FINANCIAL DEBATE

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1833, 21 August 1913, Page 8

FINANCIAL DEBATE

MR. PAYNE'S PLEDGES. : "DARK PAGE IN HIS HISTORY." Over "an hour and a. half was spent in discussing" -*roplie9 to questions. Th© Financial Debate was resumed at 4.30 P 'Mr. A. HAEEIS (Waitemata), commenting upon the statements made on the previous evening by Mr. Payne about his election pledge, said that the member for Grey Lynn would be wise to leave that dark page in his history "unexplored. Statements by Mr. Payno, botiveen the_

first and second ballots, that he had thrown in his lot with the Massey Government, so far as a no-confidence motion was concerned, had been recorded time after time. Mr. Harris went on to state that Mr. Payne had not visited Grey Lynn since two or three weeks after the February session, and was afraid to go there. He quoted a statement by Mr. Payne, recorded in "Hansard," which included tho following:—"lf-at any time I deem it expedient to break a pledge for the benefit of the people I represent, then 1 shall break that pledge without compunction." As to Jlr. Payne's statement that he was the only member in the House subject to recall by his constituents. Mr. Hftrris rend a newspaper report of a meeting at Auckland, at ■ which* Mr. Payne stated that if the nine thousand electors of Grey Lynn signed a petition asking him to resign, he would not do su. Leaving the subject of Mr. Payne and his pledges, Mr. Harris gave an emphatic denial to .some statements published in the local anti-Reform newspaper. He ridiculed a prediction advanced by the same newspaper that there was likely to be a dissolution within a few weeks, and remarked that the source of the prediction made one think 'that there must b'e something in the accusation that the newspaper- in question was controlled by the brewers. Mr. Harris was subjected to many interruptions by Mr. Payne and other Oppositionists as he applied to the member for Avon a ({notation from Bacon: "It was' prettiiv devised of Aesop: a flv gat upon the chariot wheel and said: Whata dust do I raise. ..."

Eventually the Speaker had to intimate that if his demand for order were not respected he would have to take other steps. '

Mr. Harris, in concluding,- assured the Opposition that thev would wauder a long time in the wilderness before they regained the promised land. THE COOK ISLANDS. MINISTER REPLIES TO CHARGES. ' The Hon. Dr. POMARE said that perhaps he would not liavp spoken in the dobate but for the tirade delivered by tho member for Christchurch North 011 the previous night. Ho went on to detail the allegations made by Mr. Isitt. The latter, he said, had distinctly stated that if it had not been for what the member for Paliiatua had said he would not have unbosomed himself in,tho House. Mr. Isitt: Quite right. . Dr. Pomare: What an admission! Mr. Isitt: I should have waited until tho report was put on tho table. Dr. Pomare deflected for a moment to throw compliments at some of the members of tho Opposition.- To Mr. Russell he applied a- Maori saying which he translated as: "A dog's- nose, hit by every hand and kicked by every foot." Mr. Russell: Yon have had a lot of it. Dr. Pomare said that, every day in the House Mr. Russell was hit on the nose by every band and every foot, and he was getting it then. . Mr. Russell: There must be some high step-dancers about them. Dr. Pomare went on to speak about the member for Riccarton whom he accused of always "concurring with what the other hon. gentlemen had said." Judge M'Cormack's Report. There was notlhing- in, tegard to the administration of the Cook Inlands, he went joi\ to remark, that they were afraid to -lay on the table of the House. Judge M'Cormack's report was not asked for by the House. It- was sent t° him in response to a special letter which Tie (the .Minister) luul sent in oTd'er to obtain' the report for his own inioruiation. It was never ordered by the House. Now that tho hon. gentleman had asked for. it, he had his answer. It would be laid on the table of the .House.

Mr. Isitt: The member for Taumarunui asked for it. ~,,',.

Dr. Pomiajre: Did lie put it on the Order Paper?' Kegarddng the charge that beforu ■All*. Northoroft reached the islands the administration was in charge ot an official who had been associated with a policeman in practically condoiiing a lelony, did tho Iron.' gentleman know tnat Mr. Stevenson was left in charge of these islands by his own Administration ?

