THE REFORM BILL.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1536, 4 September 1912, Page 8

THE REFORM BILL.

LEADER OF THE COUNCIL SPEAKS; THE METHOD.Oi , ELECTION;;';' '<■'; The Hon. H. D.'BELLv;^eaking;in;supi; port of the motion to go. into committee, on the Legislative Council"Elections Bill, (•aid the Council was awaTe that thence of the absence of ' party organisation of any kind, lie was.unable to surmi?e the leaning.of members on the question, of the-Committal of the- Bill. He ■lid npt. know the desires or opinions or morertha-n-one'or two.members..: :..- --. A voice: "-Neither does anybody else.' ': Mr. Bell f-aid he-:-was-just explaining his-, own -.position. .-.CDntniHing.'/Mrrißell Mil that-.he had endeavoured Jo make.

the issue on the Bill the question of election by the difect'voto of th't'people. Hβ left no room.for mistake. The Council, however, took-the matter,-so'far; out..of his-hands'. • Hon.. -gentlemen expressed their intention by tho voting, for the second reading, and declined to support a system of election by. secondary means. In view of'this fact he presumed that,the Council had determined to allow the issue of election by secondary or other means to stand over until this stage. The. Council had indicated that there should be a change.from appointment to election, but there it had paused, and the form of election had to be. determined. The Government invited decision on.this point, aud they now asked that it be determined in committee. If the decision was.to be postponed until next year, what, he asked, was the purpose. By no process could, they obtain the opinion of the people in a definite vote before next year. Assuming tljat the Council ' went into committee, and a majority was in favour of election by the vote of people, then valuable time would not have been lost. ■If a postponement until next year meant obtaining an expression of public opinion, he could, understand the argument for postponement, but in this case a measure detiuing the change could.not come into force until 1911. ' .

Neither Haste .nor.Surrender, of Right. ;"He,was as anxious as anyone :in the Council that, there should be: neither haste- iior surrender. n£ light,-, but was it not right that the Council should proceed with a change in.favour of which.it had declared.,-Ho thought it would be more in accord with the dignity, the. character, ami the. best traditions 'of the Council that it should proceed now to deal with the change. Tho Government desired that those lion, members who held their scats in the Council should tlemselves determine the question. If the matter .was postponed until Beit year, in what way could any-expression of opinion be obtained except that .the .representatives of the people should send the Bill to the Council ? Was this, he asked, the course that ; iiiost .accorded with' the traditions of the .Council? .Was the com'se-the Government proposed not (lie ..Bettor one? The Government; submitted that-, there was only. one. difference between, this year and,-next.'year, for 'the purposes of the consideration of the Bill, aud -™ s that at tiie. present tirno every rc.ember of-the Council had had the Till arid ..its principles, details, and machinery before him, and had carefully considered it. Next year this would not be- the caso to the same extent , . He had endeavoured to put the matter as it appeared to the GoVernment. If it was-the. opinion, of tho Council..that, the matter, must' an end for .this year,.whq umld. deny .the rigtit.of'tho Councifr'tb but members would not deny, the Government consideration of the reasons he had mentioned.

Hoir. J. D. Ormond's Amendment.The Hon. J. D. OKMOND said he had listened-with great attention to what tho Leader of the Council had said. In suggesting the postponement of the Bill until next year, he said a nunibeiv of members of -.-.tho Council had arrived at the conclusion that thi,s was the best course to.pursue. The point wSs, would they not better conserve the interests of the Council by a little delay. There had, naturally.: been converse amongst; members on the inatter at the conclusion of the late debate, and the best course to adopt- :had been discussed. He agreed that tho -Council had. affirmed the prin-. ciple of- election,-but there was a great deal between affirmation of that principle and the rest-of-the Bill. The people knew nothing about the machinery of the Bill, and that was, the reason many of the members supported a postponement. The Council, he was sure, would never be prepared to pass in any shape several of the main principles of the Bill, which the Government considered absolutely necessary to the measure. For instance, the division of the country into two electorates, and the election of tho Council on the same franchise as tho House would not be supported by a majority. The people had a right to.be consulted on these matters. Ho objected to having to settle tho question in-..the way they would have to settle it if the Bill was proceeded with. He would have to vote as ho spoke on the second reading—against the material parts of the Bill.

