THE ESTIMATES.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1557, 28 September 1912, Page 6

THE ESTIMATES.

EDUCATION VOTE. REPORT OF THE COMMISSION. At 7.30 p.m. the House resumed in Committee of Supply, and at once proceeded to consider tno Estimates of the Department of Education. Mr. G. \V. FORBES (Hurunui) asked what the Government intended to do about the report of the Education Commission. He advocated tho use of uniform school books to be selected by the Department of Education. Mr. .A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Centril) urged the Minister to provide free stationery in primary schools. The Hon. Jas. ALLEN said that it. waa not possible for 'him to give any declaration of policy in regard to the Education Commission's report at that- stage. Ho had just had time to read the report, but during the recess he intended to go into it,, very carefully. On Tuesday ho ■would move to refer the report to tho Education Committee, and no doubt the committee would report this year. Ho did not think that it would be wise lo adopt generally uniform school books. It might bo possible to introduce a certain amount of uniformity, but it would notbo possible to adopt, general uniformity without damaging the education system. At present the Department issued a list of books and the boards were allowed to make a selection. He did not see his w.iy to grant free stationery, in primary school's unless some portion of the money provided for free school books could be used for this purpose. "A Thorough Overhauling." Mr. G. W. KUSSELL (Avon) said thai expenditure in tho central. office of tho Department of Education again showed .in increase. He was of opinion that tho cen tral department needed a thorough overhauling. The Minister should himself go into the matter in order to determine Yjhether a hugo staff of nca,Tly 50 offioers was needed to direct the educaliou system. Decentralisation of certain activities might make it possible ,to materially reduce the- central office staff. . A committee of experts should bo set up to select uniform school books.

"Sir." J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) urged that education should be administered from a oommorcial standpoint. The first thin? was to assist town and country industries. Tho Hon. Jas. ALLEN said that ho did not believe in centralising any more lhan was absolutely necessary. The school committees rlirt very valuable work, -mil it should not be lost. He mould go very carefully into the expenditure in the head office, but it had to be remembered that the Department now controlled a, great many institutions of eomparativelv ■ recent origin. Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otnki) Mid that ,luj bfltvod «djiM>ian would norer become

more commercial than it was at tile present time. The improvement most needed -in primary schools was that some economic knowledgo should be given to tho children. The Neglected Backblocks. Mr. T. IV. RHODES (Thames) said that ho had a very high appreciation of tho benefits conferred under the education system, but. in ono direction there was room for complaint. ■ Very meagro provision was mado for education in tho backblocks. In tho Hauraki Plains district there wero no regular school buildings. Two schools were conducted in temporary quarters (one of them in an old shed), and they had one teacher between fhetn. If ombellisliments on buildings in the cities were dispensed with, it would go a long way towards providing tho unpretentious school buildings that were so badly needed in tho backblocks. Mr. G. M. THOMSON (Dunedin North) said that the great merit of tho New Zealand system of education was that it was as little centralised as possible. j. hanks to the system of boards and committees, tho whole community was intensely interested in the subject of education. Under the primary school syllabus a great deal of time was devoted to non-essentials which would be much better left out. It was a matter for regret that memorising work had been abandoned. Children were not so well grounded nowadays as they used to bo in "the three _R's." One reason for this was that home-work had been discontinued. Children would be much better employed in doing lesson 9 at home than in attendP, Ic t urG shows. Economics could not well be taught in primary schools since a majority of tho children left on passing the Fourth Standard. The same thing applied to industrial training. Agricultural teaching in country schools was of no great value. Training of this character could only be absorbed with advantage when children had reached an age at which they were capable of close study Jho great need in .the backblocks was for better teachers. Infant Mortality, _Mr A. H. HINDMARSH (Wellington boutn) quoted statistics of infant mortality in Is ew Zealand, and averred that this country -was a veritable Herod. Mr. . Hine .pointed out that there was a vote on the Ilstimates for infant life protection. The hon. member should reserve his remarks until this vote bad been reached.