Mr. Isitt: I have nothing to do with the last Administration. Dr. Pomare: If Mr. Stevenson was not fit to be left in charge of these islands, the Mackenzie and Ward Administrations were responsible for it, because in lUOli Mr. Stevenson was left in charge of the islands as Deputy Commissioner. Ho was again left in charge in 1909, and again in 1912, prior to the present Government taking office. Why had the Administration that the ion. gentleinau supported : not dismissed the man if he . had compounded a i'alony?

Mr. Isitt: I have nothing to do with that. .

. Dr. Pomare described in detail tfhe felony which Mr. Stevenson was accused of compounding. A lad of 18, he stated, embezzled a sum of money. This was refunded, and the lad was allowed,to escape to French territory in order to jire him another chance. Mr. Stevenson, aiterwards admitted that ho had unwittingly compounded a felony, and stated that the Inspector of Police had followed his wishes in the matter. Mr. • Stevenson was reappointed by .Tudgo M'Cormack to the office which he had filled on thr<ie previous oc-' casions when tho other Government was in office. As to Mr. Northcroft's age, the hon. gentleman was wrong again. Mr. Northcroft was 68 years of age. There were membei'3 of Parliament who were much older than Mr. Northcroft. Mr. Northcroft had' been appointed because of his long experience on tho bench and his intimate knowledge of Native affairs. It was not true that thirty names were sent in when Mr. Northcroft was appointed. Tho atjtual number of names submitted was 18. • Sergeant Holmes had resigned in tho usual way for his own. reasons, and his resignation was received in the u9ual way. Willi regard to tho gentleman who • succeeded Sergeant Holmes, that was a temporary appointment. Mr..Northcroft had written to the Minister for Justice and himself some timo ago, saying that ho waited a policeman for tho Cook Islands. Commissioner Cullen could net get a suitable policeman to go down, so this man—and probably Mr. Isitt had come upon some things about his record—was sent down. Ho repeated that the appointment was not a permanent one. Speaking after tho dinner adjournment, Dr, Pomare said that Mr. Isitt had naked whether it was not a fact that a shocking amount of bush' beer-drinking was going on. Mr. Jsitt: I said there was. Dr. Pomare said that Mr. Isitt had gone on a long fishing expedition, . Mr. Isitt: I caught something.

Dr. Pomard: Of course you did. You caught yourself! He went on to speak about the extreme difficulty of putting down bush beer-drinking in a hilly country, and where every orango was an incipient distillery. The Minister invited Mr. Isitt to say how he would deal with the problem. Next ho asked Mr. Isitt to justify his tea-drinking in Bellamy's. Bush beer-drinking was an old custom in the Islands, and it was hard to tcach old dogs new tricks, as the honourable gentleman would know if ho had any dogs. Ho had once had a dog called Fido. Fido got a bone, and he was getting another bono 'that night. Mr. Russoll: Well, there's no meat on it.

Dr. Pomare: He doesn't need any. He has been surfeited long enough. Going on to speak of "the sneaking audacity" of Mr. Isitt, he was ordered by the Speaker to withdraw the expression, and ,he did so. He ridiculed a statement by Mr. " Isitt that on a certa/in day all tlm men in Rar.qtogga sgr® Hftdjff.

