was J per cent, The rates paid by, the Australian States were, ho had found, exabtly the same. Mr..Myers: That only accounts for 1J per cent. ' _ Mr. Allen: There is an- additional } per cent, for securing underwriting, making'the' total charges 13 per cent. There liad been no alteration for a number of years in. this rate.

Sir Joseph Ward asked the Minister for Finance whether any of the rates paid in the timo of the Ward Govern-, raent were higher than 'tho rates which had been paid in respect of tho larst loan* Mr. Allen repeated his previous statement thnt the charges were tho same. He teped that in future New Zealand mishit pet loans on better terms as at presomt it could not.

Sir Joseph Ward said that cme of the good effects of the honourable gemtlenmn being in office was to remoro from his mind any doubts h'o might have had which h'ad given rise to reflections ho • had cast upon tho operations of the fomier Treasurer. He

quoted from Hansard to show that Mr. Allen had found fault with' thte charges of 1} per cent, for services in tho raising of loans. The fact was. as 'had been stated, that New Zealand had paid the samo rates as Australia and Canada and tho other oversea dominions. The Supply of Hansards, Mr. G. Witty raised again tho question of . members getting a larger number of Hansards—loo copies, instead of 75 copies. ■ Replying to Mx. Witty, the Hon. J. Allen said that some misunderstanding Heemod to exist as to tho figures in tho Budget relating to the Advances Office. Hitherto money paid in for the purposo of securing a larger mortgago had been credited as a repayment Tho Government was asked to renew mortgages, but if this were done tho Government would have no money to advance to tho new settlor anxious to go on tho land. In this way the money would be reserved for use to incroaso production, which was tho object to be aimed at. In regard to advances generally, it was true that in tho year 1911 the amount of money advanced was very high, and everybody knew what for. In tho previous year, however, tho supplies of money had .been cut olf altogether. THE PUBLIC SERVICE. HEADS OF DEPARTMENTS. The Hon. J. A. Millar asked what would be the cost to the country of tho iucreaso of salaries under the _ new classification list, and why tho Commissioners should not havo power to fix maximum salaries for the heads of Departments. Why the salaries of heads of Departments should 1)0 kept in. t'ho hands of tho Ministers he could not understand. Tho samo principle ought to apply to overy Public Servant and there should be no exceptions. Failing a definitely stated maximum and minimum for heads of Departments, as for subordinate officials, power of patronago was left in tho hands of Ministers. ■ Mr. A. E. Glover urged that individual workers should bo allowed to obtain homes undor tho Government scheme, the present arrangement regarding groups of houses in each locality being done awav with. Cost of Classification. Tho Hon. A. L. Herdinan said that it was impossible at that stage to givo information as to tho amount required (o make provision for -the increases in salaries under tho new classification. The classification was provisional, and would only, tako definito shape after tho appeals had been hoard. Last year it had been estimated that tho additional increase over and above tho normal increase would be .£IO,OOO or ,£12,000. Tin had since been led to understand by Uie Commissioner that the additional iucreaso would bo MMGtliinK less. Tho wholo Eoaltdoa would' bo definitely wttlod shea

the Public Service Commissioners' report was laid on the table and the classilication list had been finally dealt with by him (the Commissioner). As to tlio administrative division, it included oil Pub-

lic Son-ants gazetted into it bv the Governor. Salaries of persons in t'lie administrative division were to bo voted annually by Parliament. In this the Australian practice had been followed. Heads of Departments performed varied duties, and that was the real reason why salaries of these officials wero not uniform, and were voted annually. A Vicious Anomaly. ' ' Sir Joseph \\ard asked wliero tlio normal increase of salaries in the Public , Service would bo provided. What did normal" and "additional" increase mean ? The exception in the ca'so of heads of Departments was a vicious anomaly, which would create discontent amongst tlio other members of the service. His own opinion was that Parliament should control tlio whole affair, lxit in any case there 6hould bo no distinctions. Mr. Herdman said that last year the 'total increases to officers amounted to some <£30,000. When tlio Public Service Bill was before the House lasO year, ho had been asked what additional sum this classification scheme involved. From estimates then supplied, ho said .£IO,OOO or .£12,000. That was what the actuary at tho time estimated. It was impossibio to say what increases would take place until appeals had been heard, settled, and done with. It was impossible to,'assemble heads of Departments, with their varied duties, in a single grado with, the fixed maximum and minimum salaries. Pastoral Licenses. Mr. G. Forbes complained that tho failure of tho Prime Minister to deal with the land question in a comprehensive way last year, had made it necessary to hold over tho question of how to deal with small grazing runs and pastoral leases. Extensions of time had to be given to lessees, and tho result was that tho.country had lost increased rental for tho year. Ho ...hoped tho Bill would come down early, so that it would Lo given proper consideration, and 60 that Parliament might bo done with land legislation for some years. No more important legislation could occupy tho attention of tho 1 House.