Mr. Hindmarsh (warmly): You have no imagination! (Laughter.) The Hon. R. H. RHODES said thai the matter mentioned by Mr. Hindmarsh was of great importance, but it came under the Department of Public Health. This Department was doing what it could do in educating mother*. Dl. Trub> King had been employed to conduct a lecturing tour with the same end in view.

Mr. Hindmarsh said that he preferred John Milton as an authority -to the Minister for Public Health. Milton had said that education should fit a man foi all the duties of life.

Tho Chairman at this stage intimated that Mr. Hindmarsh Was. straying beyond the limits of the discussion.

Mr Hindmarsh said that he was advocating the teaching of 6ome elementary rules of physiology to children. Large numbers of children died every year in New Zealand through ignorance. In education nothing so invigorated the understanding as tracing cause and effect, and the teaching of physiology would bo excellent mental . training. Mr. Hindmarsh. stigmatised as "superficial and inane" the remarks of tho PostmasterGeneral. " Removing an Impression. Thh Hon. JAS. ALLEN said that he wanted to remove an impression that the last speaker had no doubt left on the minds of members. The Government had ,not been guilty of neglecting this matter. Four officers had been appointed for purposes of medical inspection in primary schools. Mr. Hindmarsh: There are 150,000 children attending the schools. You are as bad as the Postmaster-General! Mr. Allen said that since coming into office ho had taken step 3 to do exactly what the hon. gentleman had advocated for primary schools. The proportion of deaths of infants had fallen from 88 per thousand in 1907 to 61.6, per thousand in 1909. Tho Government would not relax ■ its efforts to reduce tho mortality still further. Back-block schools, the Minister assured members, 1 would not be neglected. Mr. Hindmarsh asked whether ho had correctly understood the Minister to say that "the large cohort" of inspectors were to instruct schoolgirls. Tho Minister: They will instruct teach,ers. • Mr. Hindmarsh: How many teachers are there in New Zealand 2 . . The Minister: About 4500. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) commended the scheme of sending Dr. Truby King round the country on a crusade to instruct people in the nurture of infants. His work in Dunedin had appreciably lowered the death-rate among infants, and it would be an excellent thing if his beneficial work could be diffused all over the country. He hoped that splendid results would follow the appointment of medical inspectors for school children, especially in the stamping out of tuborcular disease. Mr. HINDMARSH said the member for Avon talked about everything under, the sun except tho question, before the House. He had on this occasion sought to advertise the work of his own Government. He advocated the teaching of. girls and women in the'duties of motherhood, especially in the feeding of infants.

The Hon. JAS. ALLEN said that the .teaching of physiology was compulsory in public schools from standards three to six. Education at Rarotonga. Dr. TE RANGIHIROA (Northern Midori) asked the Minister to consider the neoessity ot. providing the Natives of the Cook Islands with a system of education. In the past the islanders had been educated to some extent by tho missionaries of the London Missionary Society. This body could no longer carry the burden a.nd would bo glad to be relieved of it. Had the Mackenzie Government remained in power it would lnvo done something for the education of the Cook Islanders. One Native school-teacher had been sent to the island of Niue. He hoped that education would he given to the natives of tho Cook Islands in ::ho same efficient manner as it had been given to tho Natives of New Zealand. He sympathised with the remarks of the member for Wellington South on the subject of infant mortality. _ The matter should receivo attention in tho schools, and physiology should be taught by competent instructors. Tho Hon. K. H. RHODES took strong exception to some of the remarks which had fallen from Mr. Hindmarsh. He had dealt with the subject seriously, and Mr. HindinaTsh had commented in a strain which did not entitle him to respect. Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Hutt) advoenfed the introduction of uniform school books. He did not bolieve in school committees electing members of education boards; they should Jip, elected on the same democratic franchise as members of Parliament. He appreciated fully the good work done .by education boards—good work that was least of all appreciated bv the Department. He regretted that of the 15,000 children and young peoplo in our technical schools a miuimum number were directing their attention to agricnl ture. Mr.'.T. A. HANAN (Invercargill) said he regretted that the grant of. freo school books in New Zealand was not as much appreciated os he had hoped it would have been. He resetted also that the Education Commission had not recom mended a Dominion scheme for tho appointment of teachers. Teachers' Salaries. Mr. J. BOLLARD (Eden) complained that the salaries of school teachers were too low to attract into the profession men who wero tho best available for tho very important work to bo done by them. The Hon. JAMES ALLEN said that a great deal had been done already to make the teaching profession attractivo to young men, nnd he hoped more would be done in future. But in the meantime, until the Dominion grew a little, ho would ask members (o remomber that everything could not l>e done at once.

