IMPREST SUPPLY.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1530, 28 August 1912, Page 8

IMPREST SUPPLY.

THE STATE COAL VENTURE. FINANCIAL CRITICISM. Tho Imprest. Supply Bill, the third of the session, was introduced by Governor's Message. On tho question that the Bill bo read a second time, The Hon. ft. M'KENZIE (Motuekn) spoke of tho Stato Coal Department. He quoted a number of figures (inaudible for the most part) in delence of the State coal enterprise. It had been made to appear that the State was losing a great deal of money, and that the Stato had been competing unfairly with private mines, in that it did not pay royalties', and did not pay wharfage. He pointed out that no royalties were paid by Kaitangata or Taupiri Companies, because they,were mining on private coal lands. Tho State Department had also paid some .£13,813 as wharfage, and had derived no advantage, as '.against private owners, in tho matter of wharfage. He claimed also that the operations of the Department bad reduced tho price of coal. It must be obvious to thoso taking an impartial view of the State coal undertaking, that it had been of immense value to tho country. He had not had time to take out the profits earned by tho Department. Mr. G. M. Thomson: They didn't mako any. Mr. M'Kenzic said he ventured to say that tho profits of the State coal mine were about a quartar., of a million of money. (Laughter.) He thought thers would be strong opposition if the Government attempted to interfere with the State ooal mines. Ex-Treasurer on Finances. Sir JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) referred to a paragraph in the Budget bearing upon tho liabilities on all the different accounts. The Minister for Finance had submitted them without explanation, and he (Sir Joseph Ward) claimed that the statement of tho position on June 30 was apt to create a wrong impression, by reason of the fact that the last three months included in the period were the first quarter 'of the current year. Tho liabilities under tho l'ublic Works Account were misleading, especially because tho total amounts included among them could not possibly como due in the current financial year. The Statement mado the liabilities of this country look abnormally high. . Referring to tho State coal account, he "expressed tho opinion that tho mines had been of immense benefit, directly and indirectly to tho country. lie did not approvo the proposal to write off. ,£50,000. Tho amount should rathe? be transferred to a suspense account, to be eliminated gradually by profits. It was a low estimate to say that the Stato mine was- saving the people of "Wellington .1:50,000 a year, the people of Christchurch .£35,000, and tho people of the rest of New Zealand JE15.000. Mr. G. M. Thomson: "Who is paying it? Sir Joseph Ward: Pardon me, I am dentin? with oulv one aspect of it. I can't deal with two aspects of it at once. The people who are buying it aro paying for it. He claimed also that private companies and dealers had been compelled by State competition to Teduce their prices. He spoko also of tho statement of tho loans falling due up to tho end of 1919, .£23,156,178. 'Much of this amount would, he said, be converted into inscribed stock with a currency up to 1910, and tho renewal operations need not be difficult, because as was shown by experience investors in London were not so anxious as to renewal loans as they were about fresh loans. Investors knew that in renewal loans there was no proposal to increnso tho debt of the country. He declared that New Zealand was in a more favourable position in regard to renewals than anv other State of the Commonwealth. He pointed out that our loan operations were more successful than those of other Dominions. Wharfage on State Coal. Mr. J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) said that ho had been advised on the most credible authority that the Stato coal, mines paid no wharfage, So soon as it could be shown that the State mines were being run in the best interests of thecommunity he would be a supporter of them, Mr. G. M. THOMSON (Dunedin North) said that he, too, had no objection to State enterprise in coal mining. But ho did object, to tho mines being made to show a profit when they were not debited with such charges as royalty. If the book-keeping had been properly done it would be apparent- that the saving to nseis of Stato coal was being paid for bv the general taxpayer. 'Mr. J. COLVIN (Bnller) defended the State Coal Department from the reproaches generally leVeHeil against it. The Hon. W. FIURER (Minister for Minos) said that he did propose to discuss the accounts of tho State coal mines. Another opportunity would be afforded later when tho Coal Mines Bill would be introduced. There was in that Bill a proposal to borrow a certain amount of money in order io put the accounts perfectly square and right. He had been advised that the Department never paid wharfage at Wellington. The Union Company hail to pav it in order to laud the coal, but the State had always refused to pay it. Mr. G. WITTY fßiccarton) asked whether the Government would borrow more money for advances to settlers anH workers for the purpose of enabling them to , ,-jaj. fill existing mortgage^

