BUDGET DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1518, 14 August 1912, Page 8

BUDGET DEBATE.

WffCES PAID TO WOMEN. MR. G. W. RUSSELL EXPLAINS. FURTHER COMMENTS BY MR v ' -FISHER-. 0 The Financial Debate was resumed at, ".10 p.m. Five minutes were devoted to a personal explanation by Mr. Russell anil a reply thereto by the Hon. F. M. li' 1-ishor. Mr.G.. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that tliD Minister tor Marine had accused him of signing his nnmo to a schedule under which a woman employed in the Government Printing Office was paid ,£9G per i yeai, while at the same time a young woman employed in another branch of the public service was receiving over ,£'oo per year. The fact was, that as Minister in charge of the Government Printing Office, he had been able to give substantial increases to everyone employed in that utttitUtioil. The SPEAKER intimated that the hon. member must confine 1 himself to the subject' of thfe' misrepresentation.. .. Mr. Russell said that this year's Estimates, as compared with last,' w ; 6uld show that- the' wages ' of; two. forewomen had been raised from .£l3O a year to il6o, and tho wages of two other's from. J29G to •£lOl. Forty-three folders, ; sewers, etc., had had their wages increased as follows: —Eight from ,£7S to ,C!' 2; eight from ,£72 to ,£SB; eight from .£O3. to <£82; seven from JCaO.to ,£65;. twelve from J252 to .fiiiSl 10s. Altogether, the- position wa-s that last year's salaries passed by the House for 13 women (foldersami sewers) .'inimmi--cd to ,£2757. an average of ,£6l 2s, id. 1 hu. rear's Estimates provided a sum. of

£2915 for .17 women employees, an average of .£7B 15s. Sd. Tile position wa-i probably unprecedented in connect i.-.m with any bepartment in the public service, lie had received Hie united thanks of the whole of the service for the consideration given to these women. With regard t». (|| t . •statement by the Minister for Marine that another woman had received a vtitrv of over JiaK), it was not true that any woman received such a salary for tlni'i: class of worlc, and he defied the Mini-ler to prove it.

[ Tint Hon. V. M. B. FISHER. said that ho had quoled from a schedule of salaries paid in tlio Government I'rintirifr Olfico the case of a woman who 'hud served for 27 yours, and was receiving .£',lll a year. Tile .schedule was signed U. W. Russell, -Hay 21, It was a schedulo that the lion, gentleman issued when iie was Minister. Mr. Fisher said tlmt ho proposed to lay these figures on the table of fli'o House. ]f Mr. Russell had subsequently raised sonic ot' the salaries ho ' was very Rind to hear it. Sir. Fisher .continued that lis had pointed out ill his .speech that it seemed to be obviously unfair that a tradeswoman who had served for XT years should be paid only i£l)G a year, whilst a woman wlro did typewriting ill another office should reeejve nearly .£3OO. Mr. Russell: In what Department? Mr. Fisher: In the Treasury. Department. The lion, gentleman can get full particulars by applying for a return. Mr. Russell intimated that lie. would do so.

