POINT OF ORDER.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1815, 30 July 1913, Page 6

POINT OF ORDER.

QUESTION OF "MOTIVES."

CHAIRMAN'S RULING REVERSED. Air. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) thought that the clause defining tho class of persons to/ ba appointed to the magistracy to solicitors ui-not'iess tnan n\« yeais' standing should be made moro specific, or might be amended .to give the Ministry of th'o day a wide enougn discretion to permit of their appointing clerks of court to tho magistracy. Ilu urged that such men were more capablo ot adjudicating In the' people's courts than young barristers. iio asked whether "five years' standing" meant five years after passing examination, or fivo years in practice. Mr. E. P. LEE (Oauiaraj argued that nono but qualified practitioners should havo the jurisdiction given to magistrates by the Bill. Air. Li. W. FOItBES (Hurunui) urged that the examination test bo retained, but that tlio provision regarding live years' practice lie deleted. This would permit of clerks of court, who were qualified as barristers by examination, being appointed to vacancies on the Bench. All'. .1). BUDDO (Kaiapoi) said it seemed to him that the Government were trying to keep tho prizes of the Bench dor -tho legal profession. But at this he was not surprised, considering the constitution of the Ministry. Air. MALCOLM (Chairman) called Air. Buddo to order, for the reasons that'he was "imputing motives," and also ;h«t he was not speaking to the amendment. Air. BUDDO was evidently surprised, and he ivas apparently going to refer to the ruling when lie was restrained by crics of "Order" from thu Government benches. Ho accepted the ruling without question, but admitted that he was surprised. Air. G. W. KUSSELL (Avon) moved that the Chairman report progress, in order that tho opinion of Atr. Speaker could be taken 011 tho Chairman's ruling. Tho member for lvaiapoi, he said, had been referring to the action of the Alinister in raising a party issue. Tho Chairman stopped him, and said he must not continue' and must not impute motives. Ho read from the Standing Orders to show that the prohibition was only against imputing "improper motives." It was not wrong to impute motives, but it was wrong to impute improper, motives. The Alinister had already said previously that if the amendment was carried ho would drop tho Bill. It was not then wrong to say that ho was making a party question of the Bill. Prime Minister Supports Motion. The Hon. W. F. MASSEY (Prime Alinister) said he regretted the waste of time on the amendment in view of the fact that tho House had a long programmo for the day and for tho session. (This ho suecaeded in saying in 'spite of tlio four points of order, or rather tho samo pO|int of order raised four times by Air. Jsitt and another by Air. Payne.) Air. ACasitiey saiid, however,' thait 110 would support tho motion. But 110 would remind tho House that tho Chairman, rult-d the member for Kaiapoi out of order for two reasons—that 110 was imputing motives, and that he was not speaking to tlio question. Tho member fc-r ICaiapoi had been implying that it was intended to keep the prizes of the Magistrate)' Bench for members of the legal profession. Air. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) mado a brief explanation. "I said it was not a surprise to 1110. seeing how tho Ministry was constituted," he said, "and I was net allowed to explain my position. . . . Thcro is mo question about my being in order in not speaking to tho clause. 1 didn't get. that length." Mr. J. A. HANAN (Inyercargill) asked the Chairman to respect his ruling. Air. Malcolm: As I understood it. the member for Kninpoi was proceeding to suggest -that the Ministry were introducing this clause in order to provide ofiices or -prizes for thedr friends. Mr. Buddo: I never said anything of the kind.' Mr. Alalcolm said he had in mind tho Standing Order forbidding the imputation of impropor motives, and, secondly, he thought Arr. Buddo was not speaking to the question. Ho regretted having le.ft out the word "improper." _ He would not stop a member for imputing mc-tives merely, because motives might lx> of tho very best order. Air. Buddo: What I said was that thero was evidently an interation in tho Bill to keep prizes for tho legal profession, and that I was not surprised eon,tillering how tho Ministry was constituted. At that point I was stopped. Air. Hauan again asked a ruling on this presentment of the facts, Jnit Government members raised objection, and Mr. Speaker was sent for. Differing Versions. When the House resumed, Air. MALCOLM intimated to Mr. Speaker that he had been instructed to report progress, in order to ask for Air. Speaker's ruling on his (the Chairman's) ruling. After recapitulating the question before the Committee, ho said: "In speaking to that, tho member for Kaiapoi, in beginning his speech, said 110 was not surprised at the action of tho Afinisters in regard to this Bill, as it would provide prizes, or as I thought, offices for their lriends. 1 only give the words as they struck me. As soon as I gathered tho inlent of the honourable gentleman's language; I ruled him out of order 011 two grounds—that he was imputing motives, and that ho was' not speaking to the question. 1 .egret that I did not use tho exact words of il'e Slamliug Order (which he read) 1 considered his language was imputing improper motives. . . ." Air. (i. \V. Üb'SSELL (Avon) also rerounled the facts as he recollected them . (his version being tho saino as already given by him in Committee). . ' ' The lion'. \V. F. AIASSEY also gave an < account of tlio incident. The member for Kaiapoi had, he said, been ruled out of order for two reasons—irrelevancy and imputing motives. Tho honourable mombor had said it was ovidently intended by