Minister in Reply. Tho non. JAMES ALLEN (.Minister for iiniuice) replied to tho statements of Sir Joseph Ward. Tho reason why ho had submitted the liabilities on Juno 30 was because ho had taken over tho accounts of tho colony ten days after Juno 30. Ho had tried to Imvo tho accounts made up to July 10, but this ho had been unable to do. What he was desirous of showing to tho House was tho exact condition of the country's finances when he took them over. Ho admitted that there was a difference in the definition of liabilities given by the Public Works Department and tho Treasury. He maintained, however, that the amounts to bo paid before the end of the current financial year had been set out quite clearly. It was because of tho amount of these commitments that he had to ask for a loan of Xl,7")0,000. Ho wished, however, to say at onto that he differed from Sir Joseph .Ward in policy. Sir Joseph Ward's policy was to provide means up to the end of November, and lie (Mr. Allen) believed it to be thoroughly unsound finance to commit the Government to responsibilities and liabilities without having even authorisations to raise loans. Parliament might r6fuse to authorise the Joans afterwards. He thought the policy was unsound, and he was going to try to alter it, and tho reason tho loan was rather larger this year, was that it might provide for expenditure up to March 31 of next year. Mr. Myers: Do you mean to say this will carry you on for two years. Mr. Allen said he hoped the million and three-quarters would carry tho Government up to December 31 of next year, and that then there would be a balance in the general fund to carry the country up to March 31 following. A Lost Opportunity. He did not believe in a hand-to-mouth policy. If Parliament believed in it, let it say so. He did not believe the countrydid believe in it, and he was quito prepared to ask the country what, it did say in regird to this matter. The money market now was not very much easier than it had been; he hoped it would be easier in six months, to allow the loan operations to go through comfortably. Mr. Myers: What would you have done if vou had been in. my place? Mr. Allen': if 1 bad been in tho honourable gentleman's place I would have done very much as he did. Will tho honourable gentleman ask me what I would have don© three months before? For the opportunity was open three months before, and tho opportunity was not taken. Does the honourable gentleman know that? The money could have been, secured then ot a lower" rate, and under much moro favourable terms to New Zealand. The Government, he went on'to say, did not intend to slacken off in the policy of advances to workers, but he would not say at present that the Government would lend money for .repayment of old mortgages until money could bo more easily procured. Also local bodies would not be able to uorw.v from tho Government more than iC'iOOO, and larger local bodies must borrow from other sources. Tho second reading was carried on the voices. On tho question that the Bill bo read a third time, Loan Raising Discussed. Sir JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said he had mado it perfectly clear already why lie had not gone on with loan operations, in view of tho difficult position in which he found himself. Supposing money had fallen in the meantime, instead of rising, it would havo been said that he had acted very wisely. Ho urged that the Minister for Finance should not be afraid of going on the London money market lest a portion of his loan should bo left in the hands of the underwriters. Many cf the underwriters were really investors, attracted by the underwriting feo. If the Miiir istor proposed to force all tho moneys for local requirements on to the local money market, he would force the rate of inlerest up to an unnatural level, which v.ould be damaging to everybody. He was in ag:ee-mc-nt with the Minister for Finance in his objection to short-dated loans, lint it was not always possible to secure long-dated loans except at an unwarrantably high price. He argued that it would be a suicidal policy to seek to stop borrowin;*. Wo ought to stop saying or doing anything that was likely to be used by people in London to get the highest terms for themselves and against New Zealand, when ivo went on the London market for moners wherewith to continue our public works policy. It should always bo pointed out that we were not a heavily-taxed community, and that we had assets which were a magnificent security for investment. He thought the new Minister for Finance might easily renew all his loans at 31 per cent. He asked whether there was proposed to confer any special powers on the new general manager to be engaged. The Hon. W.jH. Herries: Just the same as before. Sir Joseph Ward said there would then be no divorcing of the railways from political control. For his part he was not in favour of handing over to the almost individual control of one man such a valuable national estate as the railways. The lato general manager, Mr. T. Ronayne, had done wonderful work in tho evolution of the railways under his control, and he doubted whether any new man could bring to bear tho varied experience that was so important to the interest