HUTT ROAD BILL.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1559, 1 October 1912, Page 6

HUTT ROAD BILL.

ASSESSING, THE COST.

fRAFFIC TALLIES TO BE TAKEN

MANY-SIDED PROBLEM

Yesterday morning,. Mr. W. ,S. Shortt opened ' the. inquiry,' which was ordered for, the . purpose of deciding the proportionate .liability of the tun Wellington local bodies, for the cost of the Hutt Road improvement. Mr. Sliortt, who is Assist-niit'Under-Secretary for Public Works, has beon appointed a State Commissioner :for this purpose. To put the proceedings briefly; the Commissioner announced that ho is'goiii? ttf have tallies taken, and that on the result of thoso tallies he will bnso the proportions of liability. -The representatives may then come,before him ami object to their proportion on any rolevniu ground.'--Tho inquiry was adjourned for the tallies to be' taken, and it i? qtiu'O likely that it will bo resumed within a month from now. .. . ' .. > The'local todies concerncd wero rcpreffllted as follow:-WelIington Oiiy Council, Mr.-.T.O'Shea (City Solicitor); Onslow Borough Council, Mr. T. M. IV uford; Lower Hutt Borowi-hi Council, A Blair;-Petone Borough Council, -\ir. "'l' F. Martin hrid'K.'C! Kirk; Eastbourne? Borough Council, Mr.' P. G, Bolton; Miraniar Borough Council, Messrs. M. Myers aiid V. I?. Meredith; Hutt Countv Council, Mr. :A. da /•]}.-. -Brandon; . Makara County Council, Mr. M. P. Luckie; Johnsonville'Town'- .Board .Mr. Jerusalem; Upper Hutt Town Board, Mr. D. M.Pind•lay; 'the: Kailway Department, Mr. H. H. Osfclcn.*- • • • " The Commissioner Explains. Mr.'.Shortt 'opened'thn)proceedings U making some explanatory remarks. He said that,his appointment was dated July--8 -191'i-and that it had been made, by ilr. A. M. Myers when that gentleman was a Minister of tho Crowm ' Tile, appointment had : bcen made under a statue, which saiit that the Minister should appoint some iit person to inquire; into tho ot the cost of constructing the Hutt Road. The proportionate iijio'unts. thus arrived at, he added, had to, be borne by tho .several-local bodies. • ... Mr. Shortt then said that lie had asked the'representatives to'ifrset him that doy in order that theymight understand definitely'what the issues were, as lie understood'that .there was some doubt on the part of 'the local 1 bodies as to what tho scope'of the-commission was.; Tho scope was,..he continued, the ascertaining of the ■ proportion of the. total."cost of the road which every- local body made liable by statutewould have to bear.. In the.Hutt Road' Act, 1911, it was provided that ' the cost, should be borne by.the local bodies in such proportions as were declaredly the Minister, ,who was elsewhere in the statutes required to appoint some person to ascertain -those .proportions, -. which would, duly: bo .gazetted. On the ninth of • this month the Railway Department hod stated the-cost of the road to be ,£97,93.1, in addition to which there were outstand- ' ing accounts -which amounted to MBS. The-Railway Department also, he understood, cla : .mcd intetest in respect.of the • monsy. expeuded from time, to time. " ro far as he* understood it, the business of tiie commissioner, was to find out the proportion of cost' to be borne ljy' tho lflcal - bodies, and it was not part of the,business to'find out what'the cost was. That brought-liinr to the'question of what evidence was to bo tendered; In this particular ca'so the Kailway Denartmont, so : :far as he could see. had ho liability cast upon' it. to . show- how., the. cost should -be Wrie.;'-if:-'^«V-M«»ttM t ifOT-.the commis-and-therefoVfei he hailealled them together to discuss what evidence should he ■ brought toward. In a matter of this nature, one was actuated to a great ext"nt "by what use the people of the various districts madß;of the Toad, end to ascertain : that a proner tally would be made. So far as he,could s°e he had no'function-to say the cost.was. If:.the parties-object-ed to the cost, it -was open to them in various, wavs to test, the. matter Iwfore a ; suitable tribunal. Whatever the cost, the proportions, decided on by him. would oru the payments of the various bo<lies. iSo. far as he could see, the lyst way to deal with the m"tt?r would be to. have a tally of the traffic taken, arrive at. the nroportiin tn I-" written arain=t, *;eacll Kod'y. and tck» that as a tisis. .• far instance, that it was found tint W»l----linaton'wns. 40, Onslow 10. and Petone 30, that wo'.ild imply that, prima' f:.cie, those th" proportions that those three : Jwj'ioe l --slio'ild heT of ,the ' cost of constructing the road.- And then when the repre'se'iitativps came before him aeojn they could, if tlvev> .wjs'ied, tlint that was a, fair proportion of what they, should pay.'