- tlio Dill to keep prizes for members of - the legal profession, and then the honouris able member had gone on to my he was y not surprised, scans how the Ministry was constituted. "if th :u meant any--0 thing," lie said, "it meant this—that, seeing there aro two members of the legal profession in the Ministry, they had arranged this Bill so that all prizes would . go to their lricnds in the profession." 3 (Cries of "Xo!" from the Opposition, and 1 "Hear, hear" from the Government u bench;?.) i 't'lie lion. A. T. KG ATA (Eastern Maori) 1 said the only point I In l Speaker had to deeide was whether tlie member for luiiapoi sought to impute improper mo lives, t Tlie point about irrelevancy was not ap- [ pealed against. What Mr. Buddo had implied was that the (jiovcrnment, since 3 it contained two legal gentleman, would . naturally have leanings towards their own profession. Was there anything improper 5 about that? ills own opinion was that there was not. And Mr. I'iMklo had ecrj tainly not on to say tint being lawyers they would lean in making appointments to their own friends. No one eotild possibly deduce from his languago that he meant .any such tiling. -Air. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) made nil explanation similar io that mado previously ' by him. He admitted the use of the words "I am not surprised nt the clause, eon- ' sidei'ing how (ho Ministry is constituted." >' He denied having imputed any improper J motive, or any motive of any hind. All " that was in liis mind was that the legal ? members of tho Ministry naturally felt ' kindly disposed t<> members of their own " profession. Mr. Speaker Rules. Mr. SPEAKER, said he found sonic diiTi--3 culty in ruling on a question raised when he was not present, and on words which he did not hear. The Chairman, of Committees had said the words used were "not surprised at the action of Ministers . in providing offices for their friends'." ' Other members had said the wonts wco | "not surprised at Ministers providing • prizes for' members of the legal profc-s- ----, sion." . Mr. Buddo: I accept the Prime MiniSr tcr's statement. The Hon. W. F. MASSEY, asked by Mr. Speaker to repeat the words ussd, said: ! "This is what I believe tho member for Kaiapoi said, that it was evidently in- ' ' teiule<l by the Bill to keep prizes for ' members of the profession, niul then ' ho went on to say he was not surprised at | that, seeing how tho Ministry wa9 con- ' stituted, tho implication being—(Cries of ' "No")—that the two members of the legal profession in the Ministry kept the prizes 1 for their friends. " Mr. Buddo: 1 had no such intention, f Mr. Lang: In this case, as far ns lam able to ji'itlge, the. motives imputed wero not intended to apply directly to Ministers. ... If the words as re]>orted are correct, they do not reflect on any member of the Ministry or the Government. Tils Committee then resumed. The amendment was defeated by 39 votes to 23. An Amendment Accepted. The Hon. J. A. MILLAIt moved to amend the elauso relating to the appointment of magistrates so as to admit the appointment of persons who had been clerks of 'the Magistrate's'Court'lor not leso than ten years. .Mr, HEKDMAN said that he would accept t.hc- amendment if the hou. member added to his amendment a provision that clerks of the Court ol ten years' sarviico who 'were barristers or solicitors should be eligible us magistrates. Tho amendment, however, seemed hardly necessary, for the Act as it stood! did not require that a barrister or solicitor should have been in active practice in order to bo eligible for appointment. Mr. Millar said that he would accept the qualification proposed by the Minister. Iu reply to Mr. l-orbes, the Minister said that tho effect of the amendment would be that a Clerk of Court, who had served in that capacity for ten years,, antl who had been a barrister or- a solicitor for a day, would be eligible for appointment as a magistrate. The amendment was agrtod to. Mr. 11. 1\ LEE suggested that there should ba four chief magistrates, one in each city, and that a chief magistrate, once appointed', should retain, that title so long a 9 he was oil the Jjcnch. The clause providing 'that' two classes of magistrates should receive respectively '.£7OO and .£BOO a year was passed unamended. Magistrates as Coroners. . . Mr. G. \V. 11USSELL asked whether it was intended that, magistrates ihould continue 'to receive fees tor acting as coroners or its private arbitrator.-. In the cities these Ices amounted to a considerable addition to a. magistrate's income. .Mr. IIEKDMAN said 'that at present magistrates received a fee oi 10s. od. lor oucii inquest over which they presided as coroner. The question of dealing with these fees had not. even been considered. He saw no reason why magistrates should not receive the fees. Magistrates, however, had no right to. accept private work without, tlie consent of tne Department of justice. , , , , . Mr. L. M. ISITT contended that it was not in keeping with the dignity of a magistrate that lie should receive fees ui the shape of perquisites. It would bo better to add something to the salaries of magistrates and tu abolish auxiliary payments altogether, Mr. G. AV. iiUSSiiLL contended that it was wrong to employ magistrates as coroners, and that it would be- far better if tlu-y were allowed to apply the whole ol their attention to their magisterial duties. Slit WALTEK BUCHANAN said that, so tar as the cities wero concerned, Mr. ltussell's contention had a certain amouiit of force. 11l tho country districts, however; it was very desirable that tho magistrates should act as coroners. Failing, the magistrate it' would often be difficult, in the .country, to get a qualified person to conduct an inquest. Mr. J. S. DICKSON said that he thought that a person other than a magistrate should act as coroner. Mv. J. HAN AN urged that it was a bad principle to pay any public servants allowances ill audition to salary. Tiiey should receive a salary remunerating them for all tho work that tliey did. Mr. G. Yi'. I'OIIBES took tlie same view of the matter. Mr. HEKDMAN said that he absolutely agreed with much that lion, gentlemen imd said about the undesirability of magistrates receiving extraneous payments, apart from salary, lie asked the House to allow him to take the question into consideration. If necessary he could stop tlra payment of coroners' fees. Ho did think it desirable that magistrates should receive a salary covering everything