AN EX-MINISTER. RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION AND , OTHER MATTERS. !. Mr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) declared that there were very few new items in the Budget of a very iniportant nature.' Financial Teform and re i or in of the Legislature, two of the most important changes- proposed, wcro , questions that bad been before the House for years. When the Liberal party had come into power twenty years ago the country was_ crying out for a progressive policy, not in the interest of any class, .this policy the Liberal party gave to the country. The older members of the party in Opposition had said that they were proud of tho name "Conservative," but ; now tliev, with all other men in Parliament were exclaiming that they wero Liberal and progressive. No mail could hope to get elected to Parliament who was a! Conservative nowadays, wherefore he claimed that tho Liberal party had lieen responsible for a great change in tho trend of political thought in this country. He believed it was the bonndeu duty of tho Government to provide suffi- £ le iJi nioll °y through tho Advances to settlers Department to enable farmers to develop their holdings olid make them. more productive. He hoped there would be 110 change in the Government policy of railway construction. It had been proposed to construct some lighter branch linos, and there had been suggestions that the prc;Sent. method of making the lines -by cooperative labour would be discontinued. Ho hoped that no important • changes would he made without very careful consideration. Ho had gone carefully into the question of railway construction, end ho was satisfied that, the saving liy construction of, light railways would bo about 10. per cent. He regarded the pre-: sent lines as only light lines by comparison with the main lines in other States. Ho hoped the past policy Of railway construction would be followed, and that there would be no reduction in expenditure under this head, building-of light lines might bo left to county councils. He. defended tho co-operative works system, by which, ho said, the' railways were, being constructed as expeditions'! v nnd as economically as possible. It was also a good system for the worker, iu that.-it found work for unemployed men. If these works were to be carried "on by contract, the contractors would employ only the very best men available, and those not so fortunate v.ould be turned out on the road. He regretted very much to hear from the Government that the State could not itny longer provide for alt the moneys required for local' bodies. This would bo ;i hardship, and ho hoped there .would lie 110 diminution in tho amount of money made available under tho State Guaranteed Advances Act., Ho was satisfied as 'a result of his experiences at last election that there ought to be some electoral reform. Ho was thoroughly in accord with the Prime Minister in tho proposal to increase the salaries ofGoveriiiuoiit surveyors iu order to retain sufficient surveyors in New Zealand to-carry out the urgent and extensive survey operation's required ill this country. He hoped that tho Government" would continue tho irrigation and hydroelectric schemes embarked upon throughout New Zealand. 110 was chiefly concerned, however, in urging the Government to see that sufficient money was made available for the carrying out of much-needed development works in tho back-blocks, and for tho promotion, of. land settlement.' If the Government: brought down satisfactory .proposals for. the settlement of the waste'lands of the country he would support them. Closer settlement would increase the productive, power of tho lands and enable (he country to carry'out the humanitarian legislation now'in tho Statute Books. THE MEMBER FOR RANGITIKEI. DEMOCRATIC, PROGRESSIVE, PRACTICAL BULGJJT. Mr E. NEWMAN (Rangitikei) congratulated the previous speaker ou the moderate tono of the remarks lie had made in criticism of the Government. Mr. Macdouald had declared that light lines'would not pay, but ho (Mr. Newman) argued that the lines would'bo used as feeders for the heavy lines, and that they could bo built much 'more c,hcaply than Mr.' Macdonald appeared to suppose. It was all very well for Mr. Macdonald to say that tho Government should go ahead with borrowing for public works and land settlement, but after the reception of the last five million loan it was surely not wiso tluit we should go ou the London money market move than neccssary. Mr. Macdtiuald had justified the expenditure 1 on. the new Parliament Buildings.-- He (Mr. Newman) believed that tho work had been done to commit the Government 1 to complete tho job, and tho new Govern- ! mcut. regarded the expenditure as waste- , ful. Iu his opinion tho Budget was one of tho most open and impartial statemerits of tho Dominion's effairs ever pre- 1 sented to Parliament, and tho out-standing - feature about .it was the clearness with j which the Minister foi- Finance gave tho present Opposition party credit for anv good that they had done. The first higli 1 office that the new Government bad at their disposal they appointed— chorus of laughter led by Messrs. Isitt and Russell). . The High Commissionership.. j Mr. Newman: Since I .have been in t polities I have never seen the Government j go out of its way to hand out offices to an oppiment. , c Mr. Isitt: Egmont seat! . t Mr. Russell: Why, you couldn't find a f man suitable for it on'your side! j Mr. Newman: I don't think it was done, to get the Eginont seat. 1 Mr. Hine: Why didn't they appoint' one? Mr. Newman said that the Hon. T. * Mackenzie was n very suitable man for j the position, and tho appointment was a . popular one, and t'he opinion was that f the Government had made u good eelcction..' J Mi-. Forbes: A good bargain. Mr. Newman: Tho sort of bargain tho 1 Into Government would never J 1 have made. He. cordially supported the proposals of the Gov- 0 eminent to push ahead closer settlement '' with absolute security of tenure to the I holders. Ho thought some encourage- ■ ment might be given to large holders to ? cut up their areas, but he admitted that f there were some large-estates which wero ' so well mahaged that a subdivision would f not be in the interest of' the State. It * would bo impossible for the State to find P all the money required for advances to * settlors, but it w'ould find enough to * seWe to b?ep t'ae rate of interest down, d arid that wfe the object for wkiob the s Department was established. He Was glad * to see that the Government had intro- * dueed some proposal; to secure justice to « tlio settlers in regard to the valuation of u I (mil. The inadequacy of the allowance v for improvements in ascertaining ihe un- p improved value was a burning question y with settlers. There seemed to h:> some d extraordinary idea ot' the., unimproved ti and improved value of land. Some people « thought lliat increase, in the value p [if farm laud was due always to ,i population. The lajid had in fact in- h :reased in'value because of the increo/e n ill tile price; of our staoje orcducts—wooL L>]

