THE POLICE FORCE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1815, 30 July 1913, Page 6

THE POLICE FORCE.

A PARTY BATTLE.

TIIE MINISTER ASSAILED.

ASSOCIATION'S CASE.

In Committee nn the'Polica Force Bill, Mr. AY. A. \EI'J'CH criticised tho action of the Minister iu prohibiting the formation of tlie Police Association. The association, in spite of the Minister, had come info existence, l>ut it "was upon on unsatisfactory footing, and tho present saifc of affairs was subversive of discipline. Tlie arguments advanced by the Minister in justification of his opposition to the formation of the association were ldantical with the arguments which were advanced against the formation of the Amalgamated Society of liailway Servants :it tho inception of that body. He contended that tho only way to secure a clear statement of tho legitimate grievances of the Forco was to permit its members to organise, under reasonable limitations. The Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants had been formed, in spite of opposition, and to-day it was the largest an<l best trades union' in the Dominion. In advancing their own interests, tlw railway servants had done a great deal to secure the safely of the public. As to the Police Force, the Minister could not hope to secure the safety of the public unless he permitted the members of tho Force to organise oil proper, lines. The Minister might as well, attempt to hold back the sea as to prevent tho Police Forco from organising. 'J'hev must bo granted the right to speak collectively lo' the Minister. Tho existence of the Amnl-' gamritod Society of Railway Servants'lrid not in any way impaired the discipline of tho service. The Minister's Attitude. Mr. JTBRDMAN said (.hat there was t:o analogy between the liailway Service and the Polico Force. He was no foe to unionism, and recognised that, generally speaking, men had a right to band themselves together in their own interests. But the Force, particularly in a country like New Zealand, was- in a special position. It must bo a highly .disciplined force, in very much the same position as the Army or the Navy. It would be absurd to contend that the, British Army or the Navy had a right to combine and to come nut unon strike, and it would be equally absurd to contend that the Police Force should have such a right. Same time previously he had stated that lie had no objection to the Police Force joinin? T.he Public Sen-ice Association, They couid pre«ont their grievances through that association if they so desired. It would never do if tho police were permitted to .band, themselves into an exclusive association, governed and run by some prominent mail in tho Labour, movement. What would, be the result, if some industrial upheaval took, place in a community, n.iul the police ware controlled by a prominent Labour lender, instead of by the Commissioner or by tho Minister? A Minority Movement. Tlie honourable gentleman had said that the bulk of the Police Force wanted a union. He did not tbink' that this was correct. Men in country stations were generally well satisfied with their conditions, and the sa.mo implied lo tho older men in the citics. The movement in _ progress at the present time bad been initiated . by . 111*11 ■ who had joined .the'. Forco during l.lio last two years, and by n few agitators. Tlvs great bulk of the Force was not in .sympathy with thesa men. ITo declared that if they permitted the nssriiation to be formed, and to bo governed by Mr. l?osser o.r st.iio other pnmine.nt Labour leader, they could not w'itli safely run the country. The hoiKHimble gentleman had sa«l that, a. great public danger would 1» created if the discipline of the F-u-co were wcakenci.l. Ho concurred absolutely in that viow. If discipline were weakened,, (bra safety of the public would be ent'avjjp^ed. It was for that very rm."n that, he' h<"l taken im tho a,ttihuVi that l'.e bad with r-?s.i-rd to tlie formation of this assccation. Fe was that ho could net pftree with the' limuMtrable gentle"'.™. Tho fundamental difference between tVim was in this—be contended that there was 110 parallel to be drawn between the *>sSvc.i.'ifion and any union that the phli'o iniirht form. The TVtlieo Forco must, be under the direct cou'vol of the Mirr'tr and of tho Cnwn. T t would ivve" do to have the Police Force controlled or directed in any way bv sonii* peroral win i"iiirht alienate tliem from the Crown if disturbance arose. Sunqested Conditions. Mr. VEITCII said that'lm agreed that it would bo dangerous to let tho Police Association ally itself with some powerful outside Labour organisation. This, however, was unnecessary. The Railway Association was not allowed to associate itself with any outside Labour organisation, and tho samo condition might be (imposed in the cas<> of tho Polico Force. Mr. Herdman said that the condition ■would not bo north tho paper it was written 011 if there was trouble. Mr. ■ Veitcli said that tho possibility of the Police Force being called out 011 strike was not worth taking into consideration. If the members of the Forco wero called out they would forfeit all their rights to superannuation. This, coupled with the well-known loyalty of ths Force, Mipplied a sufficient safeguard. Recognition of the association would bring tho Minister into olose touch and sympathy with liis staff, and li 3 would, as a consequence, 1»3 saved many small worries. The oliicers of tho union, in order to keep up its credit, would abstain from bringing under tho notico of the Minister grievances unworthy of his consideration. What, tho Minister was doing now was forcing the Police Association under tho control of an' outside secretary. The association would never have bad an outside secretary if tho Minister had been rea-