Railway Department's Position. The Commissioner then suggested that' , , it might be well if Mr. Ostler outlined the 1 . position of the Railway Department; • MP.'Ostler said .that the position which the Railway Department took up was. the j ■one stated"by the Commissioner. Tho , , Department submitted, that the only j : jurisdiction which the Commission had ■ was to find the proportions, and that it j was not competent fpr the Commission to , deal with the matter of cost. He under- , stood that the particulars of the cost had £ been supplied to the local, authorities. f There were other items which had not j been charged, and which the Department . ■ held iteelf at liberty to include in tho total • cost. When the proportions were arriv- | cd at the onus would rest on the Piailway Department of showing what the cost was., , ■ AVhether or not the road had cbst moro J than it ought to have cost was irrelevant. J Mr. J. O'Shea (City): I think that as ( Tar as' the law goes, the counsel repre- , renting local bodies will agree with your j statement of the position. I would, ask j if, having ltiade the statement, you.'wiil , .adjourn. the hearing, .in; order , to let counsel consider your proposals, and also to give yon time to take' the \ tally, I understand you will have it "done by the Government. . The Commissioner: This is a matter I. wish to discuss with'yen- I have the authority of tha liailway Department to I have a tally taken, and as the C'ommis-' I sioner I have the right to demand one. ] Mr. O'Shea: At what points do you i — the tally should bo taken? ' i The Commissioner: At three points, t One just outside the town on the boundory between hero and Onslow, on® Ngahauranga, and one at Petone. ; If ,we\ < have too'many tally clerks, I think tho i people will be annoyed. «) . I Mr. O'Shea: I think the Kaiwarra i Bridge would be tho best point at which 1 to take the first tally. ■ 1 The Commissioner: That Is a matter for discussion betiveen parties. I am i ' willing 'to meet you on all • reasonable i M. Wilford (Onslow): I don't eirreo for a moment with your tally suggestion, Sir. : I think, that it would bo oiiite insufficient. In tho first place it is necessnrv to tally at the Kaiwarra Bridge; then at the Xgahauranga Bridge; then at the Grand National Crossing at ~ Petone; then at AVlutc's Line-— The Commissioner: AVliy .at Whites ' Mr Wilford: That, is tho boundary between Hutt and Petone on the Hutt Road. It is then necessary to tally at lark Avenue, which is tho northern boundary of Petone; and then to tolly at the southorii Vmiulfuy of the Upper Hutt town district. • .. n - In reply to a remark by the Ummis/Mr. Wilford said: r lhe lenpth o! Toad in tho Onslow district is 101 chain.?. We will have to put a man on tho end or • that if th<s Commissioner doesn t. . . . ' It is not fair . that Petone should be credited with all the vehicles which cross the foad there unless they go on to tho The S Commissioner: If the tally clerk is any good at all'he will endeavour to find out where these people are irom or where thev are going. . , Mr Wilford: I answer you, sir, by asking: What of tho trnific which comes from the Wairarapa? „„ f - ir i n Tho Commissioner said that ontsitlo traffic would have .to be counted m, because it was of some benefit to somebody. In some cases it might have to be divided pro rata. Mr. Wilford Wants Information. ■Mr. Wilford thought that counsel should be supplied with the following information *.—(1) The area of the districts, of the local bodies concerned: (2) the capita valuo; (:)) the annual revenue trom all sources. „ ~ ~ . ~ Mr. O'Shea: Particularised. . Mr. Wilford: No, lumped; Mr'O'Shsa; Well, I owMt to that, bev