frozen mutton, ami butter. If there were ii Mibsta nt iai drop in the price (if t] R .c,. commodities, land would vcrv.. s.ii>n come ileum in price. It was time the U'jni "unimproved vain?'' was dropped. Ik. j n . stauced tin* cur' of liis- own lanil in show that no valuer could possibly discover I lie true unimproved value. Some of it had been covered with standing bush and .-onio of it had cost ,C| per acre tii Hear. The valuer could not pee that !>i!-h; the land had been ploughed twenlv times since then. .It could not. hut he admitted that, the proposals contained in the Budget were democratic, progressive ifiul practical. Already there was a' lj.uoyancy in the country which did not exist before the present Government eaine into oflice. There was n. feeliii" of security which had not: existed previously, and which would mean that the price of lnoiiey W'ould ho kept from rising unduly. This security would stimulate tho business of the country and feu-lit Iho workers, who, most of all. suffered by the enects ot bad government, which destroyed industry.

STATE COAL.

A DISASTROUS EXPERIMENT. SOME INTERESTING FIGURE?!. Mr. G. M. THOMSON (Dunedin North) congratulated the . Minister for Finance on the excellent Budget which he lmd - presented. It. was .a plain unvarnished j>taU»ineiir. of' the position of the eountrr iiijul of tho proposals of the Government. It had its. defect?, but they were duo' to "J. Hme f" T reparation. He was glad that the debate had been freo from party recrimination, and would himself take a similar line, but h c wished to (iii-ssnt from the st.itoment of tho mnniber for the Bay of Plenty that the livdroeleetnc scheme had been opposed by tho present Government. The scheme" had not been opirased by the present Government, and so far as he knew he was not aware that it had been opposed .bv any member behind-the present Government. - \\ hat the}* had taken exception to was that the late Government brought down n borrowing Bill proposing to- raise .£500,000 a year when there was no demand for the money. In tho first year of the scheme the Government had spent only .£SOOO, and expenditure in the following year had also been very small. Half the borrowing proposed by the Government would have amply provided for the development of the schema. A great body of power could not be suddenlv disposeil of in a community that was already obtaining power from other % sources. ' Mr. Thomson went on to state that a Socialist paper had claimed him as a comrade because he had.asked the Government to kok into the question of nationalising tho fisheries. A Vanishing Point. Some j-ear.s ngo the Government had nationalised certain coal mines, and tho experiment had resulted disastrously. During the years from 1007 to 1911 the State Coal-mines claimed to have made these profits:— £ 1007 ' 8101 IMS • 8440 . 1909 ' 6252 1910 J....:...........; 2309 ' ,1911 ; ~51 This was. coming 'do'wn to a vanishing point. Tho Department claimed to liava mails during tho fivo years profits amounting to .£25,544. .Any industry parried on by the State ought to be financed just as if it were carried on by a private individual or company, and it ought to show on. the debit side the.s.amo chargcs as a private individual or company had to pay. Otherwise, Hie accounts of a , State enterprise woro not. correct. There w-crp two items with ■ which the Department had not charged itself iis.it ought to have done. All companies and all individuals mining coal paid h State royalty cf fid. per ton. The stale had not charged itself sixpence p3r ton royalty. He could not find that it. had charged itself mm penny royalty. The amounts thai should have been so charged were:— e 1907 4912 ' 1908 ,1932 191)9 591(! 1910 51SS 1911 ... 6155 State coal coming into. any port and destined for the Railways or any other State Department, was admitted free of wharfage. Tho ordinary wharfage rate was Is. per ton. Taking the two items of royally and wharfage into account there had Ijqpii a loss to. the country on the State Coal Mines during the 'past fivo years of <£'28,2G0, the amount for each year being:— X 1907 2.18G 190S ' 5,542 1909 4,775 1910 S,GGG • 1911 -...: r 10,097 Taking tho figures for • 1908 the Railways were charged in that year 20s. 3d. . per ton for State coal. They used 87,000 ; tons. Other Government Departments, were charged 17s. sd. -per ton, and tho shipping'companies and private individ- ' uals were charged lis. per ton. He de- ' sired to give as favourable an oxplana- ' lion of the?o figures as possible. The railways used only the best screened coal, aii:l other Government Departments used mixed coal,. The difference in price between the two grades of coal was 2s. lftd. ! per ton. That might be a fair- estimate, but private consumers only paid lis. per 1 ton. free on board at GreymoutJi. In ' 199S freights amounted to 55.-per ton—it ! was higher now—and wharfage was Is. If a fair estimate could bo got by a man who knew tho subject it would be found that tho State had overchnrged-ilself and' ' that the Railways had paid something ; ike Is. more per ton than thev should '■ have done. . 1