tho influence of Liquor, awl asked whether the charge extended Ui live missionaries wliu lived at tile village. ■' inline M'Cormack had reported, on the evidence, of old residents in t-lio Cook Islands-, that busli beer-drinking was less prevalent in the Cook Islands than formerly. Would the honourable gentleman accept .1 ud^o M'Corinack's statement? The honourable geJitileuinu was silent again! t'egarding the death of a child at the hands of an intoxicated man, Jlr. Jsitt had asked why the man was not tried at once for the deatlr he had occasioned. The child was shot by a Native.. On tli ■ following day a trial by jury took place, before a medical man. The verdict was death by misadventure. Jlr. Northcroft fined the man .£"> for drunkenness, ami immediately wrote to YYeilliiigton to ask whether he should try the mail for manslaughter. The letter arrived on Hay 20. The papers were retnrned to P.arotonga on .Tun? 2. A trial t.lien. tool: place, and a second jury returned, a verdict of manslaughter, with a recommendation to mercy on account of tlis extreme ae"e of the miscreant, and, considering all the circumstances, the Court allowed him to go, but ordered liim to come ud for sentence whem. called upon. Mr. ISITT said that he had-been grossly misrepresented by tho Hon. Dr. Pomare. He would deny !hat lie had stated that the Minister did not know of tho resignation of Sergeant Holmes. What he had said was that as Minister for the Cook Islands he did pot receive any prompt notification of that resignation, nor of the appointment of Sergeant Holmes's successor. Ho would take the statement of the Minister that the appointment was a temporary one as an indication that the Minister would terminate the appointment. , lie denied, further, as the Minister had said that he had said that all the men tit .the yillage mentioned were drunk. What lie had Raid was that "nearly all tho men in the village were drunk, or were mote or less under tho influence of liquor.", Now, would the Minister, in fairness, apologise? Dr. Pomare: Certainly not!

Mr. Isitt: I need say nothing more about that. He further denied that he had been a supporter of the /Ward Government or of their Cook Island administration. In regard to Mr. _ \orthcroffs ■ age, he had got as near to it as possible, and discovered now that his exact age was G7 years, within eight days. A LABOUR MEMBER. THE MINISTER REBUKED. Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki) said that the Minister who had just spoken had not added in any way to the dignity of the House. The bluster, heat, and personal abuse to which Dr. Pomare had given utterance were less than should be expected from a Minister of the Crown. fir. Pomare: Take your medicine. Mr. Robertson: The Minister . should not talk shop. He contended that tho Minister had not furnished a clear answer to the charges laid. Afterwards, ho explained the circumstances of his own election to represent Otaki, and entertained the House with a disquisition on the subject of turn-coats." Tlien he reviewed at great length the official Reform publication: "Light and Liberty:" Ho contended that it had inado a slanderous attack on Labour, and that its tactics were utterly unfair. He appealed to Government supporters to play the game, and not import religious feeling into the political field in this country. Misfit Uniforms. Mr. Robertson put on record a statement, in which Mr. Payne had been interrupted during his Budget speech, to the effect that the Defence Department had incurred a gre.at dieal of expense through obtaining a large number of misfit uniforms, lie expressed a hope that before long there would be an end of the svstom under which members had to go., rap in'hand, to. the. Minister for Public Works for road and bridge grants. The statements made a few mouths ago on the subject of the expeditionary force., ho stated, he Ixflieved to have been; put forward as "feelers." ■ No doubt the .propcsaJ would be brought forward again before loikt. So far as small farmers and peoplb who lived by toil were concerned, there was very little in the Budget to give them hope, or satisfaction. Concessions had bnen granted to payors of income tax, but 110 concessions had been m'ade to people of small incomes.. A BACK-BLOCKS MEMBER.

» ACCUSATION or MEANNESS. Mr. R. AV. SMITE (Waimarino) said he had to Cud fault with tlio Budget, not so mucli on account uf what it contained as on account of what it did not contain. Ho spoke of tho promised "square deal" to workers, and said that the Government had been guilty of- such mean1105S in dealing with men on road, and railways works ■as amounted to oppression. " In the matter of supply of ammunition, for instance, the .Government w-are charging men £<l Is. 2d. move to •supplv it to "them than it actually' cost the 'Government. He dedlarsd that the Ministry which had twitted.: the late Government with having shirked local government reform, were now <loiri£ tli© very same thing themselves. They were simply paltering with the question, fishing for suggestions, and next year the .country would not be any nearer local government refonn. M hat had the Government done ill developing the backblocks f Thev had borrowed .t'lm onily mon-ey available, .£200,000, from, the Advances Department, and then pawned Government securities with a.n auctioneerin," firm for. <250.000. No wonder the backblocks settlers had had a bad wii niter. Ho had never known a tame when backblocks people had had to pay so mnch for loans on gilt-edged securities. And tho Government had done 1 nothing to open up the"'back country with railways; instead of (this they hid stopped work on six or seven lir.es. He urged the Prime Minister to give to the settlers in the Main Trunk district tilis freehold of their holdings, ns they had,been led to believe he would. He would support the present Government or any other Government which would give the freehold to the settlers oppressed by their present unsatisfactory tenure. The small grazing . ninholders had also been led to believe that they would get the freehold, and they had not got it.. As out-nnd-out freeholders, the Government should give efFeot to their promises as soon as possible, for their time of office miglut not be long. THINGS TO BE DONE, OMISSIONS OF THE OTHER PAKTY. Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmou.t) said it seemed to hiiu that both sides of tho House were in agreement that the financial position, of tiro country was satisfactory, although individual features of tho Biulget had been hotly condemned by the Opposition. For his own part ho had the utmost conlidenco in the present Minister for Finance. He would suggest that the surplus was scarcely correctly estimated, in that it contained, as revenue, i.'sfi,Uoo from the sale of Crowd lands.