Possible Change of Opinion. He was not ashamed to say that after mature consideration of all the points involved he might change his whole opinion.—(Hear, . hear.)—and tho same thing might operate in changing the opinion of the public. He urged tho Council to think well before it dpalt with this matter; .There was no doubt that if ihey went on'now'some very important parts of the Bill would be entirely altered. Again, if the matter was sont on to the House of Representatives, members there would doubtless. desire to' postpone it until -.(.hoy. consulted their constituents. He believed they would do.this. It was asked how weroithey to get public opinion on the .question.' Well, after the session members of the House would have to meet their, constituents, and Ministers would have to do the same. In other ways also the public voice could be heard in a measure. By sending such a measure forward to this House a lot of (time would .be taken up which could be better spent on other matters. This question, important as it was, was comparatively a'second question in the eyes of the people. There were many questions more important than this to go on with. Mr. Ormond moved that all tho words after the word "that" bo omitted, with a view of inserting the words: "Tho Council is of opinion that, liaving affirmed that the constitution of tho Council should be altered from nomination to election, it is inadvisable to proceed further with the Bill until next session; in order that the electors of the Dominion may be given an opportunity of considerin" the proposals for giving effect to the. Bill. ..■■■-

An Unsatisfactory Method. The Hon. J. RIGG entirely disapproved of the amendment, although ho would have to vote for it, as ho thought the Bill should bo prevented from passing into law. It would have been better to have adopted his suggestion on the s?cond reading that tho Bill be read this day six; months. It would suit his pnrpost' that the' motion, should bt» carried, .but it was 'an .unsatisfactory way of dealing with the' question, and "would not add in- any way to the dignity of the Council. They had not true proportional representation under this-BilL- ■ \V-hat • llioy had was a system of single, transferable.votes.

Council Should Face the Position. I'Ke-Hon. H. F. WIGRAM sa'id he would be unable to- support the amendment. They had affirmed the elective principle, but had not'said what it should be. Tha people could not possibly give their voice on the Bill before next session. Pie thought the Council should go on witli the Bill, and state clenrly what its considered '.judgment was. H wos up to the Council to show that. con-?idcr;i*ipn generally of its own affair; that it hod given to' all other busines?' submitted to it. 00 liorje,q; tjia Qoansii IQUy, da it^e](

justice, and rovenl its courage by facing tho. position before it. Other Speakers. The Hon. C. H. MILLS did no! think a little delay would hurl. In fact, it would bo a good thing. Caucuses. The Hon. ,T. T. PAUL said tbn Councillors who wore opposed to tlic Bill should have shown by their votes how they stood—this was tlio honest way. When it was first suggested that the Bill should be, referred to ii Select Committee, this wag a means of killing the Bill. Mr. Paul took exception to caucuses of the Council on Bills such as had been done on this. Every action should lie. taken in tho open, and if they wonted to kill the Bill, they should do it straightforwardly, and let the people know where they stood. Mr. Paul argued that porportional representation would give, adequato representation to all the biff interests. The Hon. Sir WM. STEWARD pointed out that the Council was not busy, and could well afford the time to consider th'e Bill in Committee, and see what they could make of,it. If they could not whittle it into shape, they could report progress without asking leave to sit again. The Hon. li. A. LOUGHXAN said he had.voted against the second reading, but he liked, the amendment less,' and would vote against it. The Hon. IV. W. M'CAIJDLE also spoke. The debate was adjourned at 4.55 p.m., on the motion of the Hon. Geo. Jones.