of New Zealand. Other Critics. Mr. T. M. AVILFORD (Hutt) said-that the Minister had over-estimated his expenditure, and under-estimated his revenue, and ho would find himself in a comfortablo position later iu tho year. Then there would be a whoop of triumph about the wonderful result of the administration of tho new Government. The Hon. R, M'KENZIE (Motueka) harked back to tho question of wharfages paid on State coal. He said that no wharfage was paid on State or any other coal for use by the railways. All Stale coal for depots paid wharfage. Ho discussed at length and in detail tho point raised ro liabilities, showing that tho amount must always remain a more or less constant one at the end of each year, for the reason that it was impossible to have all works out of hand on March 31. He thought the expenditure had been over-estimated, and tho revenue over-esti-mated, no believed in safe estimates but they should be reasonable, and tho Treasurer would find that from this source alono he would have on hand at the end of (lie year close on a million of money. The liabilities upon which' tho expenditure estimates were based wero some of them only contingent liabilities, and tho public, reading the statement, would suppose that all the amounts set out-would be actually required this year. Ho was at a loss to know what tho proposal to borrow .£100,600 for the State Coal Mine Account meant. If it was intended to carry out the policy o'f the Ward Government and open a coal mino in tho Waikato, he would have'nothing to say about it, but ho could not think it was necessary for the present mines. A Grave Responsibility. The Hon. W. H. HERRIES (Minister for Railways) said it was amusing to hear Budget speeches now from the other sido of tho House, and very amusing to hear again tho cry of over-estimated expenditure and under-estimated revenue. But he pointed out that tho Estimates wero the Estimates of the Mackenzio Government. (Laughter.) Mr. A. M. Myers: Don't you take any responsibility for them? Mr. Herries: Yes, I am afraid we shall have to take a very grave responsibility. He added, that every Government must take responsibility, but tho now Government had not had time to prepare new Estimates. Mr. Russell: Why did you accept them ? . Mr. Herries: Because we did not think tho Mackenzie Government could be so traitorous to the country as to prepare misleading Estimates. (Laughter.) He twitted the member for Hutt—and jested at his expense—with spending Ins time digging in old tomes reading the speeches of members of the Ministry.. The effect was very noticeable ill a marked improvement in his speeches. If he went on rending one speech a day he might eventually gain the goal of his ambition, and become Leader of tho Opposition. The reference was especially to a reproach of Mr. Wilford that the Minister for Finnnce had complained about the reduction of interest to the Savings Bank. He (Mr. Herries) maintained that on. (he contrary tho present Government, instead of decreasing the rates,' as past Governments had done, and done quite recently, had kept up tho rale, and even increased it on the averMi. Wilford: That's hippodrome. Mr. Herries: I advise Ih? honourable gentleman to read nur speeches ;i little longer if he would asmre to be Jeadei g£ tlw vther, H_s. wfaj pa .to,.

speak of the opposition to the proposal to appoint a new general manager of railways. That had, however, already been one of the planks of th« late Government. What Ihey had done was to throw over their Governor's Speech. That was not fair criticism. If members of the Opposition wished to criticise the proposal, they ought to direct, their criticism to their own front-l>cucli members. Mr. Myers on the Loan. Mr. A. M. MYERS (Auckland East) spoke, of the flotation of the four and a half million loan. He defended his own share in that loan by quoting the frank admission of the Hon. Minister for Finance, that afternoon, that had he been in his (Mr. Myers's) position, he would have acted as he (Mr. Myers) had acted. The loan would, in fact, cost by interest some ±3 12s. per cent., excluding brokerage charges. This being so, ho thought it was a fair assumption to say that the Finance Minister could convert this loan into a stock 3V per cent, loan of 30 years' duration at ,£95. Thou the total cost of tho loan, including all charges, would be only .£3 17s. Old. per cent. He quoted from a speech of the Minister for Railways, deprecating the setting aside of sinking funds, on tho ground that they might bo appropriated by a succeeding Government. Similar disapproval of the sinking funds had been expressed by tho Prime Minister and the Minister for Justice, and members on the Opposition sido of tho House were getting anxious as to what would happen to the funds. The Hon. W. Eraser: We know what happened when you were on this side of the House. Mr. Myers said he hoped to hear from the Government that there was no intention of interfering with the accrued sinking funds. The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher: What did you do? Mr. Myers: We never did it. Mr. Fisher: No, but your party, did. Ton should carry back' political history : of your party, a little farther. Mr. Myers congratulated tho