stumble. Dr. A. K. NEWMAN raid that he could not help feeling that the Minister ; should reconsider this matter. There could ' l)o no question that a large association existed, and if it were recognised and allowed to come out ir-to tlic open tho present (lifliculfics could no d'oubt lie smoothed away. Other Countries. Mr. HETCDMAN said that, il; was incorrect to say that police associations oil the lines suggested were permitted in any liritish countries. There was an association in London, but it was restricted to social matters. If any association 011 the line-; proposed were permitted, it would be good-byo to all discipline and control of tho Police Force. Ho wasi'nti.-fled that if a I'olici 1 * Association controlled by Mr. liosscr had been in force at the time of the "Waihi strike tho trouble would scarcely have been settled yet. Mr. Hosser would, of course, had lie been in control, have prevented the members ef llie Force doing their duty at 'Waihi. He did not think that the movement to form tho association was widespread, as had been stated. He was led to understand that , out of 81G policemen in New Zealand probably 110 more than SO men were 'taking part in this business. The great majority of the men were entirely out of sympathy with the movement. Any combination 011 , the lines suggested would be subversive of discipline and would lead to a catas- , trophc if any industrial trouble arose. j Tho Right of. Appeal. j Mr. .1. A. YOUNG (Wailcato) thought i it on'.y fair that these m?n should liavo 1 snnif body through which they could I spenk collectively. lie thought repre- i srnliriinti through the I'ublio. Service As- .= million would l:o mtisfiicfr.ry. ard lie 1 would like an assurance from the Miivs- > in- that he would assist this oml. He 1 alpi approved of Die.right to appeal, and eons-id:red a tribunal slianld l:e o>t.iMish- ' el to deal with that aspect of atl'airs. Ue al-'O mentioned the ago of rrlii;:nonf i for officers in the service. There was 110 1 provision <'wi.limr with this matter in the Bill, but he considered men at the aw * of fi.'i 'dionld bo retired, in justice bo tho'n'-Tlv-a nml to Hie vouiiiter men. v V/r. W. A, VEITCII" further aUcjcd s