The Horn. W. P. Massev said tio agreed that it was desirable to have the Land Bill dealt with before the end of the 6ession, but ho did mot agroo that there liad been- any nndue haste in tho passing- of tho legislation of last session. Ho did not agree that tliero would bo loss of revenue, because it was not true that tho revenue from pastoral licenses kept on increasing. The fact was that tho carrying capacity of tho run 9 in Canterbury and Otago was continually going down, and the ren'tals had to bp reduced. These, grazing runs were in n somewhat complicated position, and they could not be dealt with under one Act. In tho recess ho had gathered snmo information about pastoral licenses, and ho was' now in a position give the House a lead in dealing with pastoral licenses. Ho would ask Parliament to give the lessee a tenure under which his improvements would bo adequately protected. Mr. .T. H.'Bradney said tho Government should take caro in advancing loans 'to workers that tho money was not expended by the borrower on n jerry-built house. The loans were, ho said, being used by tho jerry-builders to exploit tho workers. 1 Salaries and Other Matters, The Hon. A. T. Ngata drew attention to the fact that tho Prime Minister's chief secretary was not mentioned in the classification, list. Mr. Massey: Ho is in the railways. Mr. Ngata asked whether there were not other secretaries, who were in. classified Departments. Ho al9o pleaded for increases. ill salary to Judges of tho Native Land Court, who had a real griev-. a.nce, in view of the fact that the status of magistrates was to bo considerably improved. ,He would like the Government to declare their Native land proposals. Tho Hon. D. Buddo congratulated the Prinio Minister on having got nearer to a solution of the problem of how to deal with pastoral leases. Tito deterioration, in tho runs in Canterbury had. beon very serious in later years owing to the improvements of tenants not being protoct-. ed. Ho urged that better .salaries should be paid to surveyors ' and to district valuers.'

Mi*. W. A. Voitah agreed with Mr. Bradney that a good deal of jerry-build-ing was going oil under tho Advances (o Workers Act. In fact, he had heard the Act called "The Advances to Speculators Act,"' though he did not think that liamo was quite justified. Ho suggested that tho Government might get over some of this trouble by selling'-surplus timber from the Government sawmill for work-

ers J homes in the North Island. Ho suggested that tliero was an anomaly in the law which permitted a worker under one. Act to |jot a homo for a. deposit of ,£lO, and which did not permit of a worker getting a' house if he had a section worth joO, unless lie had other money as well. Ho would like to see tho Department encourage tho building of concrete and brick houses, for tho. timber now being used was much inferior to that used formerly. The Native Minister. The Hon. W. H. Herries replied to what Mr. Davey lmd said re engineering cadets and tho technical school. Ho saw 110 need, ho said, to permit railway workshop cadets to go to 'technical schools in. working hours, because thoy could learn as much in the workshops as they would learn in any technical school. ln,reply to Mr. Ngata, he said that ho recognised that he would liave to provido for increasing tho salaries of; Native Land Court Judges, and he hoped to be ablo to do it'this year in the Supplementary Estimates. At the same time he would remind tho honourable gentlemen 'that Native Land Court Judges drew a great deal in travelling expenses. He did not admit that he had concealed. his policy

in dealing with Native land. On tho contrary, he had been, if anything, 'too open.' Ho .hoped this year to introduce a Bill to deal with the West Coast Native Reserves which would bo satisfactory to both parties. Grumbles About Defence Vote. Mr. R. M'Callum advised tho colleagues of Mr. Allen to keep him in check in tho matter of tho defence vote, which, he said, was increasing too rapidly. If tho defenco voto were reduced, it would bo possiblo to devdto more to education. There was a strong feeling that tho expenditure of a million on defence was tar beyond what this countiy could afford. Dr. A." K. Newman said tho cost of building houses in New Zealand was without parallel in any other part of the world. He would suggest to tho Government that inquiries bo instituted as to whether other cheaper and more durable material than wood could be used in New Zealand. He believed that by making cottages to uniform plans, it would bo possible to reduce tho cost of them by 30 or 40 per cent, below that which was at present usual under tho system by which' every worker asked for his own special design of cottage. Mr. H. Poland urged that teachers' salaries was tho most urgent matter demanding tho attention of tho Ministry. Mr. G. Laurenson« supported what Dr. Newman had said about tho need for reducing tho cost of homes to working men. Ho maintained with Mr. M'Callum .that too much money was being spent on defenco. He believed tho Ministers had now too licavy duties,' and Ho would support a proposal to appoint two additional Ministers or to appoint Parliamentary Under-Sccrotaries. Mr. W. D. S. Mac Donald said that besides teachers, ' many up-country postmasters and postmistresses wero very 'poorly paid. i •