Mr. C. K. Wilson, Mr. W. D. S. Macdonald. Mr. Cr. Hunter, Mr. D. Buick, and Mr. W. C. Buchanan all urged.the need for hotter grants for the carriage of children to back-blocks schools.

The TTon. .1. Allen said the Department proposed to pay sixpcnco per day per head for tho conveyance of children over seven years of age for a. distance of three miles. Tf the nchial enst, I,p Ihr board wero more thaJi Gd. oer head, the Depart'

ment would pay a ponnd for pound subsidy on the .moneys actually expended over and abovo tho subsidy, lie was afraid tho Department could not pay subsidies to children riding on ponies or bicycles. 110 recognised that in tho back-blocks there wero deserving cases, but a concession of this kind would lead to many abuses.

Mr. J. BOLLARD (Eden) "moved to reduce -the item, "Teachers' Salaries, .£650,000," by .£"> as an indication tint teachers wero not properly paid. Tho Hon. J. ALLEN explained that in tho last eleven years, the cost of primary education had increased by ,£360,000. Of that amount .£2-14,000 represented the increase in teachers' salaries, .£68,000 being due to increased attendance, and .£156,000 to increased rates of salary. "That is ing fairly fast," he added. Mr. J. BOLLARD said he took a very great interest in the question of educAtion. He had been 51 years a membvr of the same .school committee, and for 45 years of that period he had been chair man. He . had begun that period , when tho school had 10 pnpils, and there v ere now more tlian 500. Ho was satisfied that too much money was being spent in Now Zealand on secondary and university education, in comparison with the amount spent on primary education. The result was that teachers wore not paid sufficiently high salaries. Having ventilated the question he was willing to witlidr*v his_ amendment. No objection was offered, and the amendment was withdrawn. Victoria College". . In reply to Mr. R. M'Callum, the Minister said that ho recognised the financial needs of V ictana. College, and something must be done for it on the Supplementary Estimates. Junior Cadets. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) asked what was the position of the Junior Cadet service. Since tho Estimates were drawn there had been a change of Government, and lie asked tho Minister to say whether he had decidcd upon a definite lino of policy in regard to the control of Junior Cadets. Tho Hon. J.. ALLEN said his idea was to make considerable changes in the Junior Cadet administration. He had made one change already. The.Commandant of Junior Cadets was now an area officer instead of Commandant of junior Cadets.

Mr. Russell: Do I understand that you have shifted Captain Stevens? Mr. Allen: Yes; he is now under military control absolutely. (Hear, hear.) He added that he proposed to make the basis of the cadet training physical drill on scientific lines. This training would be for boys and girls alike. Ho did not propose to do away with military drill for those of junior cadet age who wanted it. This would be entirely left to the boards to decide. He proposed to take the cadets away entirely from military control. All the military would do would be to provide staff sergeants for instruction purposes. Case of Captain Stevens. Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki) asked the Minister to state what the position was in regard to statements made by Captain Stevens before tho Education Commission. Tho MINISTER said that Captain Stevens had given some evidence commenting on his superior officer, and a complaint had been lodged by the senior officer.. Captain Stevens was suspended for a time. He would have been returned to his command but that the Minister had decided to abolish military command'of the Junior Cadets. .Captain Stevens had been given command of an area group, and was there now.Mr. NGATA asked whether the new system would apply to Nativo and other schools in the outlying districts. ] The MINISTER 'said that'in time tho nrstem would apply to all ; schools: and he hoped that it would not take long to convey the necessary instruction to teachers. In reply to Mr. Russell the Minister said that he hoped to get an expert in physical drill on scientific lines to take charge in succession to the manual and technical instructor now temporarily in charge of tho Junior-Cadets. The Edition and State Advances votes were passed and .the House rose at 1.50 a.m.