Minister for Finance on the clearness of his Budget. It was necessary to take tho country into his confidence. The finances of the country were in fact prosperous, and it was no good for Ministers to tell deputations that there was no money in the Treasury. As a matter of fact, tho Treasury was full of it. He had already como to "the conclusion w.hen he was Minister for Railways that it was desirable to have a, new general manager of railways. Mr. Nosworthy; That was our policy years ago. Mr. Myers said tho proposal had been embodied in the Governor's Speech of the Mackenzie Government. Sir. Nosworthy: You took it from us. Mr. Myers: You aro the greatest borrowing Government that has ever been on those benches. He would, however, support tho proposal to appoint a new general manager, as he would support all proposals ho thought good, whatever their authorship. Ho would have no objection to allowing applications from New Zealand—(Mr. Isitt: Hear, hear)—but ho did not think there w.as suoh a man in tho New Zealand service—(Mr. Wilson: Hear, hear.). This was not because tho men here had not tho ability, but because they had not had the experience of controlling a big service. Gambling in Futures. The Hon. W. FRASER (Minister for Public Works) said that tho late Treasurer (Mr. Myers) had shown tho House that ho was "gambling in futures." Was this a proper system of finance? What it seemed to lx> was an attempt to make the people believe that the loan was really only costing £3 17s. or .£3 12s. Whatever transactions ensued at the end of tho two years of currency of tho loan had nothing to dp with the raising of tho loan. The position might bo even worse at tho end of the term. The plain facts wore that tho investor's would get i per cent, per year, and' the loan would cost the country at least 5 per cent. He did not believe in short-dated loans. He disputed tho proposition of Mr. Myers that there was no need to bo so careful of entering into obligations ns to future expenditure. But the policy of the Government would bo not to enter into obligations until they knew what tho funds available were. That also would bo gambling in futures. State Coal Bother. Speaking of Stale coal, he said he had learned that for State coal for use by the railways no harbonr dues were paid, but on coal used by the, depots the greater part of harbour dues were paid. One rate of one penny per ton was not paid by the State, biit by the Union Company. He stated again that there was no intention on the part of tho Government seriously to modify the policy under which the Department was controlled. Mr. Wilford: How did the information get into the paper about closing? Mr. Fraser: I distinctly stated I had nothing to do with it, and nothing to do with putting it into tho paper. Mr. Wilford: A very queer tiring. Mr. Fraser: Not a queer thing at all. There' are people with vivid imaginations in this country who go and tell .newspaper reporters things. He added that the statement had not leaked out. That was absolutely contrary to fact. Cabinet had never said a word or done a thing to interfere with the working of tho coal mines. Mr. Ell: Why didn't The Dominion publish your denial? Mr. Fraser: I'm not the editor of The Dominion. I'm not a director, I'm not a shareholder. Em not going; to ask nnv panev to contradict anything. Mr. Wilford: Whero did they get that information? Mr. Fraser: Sinco vou ask rue, I should say that an enemy did it. On an Arrangement Broken. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) referred to tho remarks made as to cxMinisters not having spoken in tho Budget debate. This had fallen out for a special reason. A distinct arrangement had been mado with the Senior Government Whip that ex-Ministers on'tho Opposition sido should bo followed by Ministers. Tho Hon. F. M. B. Fisher: You're three to one. Mr. Russell named the speakers on his side who had not been followed by Ministers. There had been indignation in his party against what was regarded as a breach of faith. \ Sir. Guthrie (Government Whip): Absolute nonsense. Mr. Russell said that it had then l>eon decided that certain leading members of the party should not speak. Ho congratulated tho Minister for Finance on having admitted that Mr. Myers as Minister for Finance had made no mistake in floating the 4} million loan. There was a great difference between that statement and tho statements with which an attempt bad been made to inflame tho whole conntry when the Mackenzie Government wcro in office. He hoped the Government would continue the scheme for lending cheap money to local bodies if 'they wished to assist in tho best possible way the development of the country. Ho spoke at length about the recent renewal of JOBOO,OOO of Post Office debentures. Ho challenged the Ministry to write to the Secretary to the Post Office and ask him whether Mr. Myers (as Minister for Finance) had not arranged to renew at 3J per cent, the debentures which were afterwards renewed by his successor at 3} per cent. The Opposition as a party would stand by what the Secretary to tho Post Office might reply. He twitted the Prime Minister and other members of tho Cabinet with failing to keep promises mado at great public meetings, "when