111111!!: Compensation Claims. Mr. HERDJIAN moved to strike out a sub-clause briuging the hearing of claims for compensation under the 'Workers' Compensation Act under the jurisdiction of a magistrate. 'It was proposed, lio (aid, to make regulations which would" provide that compensation claims should bo heard in the Supremo Court, parties being put upon the tame looting as lo fees, etc., as at present, when compensation cases were Heard ill the Arbitration Court. Air. J. G. COATUS objected to tho amendment, contending that the clause as it stood would admirably servo tho convenience of working men. Jfr. V." 11. IiEED agreed w f ith the previous speaker, and said that it was desirable that compensation claims should be heard ill the .Magistrate's Court—at all events, 111 the outlying country districts. Mr. ,T. COLVIN also urged that magistrates should have at least limited powers in dealing with compensation claims. Mr. A. 11. IIINIXSIAKSH contended that magistrates might safely bo trusted to deal with compensation claims. Ono factor making this desirable was thai many insurance companies delayed .settlement as long as possible, but paid up as soon as nn action was taken into Court, . To limit the amount of compensation in respect of which a magistrate should exer c-ise jurisdiction would lie impracticable. Tho delay that now occurred in dealing with compensation claims would not be greatly reduced if the cafes were transferred to the Supreme ftiui't. Tho only way to secure prompt payment: of com- j pensation was to empower magistrates lo deal with claims. 'Hie discussion was conlinued at great length by Mr. Ilimlmarsh and n'.iior meiii- ' The Hon. A. L. UKIMttIAN eventually \ said that in view of the altitude I alien l.y a number of honourable members, he , would ask leave to withdraw his motion. r The paragraph empowering magistrates to i deal with rwnpenwition claim* would then f remain in the Hill. Meantime he wnul.l , review 1110 position, anil before the Hill ] passed through tho Upper Hmivi deter- , mins.what lo do in tho matter. t Mr. V, H. HEED moved a, now sub-

clanso giving magistrates power to grant probates or letters of administration whore (lip valuo of ail estate does not exceed .moo. 'Hie addition was agreed to. C. K, WILSOJf contended Hint ina^jstnntfs.should have power to deal with claims ele. (relating to property) wlrto Ui«» value involved was as much* as JESOO instead of >t C2I)O as proposed in tlio Hill. The .Minister did not accept tho suggestion, and Mr. Wilson did not press it The last clause of the Bill was agreed to at 10.30 p.m.