Jlr. Allon.: Wo aro going to take that out of revenuo after this..

Mr. Wilkinson said ho was very glad to hear that it was so. He had always objected to the Liberal party's■ policy in this regard. It still seemed to him, however, that v many items' were charged lo the wrong accounts, so that the moneys were drawn from loan accounts and not from revenue accounts as they should havo been. Too much, money had been spimit on public buildings in this country, money which was sadly needed for more urgent works in the back-blocks. These buildings were erected out of loans, but no fund was established to renew them. He suggested that tho Minister ought to establish suoh it fund. He would like to sec the Government set up a Board of Trade or Commerce to deal especially with, the monopolistic institutions trading in this country, and also with the cost of commodities. Ho would advise the Housfc to keep a very sharp eye un tho proposals of the Ivthclburga Syndicate, whioh wanted to get hold of the I'arapara iron deposits. He did not know what tile syndicate were offering this year, but last year their proposals had been tho rover.so of favourable to New Zealand. He chided Mr. Russell for having referred to niembors of tho Ministry in quotations which were not appropriate, and which were not in good taste. He would offer a quotation which would fit Mr. Uusscll's case. Ft was from "Paradise Lost." (Laughter.)

Mr. Isitt: Is it in reference to the Gov. eminent bcnches?

Mr. Wilkinson: Yes. It is singularly appropriate whon wo coiwldor that tho paradiso tliq Jwn, gentleman yaata is ej

front seat on the Government benches. Ho read the quotation:— "He eeemcd' For dignity composed and high exploit: But all was'false and hollow; though his tongue Dropt manna, and could make the worse appear The better reason, to perplex and dash counsels." Mr. G. M. Thomson: To whom docs that refer'{ Jlr. Wilkinson: To Belial, I think. It refers to a fallen angel, anyhow. (Laughter.) He went on to approve of the Government for having proposed that the. Customs taxation should be reviewed in such a way as to relieve the poorer people from taxation. This, he believed, could, be done without the loss of revenue, for duty could very fairly be levied on motorcar chassis, which were now admitted to New Zealand free of duty. Ho was not a free trader: ho was quite prepared to give industry reasonable protection, but he would not recognise as an industry any kind of venture' which was set up and called an industry. The effect of much of the protection was to oppress the poor man, and to iet tTle rich man go free, and this state of affairs had been allowed to stand for manv vears by the Liberal Administration. 'It was a testimony to their incapacity. Ho advocated a reduction of the duty on tobacco, and an increase of the duty on beer to make up for i\. More railways were needed in the country districts, and especially in Taranaki. In his own electorate the settlers had made an offer to the Government to construct three miles and a half of railway at a cost of .i 20,000, and to hand it over unconditionallv and free of cost. Mr. Jlassey: And the Government will accept the offer. Mr. Wilkinson said he believed tho Second Ballot Act would be repealed, and he hoped that the system to be established would give tho elector tho single transferable vote. Opposition members: Hear, hear. Mr. Russell: YVe left that Bill all ready for you. . - Mr. Wilkinson: "Well, I'm in favour of it oven if it was stolen. Mr. Russell: YY'e don't mind that. Its a good Bill. 1 , The debate was adjourned on the motion of Mr. H. G. Ell, and the Houso rose at 11.40 p.m.