the drums were beating and the clarions booming." (Laughter.) The Government, Mr. Russell declared, had failed to keep a promise that it would reduce taxation. Tho Government had been guilty of neglect of promises and failure to como up to the scratch with the "square deal" which tho Budget had promised. About Tactics. Mr. D. H. GUTHRIE (Oroua) said he was not at all surprised that the member for Avon had adopted the tactics he had, because they were his usual tactics. He had interviewed tho Whip on the other side. Mr. Russell: You interviewed me. Mr. Guthrie: 1 interviewed the Whip to make arrangements for the conduct of the debate—that it should be carried on decently and in order. Mr. Forbes was unable to give me any information. Apparently there was not one on the other side prepared to speak, and he could not tell me even one member who was prepared to follow on. I slated that we inlanded to carry through this debate in a fair and square manner. But. Tie added, it. was impossible that all I heir sixteen ministers should b? followed by one of I lis *»# »a W« Go.viiiime.at titla. Cms,

eequently the Government had to make a choice. He told the Opposition \wiip that Mr. Allen would follow Sir Joseph Ward, that, Mr. Herdman would reply to Mr. Hanan, that Mr. Herries would'follow Mr. Myers, and that the Native Minister would follow the cx-Nativo Minister. None of those members had spoken, and until the end of the debate the Government party had been in tho position of holding their Ministers to reply to those members mentioned. They did not speak, and the Government party became so disgusted at the manner in which tho debate was being carried on that it was decided to close it down on Friday night. There had been no breach of faith whatever. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) declared in a personal explanation that the arrangement as to ex-Minislers being replied to by Ministers had referred only to niemlxirs of tho Mackenzie Ministry, and that that arrangement had not. been carried out. He believed that so far as Mr. Guthrie was concerned he had done his best to carry out the arrangement made. Mr. W. NOSWORTHY (Asliburton), the Junior Government. Whip, bore out tho statements made by his colleague, Mr. Guthrie. But Mr. Russell's statement was a miserable statement, which could hove come only from a very miserable mind. Mr. Speaker called tho hon. member to order. Mr. Nosworthy withdrew the remark, but said that in view of the hard work they had done to conduct tho debate squarely, tho member for Avon ought to be ashamed of himself. Mr. Russell asked to have this remark withdrawn also. Mr. Speaker, however, declared that it was Parliamentary language. Mr. G. W. FORBES (HurunuQ , tho Opposition Whip, said that he had always found the Government Whips fair and honourable, and he believed they had dono their best to conduct tho debate fairly. The "Headless Corpse," The Hon. F. M. B. FISHER (Minister for Marine) said that these unfortunate, misunderstandings must occur when negotiations had to be conducted with a headless corpse. (Laughter.) He staled that the Opposition had placed themselves in a strange position by criticising the Esti-. mates. Mr. Russell: They wero nearly our Estimates. Mr. Fisher: They would have ibeen, but for thre intervention of a kind providence. A complaint had been raised by tho Mackenzio Ministry that they would have done much had opportunity offered. But tho new Government had put forward what was in truth a very reasonable session's work. It could not be said seriously that the Government should have put all its cards on tho table in one session. Tho Mackenzie Government could havo dono a great deal to do away with a system of Ministerial tyranny which had grown- up, for it was Ministerial tyranny and nothing e!so. Thoy had had time, but they had failed to do away with the custom of referring, ©very detail to the Minister in charge. In tho Departments under his own charge ho found that a second engineer could not sit for an examination without permission of the Minister, that the Government Insurance Department could not appoint a part-time agent without the permission of the Minister, and that a boy could not go on the Amokura, after fulfilling all tho conditions, without tho permission of the Minister. All thie\had been done with the object of inducing a system of pandering to the Minister. Even the transfer r/ a gold-mining lease, a mere formality, must be referred to the Minister. The Mackenzie Government did not do anything to remedy this state of affairs. Mr. Myers: That is not correct. Mr. Fisher said that if the Mackenzie Government had mado any improvement it showed that the position must have been a sroat deal worse than it was now. Had tho late Government ever set up a Public Accounts Committee? Had they laid on the table of tho House particulars of the payments in connection with the Hine Inquiry? Ho declared, in conclusion, that SAbJ. Budget contained a live and progressive policy. The World in Pawn to London. Dr. A. K. NEWMAN (Wellington East) said that it did not matter two straws what anyono said two years ago, or ten years ago. As to the -loan/ he agreed absolutely with what the Minister for Ful> lie