that Mr. Herdman was suffering from ! "strike panic." Why had he not recognised this association wli:-n asked to do so? Mr. Herdman: I was never asked. Mr. YeilcJi: Then the honourable t gentleman must have been iu a great i hurry to reluse, if lie relused without I Ix'ing asked. He went round tlio country lUiilciiLg wild statements iu the press, . saying that he refused to recognise tlio , association, and now ho admitted that 1 h<} had never been asked to recognise it. That was a splendid admission, and lio waj delighted to have it. fie liad also been informed, continued My. Yeitcli, , that an instnic-Mcji had been issued thai no member of tho Polico Force was to visit Wellington during tlio session of Parliament. Mr. Herd man: That is from one of your informants also? Mr. Veitch; No member approached me— Mr. Hcrdnvan: Who t told you that ridiculous thing? Mr. Veitch: No member anywhere lias approached me, and in justice to the Police i'orco I have been afraid to go , near tliem. I don't liko this remark - about informants. X have not gone be- ; hind his back at all. j Mr. Ilcrdniun: Very well. I apologise 1 to the lion, member. i Mr. Veitch concluded by saying that ho t wanted to help the Minister to achieve a - genuine feeling of loyalty amongst tlio ; men. i Criticism Welcomed, ! Mr. HERDMAN said that lio did not in any way resent the criticism of the e lion, gentleman, and did not regard it us ' severe. ■ It was only by having a tiling • out on the floor of the House in this iva.v 1 that they could arrive at an undorstaudf ing of the true position. The Minister t described ill detail the steps taken to } hear and record the grievances of tlio f men. lie had told the men at the four 1 centres that they could assemble to dis 0 cuss their grievances if they so desired, - and further that if individuals had griev- > ances they could forward them to him through the Commissioner. This was his • answer to the hon. gentlemen who had ' asked what facilities he meant to gko ; the men for stating tlic-ir grievances. f Mr. J. 11. BRADNEY said that it had ® been his contention ever since the trouble 1 started that it had started outside, and 8 not inside, the Force, and'represented un B , attempt by a certain section to embarrass 3 the Government. The Minister could rely upon the support of the whole population j in his district (Auckland 'AVcst). Another Critic. Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) said he was very much disappointed with tho Minis- } ter'S reply. He failed to see why tlio ' Minister would not recognise an association in tho Polico Force in the same way - as the association in tho railway service s was rccoguised. The Minister had not met 5 the men in a spirit df conciliation. The Minister for Railways got on well : with his men, simply because there was a ' Vent lor tile mens grievances—the men 5 could- approach the Minister. He did ■ not wisli to cause-trouble in tiio Force, nor did ho believe that was .the wish 1 of 1 Mr. llosser, but the service could not ® W useful or good unless the men in it ij were given reasonable opportunity of askJ ing tor redress of such grievances as J they had. Let tho Minister "get down : olf his high perch," and meet tho men, instead of telling them, "If you have any j grievances, you can clear." 5 The Tone of Parliament, Mr. W. NOS WORTHY (Ashburton) said . he would like to ask whetner the ipjwint- - uient of Mr. Kosser as organiser of tho , 'association was likely to inspire the Min- - isler, the House, or tho. country with ; .confidence, when it was well known that Mr. Rosser was a Labour agitator? If the police were to have an associationhe was not prepared to say that they should 1 not have some kind of association—it must [ not lie made' from the wrong end. If . thero was to be a 'higher tone in tho ; Polico i'orco, as some members of polico . .said, it was accessary first of all to havo , a high tone in' Parliament, and some of | tlio members had'not shown' a high tone. [ He approved entirely of tho 'attitude.. of tho_Minister. ii: "He did • ' not believe if "Was ' trn'6 : ' illat the . agJtation cams from a majority of ijie , Force, but rather from a noisy minority. . What was tha causc of all tnis dissatisfaction iu the'Polico Force? There was a 1 , great deal of political clchtioncering going on, it seemed 'to him. Members were tinkering'and fiddling to get a few votes. . lie felt very strongly on tin- subject, and he would always support the Minister in his firm attitude. Mr. L. M. isrnr (Chris Wlnn-ch i North) said that if Mr. Itesser was an official of the society this iaot went very fur lo condemn the society, . but lie thought some • medium of collcclivo expression ought to be permitted for a scr- ; vice of 800 moil, if the Miniater simply put his foot on tlra society,,lie might not extinguish it, and even it ho were successful itliore would remain a fciving of : discontent, lie admitted at once that the Government could not tolerate any 1 alliance between tho polico and labour 1 organisations; Mr. It. U. ELL (Cliristclrarch South) 1 saw no objection to the police haying an association so long as tho association was kepi: quite Iree lroni all political or labour organisations. 'l'ho Hen. A. L. HEHDMAN said there was no reason why the polico should net join the Public Service Association. If tliey did >-:o, they could then, by their executive, place their grievances b:-fore tho (Jcnimia-.'ioncr. It they belonged ta this they would lctep out of Hie control of Laboar loaders. And not only was Mr. Kosser connected with the association, but also in "Wellington and Dune din the names of prominent Labour leaders were associated with the movement. It was perfectly clear that tho proposed Polico Association was under the .influence of Labour leaders. In actual fact, no body of men had been treated with greater consideration than tho Police I'orco had been treated since the present Government came into power. Every effort had been made -to ascertain what tho grievances of the men were, and to remedy such grievances as were discovered. A good deal of the trouble that had arisen had had a political origin. Mr. Ell thought tho Minister should give his grounds for this statement. Personally lie was innocent of any-at-tempt to stir up the agitation. Mr. Herdman: I don't want to suggest that the jiouourablo gentleman had anything to do with it, but the honourabio gentleman must recognise that the trouble might havo had its origin in politics quito apart from any member of the llouso at all. I don't impute anything to any member of .the House. He added that lie had been told by an old experienced police officer that conditions in the Force to-day were better than tliey liad ever previously been in the nistory of tho Dominion. No General Disaffection. The Hon. AV. F. MASSEY (Prime, Minister) said he had not had an oppoitunity of hearing the wholo of the discussion, but ho congratulated honourable members on the very reasonable.tone of tho disi'ussion, and on the-abuost complete absence of tile party spirit. So far as the polico were concerned ho could speak with some little authority. Many members of tho Force ha knew well—lk?y had been his friends from boyheod, and he was in their confidence. So far as he had been able to learn, there.was no general discontent in the Force, only a tew dissatisfied individuals. For the Force ho had the most intense admiration, and especially lio i.dmired the courage, tact, and discretion [ of tlio men who were employed in connection with the trouble iu tho milling township of Waihi. lie bolieve'd that if a similar trouble arose again t.he .country could rely upon the loyally of the Force. Ho believed the nowspapors were responsible for tho trouble. One had only to look at tho attitudo of the Opposition nowspapors iu Wellington and Christehi'.rch to be assured of this. The Police Force tho same organisations as were per- ' cipliue must 1)3 kept in conncclion with ; it. it was impossible to allow in the force the same organisations as wore pci- ' mitled in connection with other services 1 in the country. Tho men should have an opportunity of asking for tho redress of their grievances, but that opportunity ex- f isled now. j Air. 11. ATMORE (Nelson) said the i Prime Minister was a very different pel- j son from tlio "vindictive Commissioner of Police." .Mr. Herdman: You know the man is in i the House? ' Mr. Atnioro: Yes, I know Mr. Cullen , is here. 1 wouldn't say it behind his back. Dr. l'oniaro: You wouldn't say it out- ] side. Mr. Atmore: I don't know. I am not ■■ very much afraid of saying things out- * sido, even to tho Hon. Dr. Pcuiare. He i