cause wo have tramways and electric light. -r,, '.Air. Wilford: Wo can omit them. Ho want information alio as to (4) Tho length of the Hutt Koad within tho boroughsthai; is to sav, How much of the road is within the boroughs concerned? (5) tho population o£ each local authority; (G) tho number of ratepayers; (7) land taken from any local authority for-construction of tho Hutt Hoad or railway; (8) area of tho old Hutt Road separately for eaoh borough through -which the load ran; and (0) present; indebtoilnrcs of the boroughs mul tho (uttounfc of loans and tho amount of interest payable thereunder. 'J'lio Commissioner: I doi.i see any objection to tltis information boing obtained. Most of it can ho got out of tho Blue-book. ■ . . „ ~ , Mr. Wilford:- Is'o, sir; you won t hnil it all there. _ • Th© Commissioner: all, out IUOSt °Vlr. R-. C. Kirk (Petone) thought that tallies should he taken at tho junction of the street leading from ICaiwarra through Ngaio and Khaiidallah. The second point would bo at the divergence of traffic up (lit* Ngahuuranga Mr. Is.irk suggested other points: out as far as the Hutt town district. ' . . ~ The Commissioner: But don t you seo that we'.are likely-to get m such tallies a. great deal more- than goes along tho Hutt Boad? ... Mr. Kirk: Then, af there was an intelligent tallv clerk tteit would bo dropped. The Commissioner: Then if there was an intelligent tally clerk, could be ascertained without covering all these points? ■ . Mr. Kirk: In: one case you would be dependent on what was told the clerk, and in the other on tho actual facts.-. We have taken tallies of this kind before, and have always-eliminated local traffic. The construction of this road altects the local bodies in different ways. The class of work done m somo districts is different from that done in others. In somo places land has been reclaimed and.in others nothing of the sort has been, done.' where there are special features those feaures should be 'stated/showing in which local district that work has been done. I don't think it affects our district very, much.' The Commissioner: That', would form part of their ease before me—if they can : show that, they have any equitable claim in reduction of any amount they might otherwise have to. pay. I think that it is a part of their case to try to show that they are entitled to a reduction of tho amount allotted them on a traffic basis on account of special benefit to someone else. The Commissioner .-remarked that the road-.ran only through Makara County, Onslow Borough, and, to a slight extent, through Petone'. ~ Mr. Wilfurd: Part of the road is in the city,-also. . ■ The- Commissioner: A small portion ° f Mr. Wilford .-.Well, it is five feet deep, so R is pretty costly. : . The Commissioner: I am willing to pass on Mr. Kirk's suggestion to the. Railway Department, .aiid request them to supply .it.. , Duration of the Tally.

Mr. A. Blair 1 (Lower Hutt) said that tallies should be taken at three points —Ifaiwarro, Ngahauraaga, . and near Petone mill. There .would be a number of unobliging' people who would not want to supply the information needed, and. some motor-cars-cars, were always in a hurry—would not stop- The tally clerk should •• be instructed to ascertain ' a vehicle's place'of origin and its destination. There was a very great danger in taking-tallies al points further than those which he had'named, because local trnfhc might then complicate matters.; Ao mention had been mnde of the time over which the. tally should extend. It would be well to fix it. ' The Commissioner suggested two weeks. Mr. Blairr I say. that- a , fortnight will not -'give-'any adequate, idea. It might be* a good or a bad fortnight. It wnjjnt be very wet or particularly fine, m which latter case there might be a great deal of motor-car pleasure traffic. . A voice: There.might be a race meeting on! '' -' . , . ' Mr. Blair: Yes, or a sports meeting! ' The Coiunjissionfr:. I don t think that it. would be fair to ,tal;e it when u race meeting or a sports meeting was on. Mr. Blair: I suggest three months, and not less' than six weeks. If a tally istaken at all it should bo an efiectual tally, and oven then it will only be an element. Tho Commissioner: If it were shown that when the tally was taken the weather conditions were such that the tally was unreliable, a further tally could be token. As' to three months, I can't agree to that. I could agree to a reasonable thing, but not to. that. • , Mr. Blair: In regard to Mr. Wilford's Clau=e 7, in which he asks for information re land taken from any local authority for construction of the Hutt Road or Railway, there might also be cases where 'land lias boen given to local authorities. . The Commissioner: When? - Mr. Blair.: While the widening has been going on. I suggest'that that should be added to Clause 7—land taken from or given to any local authority. ... Mr. F. (t. Bolton (En3tbonrne)-.approved of the tallies proposal, and desired a special tally at the entrance to Jho Borough of Eastbourne. Ho thought that two weeks would be sufficient for the ta"y. • -1-, The Commissioner: What I propose to do is this: adjourn to-day until the tally is made, and have a summary supplied to all of the local bodies, and I intend to sny in supplying the same what I consider should be the proportions. We will treat/the result-of the tally tentatively as the claim. •" ~,. » After Mr. V. H. Meredith ■'(Miramar) had spoken, . T , Mr. J. O'Shea (interjecting):' I think rou are committing yourself too .much, sir.' If a tally is'the only basis Miramar and Eastbourne misht get out ot it altogether. Mr. Meredith is cross-examining vou to get YOU to, commit yoursolt. . . . t wish to sugeest .that everything in the nature of trading business should be eliminated— trains, electric light, power supply, abattoirs; ' ' Mr. Wilford: No one will consent to that as far as abattoirs are concerned.