Works had said. He held that money would be permanently dearer. The whole world was in pawn to London, and tho whole of the world was going to London for more money than. London could supply; and that was the reason why moneywas going to bo dearer. As to the proposal to advertise in London for a general manager for the railways, he had at first though the idea a good one, but had afterwards taken tho idea home and had thought hotter of it. To take an imported man would be making a leap in tho dark, and it would be better to promote a local man. To keep a local man up to date, the system of commercial firms could be adopted—send a man abroad now and then. Tho management of tho railways had been very unsatisfactory in tho past. Mr. G. LAUREN SON (Lyttel'ton) contended that for some years money had gone steadily down in price, and that the time was approaching when nations would be able to borrow at 2 per cent. Ho was opposed to the idea put forward for the securing of a general manager. They had, he said, in Mr. T. Ronayne, the present head officer of tho railway service, a man who had joined ; the Department on the lowest rung of the ladder and had risen to his present; position. Ho remarked that there had recently appeared in the leading Methodist paper in Great Britain an article by Sir John Parkes, to which ho took very strong exception, as it had put the relative positions of New Zealand, and Canada in a light which was unfair to New Zealnnd. One of tho aims of tho High Commissioner should bo to ehoke a statement of that kind, to "soizo a lie like that and nail it to the counter as soon ns ho could get hold of it." f A Complete Democratic Policy. Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) said that tho present Government had done more than any other recent Government had done—thoy had brought down a complete democratic policy in a very short time. Laughter issued from the Opposition benches. Mr. Anderson: Hon. members may laugh, but that is the, position. Mr. Isitt: 1 am smiling because you abused it so when tho other people brought it down. Mr. Anderson remarked in reply to another interjection: "Wo have not done like the Ward Government did when it turned a complete somersault in four mouths from its previous policy." Continuing, Mr. Anderson supported the proposal to get a general manager for tho railways from Home. ne quoted figures which, he said, showed that the Stato Coal Mines had been run at a loss. • State Coal Again. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said that he did not believe that the State Coal had resulted in the loss which Mr. Anderson had alleged. Mr. Anderson: I quoted the figures. Mr. Isitt said that in any case, the State coal depots had done good by breaking down a monopoly, and in securing cheap coal for the bulk of the .people. A voice: Not the bulk; a few. Mr. Isitt said that it was deplorable that members should speak in the terms which they had employed respecting the Mow Zealand* railways. He defended the comparative standard of comfort and efficiency of our railways. He, abo, expressed himself as opposed to the proposal to import a general manager for the railways. Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) said that he feared that on the Government side of tho House there sat the old Conservative party, only a little more progressive than formerly. There was no anxiety to remove taxation from poorer people, but rather from the wealthier people who paid land tax and mortgage ' Mr. F. H. SMITH (Waitaki) said that ho believed that if any competent man were to investigate the concerns, he would fiud that the State coal mines were being run at a dead loss. Mr. J. B. HINE (Stratford) accused tho Mackenzie Government of rookies* extrnvaganvc in their short term of office. Ho defended a previous statement of his to the effect that public works expenditure should not be drawn from taxation, but from borrowing. Mr. G. M. THOMSON (Dunedin North) slid, in reply to the Opposition critic.-, that he had never attempted to discredit the State coal mines, but he disputed tho. wisdom of late Government in tlia.. .acfioiwis pi tta Statft Coal BepatM

inent so as to show a profit, when in point of fact they were not charging themselves with tho charges that private enterprises would have had to pay. If these charges had been taken, into account the State Coal Department would really have made a loss. Swallowed Him Too. Mr. G. WITT If (Eirearton) contended that it would bo idle to chargc royalties against State coal wlien it was only charging 0110 account against another. Tho yarn iu the Government paper about closing tho depots seemed to hi in "like a kite, to sco how the public would tako it." .Mr. Herrics: No, nothing of tho kind. Mr. Witty: Then, why was it not contradicted in. the paper? Hi'. Belt: Don't you accept tho Minister for Mines' denial now? Mr. Witty said he believed in the honesty of the Minister for Mines, and ho dill not blame hiiii for -what occurred. Ho accused the Government of swallowing tho Mackenzie policy, Mr. Nosworthy: Wo swallowed him, too. (Laughter.) Mr. Witty said the Government were sidestepping all sorts of reforms—learning a new kind of daueo. v Mr. Hine: 'that's a cako walk. (Laughter.) Mr. A. HARRIS (Waitemata) was of opinion that if the State coal mines could not be made to pay they ought to be closed down. But lie thought they could be made to pay, as coal mines were mode to pay by private owners. He did not think the general taxpayer ought to bo required to pay for cheap coal for consumers iu the city. Railway Manager. Mr. T. H. DAVEY (Christchurch East) said he did not believe tjiat it would Ihi fair or right to break faith with our r.n'hvaymon, and to import a general manager from England. Why not givo New Zealanders a chance to apply for promotion? Mr. W. C. