REJECTED.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1575, 19 October 1912, Page 4

REJECTED.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL BILL. DEBATE IN UPPER HOUSE. THROWN OUT BY 21 VOTES TO 18, The Legislative Council met at 2.35 p.m. yesterday, and continued its consideration of tlio Legislative Council Bill. Before rising, a motion Unit tho Bill should Ixa rend a .second timo was defeated. 'l'lio Bill contains only two clauses, and tlio second ono reads as follows:—"Every person who, after lite passing of this Act, is duly appointed a meml>er of the Legislative Council of New Zealand, shall hold his seat therein for three years, to be reckoned from tlio dato of tlio instrument of Ins appointment, and no longer." Tlio Hon. J. ANSTEY resumed the dclwto. Ho stated that ho would vote against tho Bill. Tbo proposal in tho measure was much worse than tho existing law. Tlio question at issuo was whether tho council approved a sevoa years' or a three years' term of office for Legislative Councillors. An objection to passing tlio Hill was that it was against the traditions of the Council to pass such violent legislation as tins in a hasty and ill-considered manner. There was no need whatever for haste, and if this movement were detained a little, no harm would be done, and ( tho voice of the people might bo obtained. "Stop Gaps." The Hon. S. T. GEORGE doubted very much if tho Government would get anyone to accept office for three years simply for a certain purpose. , A voico: Stop gaps! Mr. George: "Yes, stop gaps!" Ho objected to' tlio three years' term, and would record his voto against the Bill. Tho Hon. J. RIGG said that there was moro tluiu the mere question of tenure at issue, lie was inclined to voto for tho Bill. Tho statement'had been that a three years' term of office might interfere detrimentally with the independence of tlio Councillors. However, his opinion was that servility depended on the man himself; if a man was inclined to be servile, ho might be servile during a thre« years' term as well as during a seven years' term. A Councillor: Circumstances make men! . Continuing, Mr. ltigg said that it could not be denied that on somo occasions members of the Council had not acted in the spirit of -independence which should have governed them, Tho Hon. C. 11. MILLS announced that ho had made up liis mind to vote against the Bill. Next year, when the members of the Lower House were on the platform, members of the Council would learn through the press wlmt the wish of the people was. If it was found that tho people wished to change from a nominative to an eloctivo Council, then tho Council would, even against its own wish, have to accept the will of the democracy. Tho Hon. J. E. JENKINSON said: "Just ono word on the Bill. I will voto against it. Let us get it out of tho way as soon as possible, and get on with somo really useful legislation.' , "I Pick It Up, and Turn It Down." Tho Hon. J. BARR styled tho Bill as simplicity itself. "No one can misunderstand it," he added; "I pick it up, and turn it down." He was against the three years' tenure, even for the House; it was a most expensive term. Members: Hear, hear! Tho Hon. W. Eeehnn: It should bo five years. Tho Hon! C. M. LUKE said that whilo ho favoured a change to an elective Chamber ho looked upon tlio present short Bill as opposed to the original measure, and he could not stultify himself by voting for it. .... The non. G. JONES deplored this "childish haste." Ho did not eeo why tho Council should bo treated as a child —have its noso, held and. the . mpdicino forced down'its 'throat. 1 Ho'opposed tho Bill.

"What's the Matter With Father?" The Hon. T. KELLY commencod his specch with tho remark that ho thought that everyone had made up his mind how to vote. ' . . The Hon. W. Italian (interjecting): What's the matter with father? He 3 all right! The Hon. Mr. Kelly concluded his brief specch by stating that "ho would vote for the second reading of the Bill. The Hon. W. 11. TUCICIiR regarded this short Bill as a stepping-stone to ail elective Council, and as ho was opposed to an elective Chamber, ho would vote against tho Bill. Had tho proposition been merely a change from a seven yours' to a three years' term ho would have voted for tho measure. Tho Hon. W. W. M'CARDLE stud that if ho was alive when the time arrived for declaring for or against the oloctivo principle lie would do all ho could to brine about the elective system. But he did not think tlmt tho present short Bill would bo the expedient which tho Government thought it would be. Tho Hon. W. BEEHAN did not think that tho Government wero serious; lie thought that tho Government wero trying to find out tho opinion of the country. Ho favoured deferring n definite step. The Hon. B. HARRIS opposed tho Bill, which ho said "was very thin." Hon. H. D. Bell's Reply. Tho Hon. 11. D. BELL said that lie I thought that ho had previously wade it clear that tho Council would shortly Iw reduced to 22. If appointments must bo mad© before tho expiry of tho present Parliament, for what term should they bo made ? Members: Seven years! Ml'. Bell said that tho Councillors seemed to ignore tho fact that such terms would rim into subsequent Parliaments. If there was to be election—and the Council had affirmed tho principlo of election, though not election by direct vote of tho people—then the nominative system was to disappear, Thoso who had voted agaiusfc tlio original Bill wero consistent in opposing this Bill, but it could not bo denied that'this Bill was tho natural sequence of the main measure, If the Council wanted seven veers and nothing else, then it would bo right to reject the Bill now. If the Council wished for 6omo modification of tho ,Bill, tho Council should go into Committeo on tho matter. He asked the Council to consider tho Bill ill Committee. A Councillor: Then, wo shall lie told that we accept the principle of the Bill, The Division. On tho motion that 'die Bill should be read a second time, the Council divided, and (ho motion was defeated by 21 votea to 13. Tho division list is as follows:--Ayes 13. Noes 11. 801 l Louisson Callan Harris M'Loan Thompson Baillie Luke Wigrum Loughnan Kigg Anstoy Paul George Johnston Paratu Miller Smith Stevens Collins Ormond Barr M'Cardie Jenkinsoa Kelly .Tones Bcohnn Gilmer Carncross Tucker Baldio Dunca,a Samuel Mills LOCAL BILLS. TO FACILITATE BUSINESS. On. tho motion of tho Leader of ths Council (tlio Hon. H. D. .■? lowing resolution was made: "lliat tho Standing Orders bo so far suspended as to allow local Bills to pass through their r«maining stages in one day after being reported from Committee." A Councillor: That is for all tho rest of the session? Hon. Mr. Bell: Yes. BILLS PASSED. Tho following Bills were passed through! all their stotfos -Wellington City Empowering Amendment Bill, New Plymouth lluatoki Stream Diversion and Exchango Bill, Oaniaru King George's Park Reserve Vesting Bill, Tauraitga Harbour Bill, Whakalano Harbour Bill, and Wellington and Karori Sanitation and Water Supply Bill.