went on to say that Mr. Massey imglit easily get rli-o u-'ufidoiice of men as to tUeir grievances, when Iho Commissioner or Mr. herdmun. would not. lie used tliu term "vindictive" on. Uio authorny cf a lormer COniiniisionor of Police giving eviuent'O Ix'Rro a commission. ho accused tlio Al.i 11 istor lor Justice of Jack of taot in ollering tlio men the alternative of resigning u tlu-y were not .satisfied. He believed Mr. Massey might, if lio had gone to tlio men, nave got a free and frank statement of grievances. Tlio association was nourishing, and tlio iti'loleivuico of the Minister would not prevent this. Constitutional Methods. Mr. A. HARRIS (Waitcjnata) said that any polico ativuciation permitted must be on. constitutional lines. An dssaeiation controlled by an outside Labour organisation could not possibly be toicratwi. lio ridiculed tlio aasertion of the member lor Kiccarton that tlio members of the New Zealand Polico Force wero treated liko surfs. Through tlio Public Service Association, tlio police could easily secure full ventilation of any grievances. ilr. J. ROBEIt-TSOiN (Utaki) said that Mr, Rotser had only bje.ii niado noniuiaily organiser alter it liafl been mado evident that no member of tiio Force could appear as an ollioial of tlio association. As ttoii as the Minister ro cognised tlio association the necessity i'oi employing Mr. liosscr. Mr. DaviU M'Laren, and others would disappear, The association was going to exist whether t'lio Minister liked it or not. Tin Minister should recognise this fact, and exercise his iuliueuco in practically controlling tlio association. Mr. 1?. M'CALLUM (Wairau) complain ed that the Prime Minister had imported party feeling into a discussion that should have been discussed on non-party lines, He said tliat, on behalf of his party, ho could repudiate what the member for Nelson had said about tlio Commissioner. The Liberal party did not apply the term vindictive to tlio Commissioner. Calling a Halt. Mr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Hay of Plenty) pointed out that it was half an hour past midnight, and suggested .m adjournment. He asked tlio Minister to advise the Houso as to how far he intended' to proceed with the Bill that night. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said that tlio Minister must recognise that this was an ago of unions, and that his attitudo towards tlio Police Association was going to arouse suspicions as to his' fairness iu dealing with that body. He admitted that tlio position of tlio Polico l ? orco was peculiar, but contended that tlio Minister was allowing himself to be dominated by a bog}-. The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN said that ho intended to go as far as Clause 7 before moving to report progress. Mr. MACDONALD said that members ou his side would agree to this. Mr. HERDMAN, replying to Sir. Harris, said that ho could not then make any definite statement regarding retirement at 05. At 0.45 a.m. Clauso 7 having been pasf* ed, tlio .Minister moved to report pro. gress. The llouso rose at 0.47 a.m.