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) advocated the appointment of a railway . manager from England. Tho plant and tho service were too valuable to experiment with a local manager. Ho would not say , the management of our railways had been disgraceful- but it had certainly left much to I>© dosi.fd. In Australian States, for instance, the railways were making a considerable profit. He hoped the Government would bring out a general manager. Mr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) said the Mackenzie Government, bo I'Ar from being extravagant, had not entered upon any new commitments for public works. They had simply carried ; on the works of (he country without in : any way increasing or enlarging tho ex- ' peuditure upon them. THE MINISTER REPLIES. , CORRECTS HIS CRITICS. The Hon. JAMES ALLEN (Minister for Finance) said that his experience of loans i to local bodies was that no local body that had not received £500 had ever been refused a loan. Ho endorsed tho policy , of limiting the amount' under the pre- ; sent condition, but if money became I cheaper the limit might be removed. It was all very well to say that money should bo lent for payment of inortgaecs, but it should not have preference over loans required for fresh purposes', such as the building of homes. Tho Government' would, so far as possible, continue, tho advances policy. Tho only explanation ho could give of tho State coal mino scare was that it was a deliberate plot by tho other side. They wore so _ short of criticism that they raised this bogy. He repeated that no alteration was made. ill the dates at which money was borrowed from tho Post Office Savings Bank. Ho had never said, as was represented, that ho would in the late Minister's position, have acted "exactly" as ho did. Ho had been careful not to use tho word "exactly"; what he had said was "very much." Mr. EU had challenged a statement of Mr. Allen's that no arrangements had been made for the ,£SOO,OOO loan. Ho read a statement from the Secrctarv of tho Treasury to tho effect that no arrangement whatever had bojii made with regard to the renewal of tho loan. Some talk had been done as to the Government not having brought in a Customs tariff. What had the previous Government dono • in the matter? Did the critics seriously consider that tho Government were going to bring down a Customs tariff in 3 weeks ? Ono of the complaints of tho Opposition was that the Government had reduced tho late Government's estimates of Tecoipts from territorial revenue. Of course tho amount had been reduced by ,£"0,000 or £80,000, beca.uso the Government did notpropose to go on selling the national estate, the nation's capital, and using it ,as ordinary revenue for all kinds of frivolous'purposes. The amount reduced was the amount expected to bo derived from sales of land. It was said that he had under-estimated the revenue. If that was so, so had his predecessor made, an under-estimate. A member: Two wrongs don't make a right. Mr. Allen: I can't estimate the revenue j tho head of tho Department estimates it. Mr. Allen said that they had, also, been criticised on the ground that they had done nothing respecting industrial questions. A member had complained that tho. Government had done nothing to reduce the cost of living by way of reducing the Customs tariff. Tho Customs tariff was only a paltry consideration in such a great question as the cost of living. If the revenue would permit it', the Government would, at a subsequent date, relieve tho taxpayers where they could. The Bill was read, a third time and passed. The House rose at 1.5 a.m. THE BILL. Tho Imprest Bill, which was tho nominal subject of debato in the House of Representatives yesterday, . provides for appropriations totalling £757,'100. Following are details:— FIRST SCHEDULE. £ Tho Consolidated Fund 500,000 The Public Works Fund 200,000 Opening up Crown lands for settlement account 0,000 The National Endowment Account 2,000 The Land for Settlements Account 2,000 Tho Stale Forests Account . 2,500 Tho Slate Coal-mines Account 25,000 The Scenery Preservation Account 2,500 The Wellingtou-Hutt Railway and Road Improvement Account ... 500 The Railways Improvements Account 3,000 The Native Land Settlement Ac-. count 100 .£743,600 SECOND SCHEDULE. • The Government Insurance Account 7,000 The Government Accident Insurance Account 1,000 The State Fire Insurance Account 1,500 The Public Trust Office Account 2,000 The New Zealand State-guaran-teed Advances Account— Advances to Settlers Branch Account 2,000 Advances to Workers' Branch Account 200 Local Authorities Branch Account 100 .£13,800