: Wanting to Prove too Much. •Mr. M. F. Luckie supported Mr. Wil:ford's view about the tallies, and said that two weeks would be a sufficient time. It wis a matter of importance to decide whether the headquarters of a business should bo the place to which traffic was debited. He thought that that question should be answered in the_ affirmative. They should not be dependent upon what drivers of vehicles told them. The extra expenses of additional tally clerks be i"'small that it should not be con■?id»rcd. ' There would be a great number of unnecessary .issues, and the Commission would have a amount of useless information before it if the .whole of Air. Wilford's points were; taken into consideration. The result did not depend upon area, rateable value, or Qopnlation, it depended upon the actual lise of the '°The Commissioner: I am afraid that your headquarters suggestion will bo wnitin" to prove too much. I suppose that these local bodies draw rates Wellington'businesses sot up in (■riots You would probably find that Welfington is the headquarters of it all. without Wellington these outside local bldiescould not exist, However, that will bo a matter you can plead in equity la Mr Jerusalem (Johnsonville). thought n* * tallv would givo faTr idea of °the amount of traffic which passed over tho roads. In reply to Mr. Jerusalem, .Commissioner said: The proper way will be t.o S? tho Bailwar Department take tallies nt the* S, and let the local bodies hko their own tallies at any point they , ith I will undertake that the local bodies will have due notico of the dato t 111 tallies so that they ran do this. I will say this "also—that the tally should ho taken bv some intelligent person who can stand cross-examination and explain the nature of the tally, and one also who is acquainted with the roads of the ''Mr!'Wilford: How many hours of the div do you propose this tally to go on? The Commissioner: Clearly, as far as the Hutt Road is concerned it should be taken for a very long time—probably from six in the morning till nine at n 'jlr.' Kirk: Oh, very much 'easier than th»t 1 Mr. Wilford: Oh, vou would not catch a Chinaman at that time. You will-have to start very much earlier than that. tlenlving to an observation by Mr. D. At Fiiidlav (Tipper Hutt), the Commissioner said that, after the tally was taken tho local bodies' representative's would appear before him—if tbey liked to put it ..this way—"to shoir. cause ivlu tksj sh.ou4J

not pay according to the result of tho tally." Mr. Meredith (Miramar): I would like to ask that a tally be taken at Mirainar boundary. Tho Commissioner: Well, thero are a number of roads lending into Miraniar. Mr. Meredith: There is practically only ono way to get to Miratnar —along the main tramline.-.

111'. Blair again advocated a much longer test than two weeks. He said that the traffic from seme of tho smaller bodies could practically all avoid tho roads for that short period. Also, the Commissioner would notice how Miraniar and Eastbourne jumped at the idea of a tally! Assessment of ihe Costs. The Commissioner here remarked: I should estimate tho cost given as right imtes some of the parties get an injunction of the Supreme Court to make me deal with the cost. I don't intend to deal with costs except under mandamus of the Supremo Court. Mr. Kirk: I am strongly of opinion that the only tallies taken should be official tallies. Mr. Wilford: We won't agree to that, sir. . ' Mr. Kirk said that spccial tallies would instil much more confidence, and if private tallies were taken the official tallies would act as a check. On previous occasions the private tallies had all varied. Mr. Wilford said that the (ally sliould be taken for twenty-l'our hours per day. The Commissioner: You surely don't suggest twenty-four hours' tallies on all those outside places. " -Mr. Wilford: No; I say that our body says that wo should have it. Respecting this headquarters' theory, how would it affect a case like this? A man living at Lowry Bay rings up for a taxi to catch a train at Johnsonville. • The taxi goes out through the various districts, and, picking up the man at Lowry Bay, sees out upon the return journey. At Lower Hutt the car stops, and the driver buys a tin of petrol, which I suppose benefits somebody there. They go on to Petone, and thero tho man has breakfast. Then they go on, and they catch the train at .Tohnsonville, after which the car returns to Wellington. Who will you credit that car's traffic to?

Replying to Mr. Jerusalem, the Commissioner said: "I have no power to direct or refuso to receive a private tally.. If one is put before me, so long-as it is relative evidence I have a right to deal with'it. I must eiercise my own ideas as to whether the result of that tally is sufficient.

"I think that is as far as we can go this morning," concluded the -Commissioner. "I-will take steps to have these, tallies taken. . I will endeavour to have tallies taken at reasonable places, and at reasonable times. lam notablo to sav tliis morning when the adjourned inquiry will take place, so that it will have to be adjourned sine die. A digest of tho tally will be supplied to the various parties', and then you will have to come w-ith your evidence. I will, let the local bodies know particulars >of the tally which is to be taken. The inquiry stands adjourned sine die."