Bearing the Cost. Tho Hail ways and other Stato -Departments had been mndo to bear the cost of the Stato Coal Department and he believed that it had been a huge risht from the day that it'started. Jlr. ltus.-oll: J\ hat, about reducing tho cost to the public? jrr. Thomson: I don't know whether it lias allotted Christehurch. It has nfl'oet ed Wellington to a considerable' extent and the Wellington people lifive benefited No- doubt many people up the line havo beneiited also., • '' fls lowered the price Christchnrch at least 2s. 6d. a ton Mr. Thomson: I am very glad to hear it. I am quite certain that it has not brought, down the prices in Duiiedin, and I don't think it i.hns brought, down prices in Auckland Only recently, he continued,'the Depart ment had raised its prices by is. per ton and quite .lately it had raised them £ another 2s. per ton. One at least of th'e coalmines had fizzled out. Ho believed that it had been a dead all along the line.. The Seddonville mine had been producing coal of which fifty pe r ce J was i ost It was "shattered" coal, whwi could not be used on the railwavs, where there was anything in the nature' of .3 forced draught. For instance, it could not be used on the Rimutaka Incline. Wages of Miners. Mr*. Thomson said that lie could not get information as to what Runan-a township had cost the Government, but lie. put it down at not less than a thousand a year. No doubt the matter would be looked into. During the last six months tho wages paid to miners "at the Stato coal mines had averltged '18" Gd' per day. This was for a day f,f fii fjo„ r / and not an eight-hour-day, for the bank-to-bank clause reduced tiie actual hours of working. The last payment of the-i* miners had amounted to 19s. per din- lie i va3 , t Ul^, last; mil iu tho world to find fault with any man for. getting the .best price that, he could for his labour but ho wanted to contrast, these, wages' with the amounts paid to other State employees. In the Education Department there were thirty, clerks, who had been picked out of pujilio schools undSr a system of competitive exaininatiOh. - One'of them was paid .-BUS a year (7s. Sd. per day); two were paid .2125 (Ss. 4d. per day)■ seVin received .£l3O (Ss. Sd. per dav) and three got =£135 (9s. her day). The' last was a labourer's wage. Theje people were expected to dress in a particular' wny; they were placed in surrounding where they were put to far greater e'v penso than if thev were labourers, aiid yet. tho miners got 19s. per dav. jj { , did ii.it find fault with the minors jjetting it. but there was something wron" when the people in the Education I)e" ■parlmeut got these small rates of wagci. »u<l th» other people, were siren' vjfry high w.igts. Ho admitted the pjemsnt of donsfer, but education onrl attainuisnts >han!'i. "cunt for something

Our Coal Running Out.

Kcsumi'.ig after the 'adjournment, ho said that tho Depai f'lih-nl obtained from tho railways a differential price, as against, (lie rale obtained from Gu- public. 41' this difference were debited, the figures which he lmd submitted would best ill under the marl;. His objcct. in pre-' .-eating the figures was not . to. disparage the late Government, lie thought they hud made a huge" mistake, but. having made it, they had to keep it. up. And, unfortunately, the Government that was now in power would have to keep ii up. If we- .suggested, too, that another .£109,000 would have, to be found to pay the cost of development work in the new mine, and to pay un money already spent. It was a matter of'public knowledge, that the Seddonville mi lib was practically worked out, and it would have to remain idle; hence the necessity for <£10(1,00(1 for development work. He proceeded to deal gem-rally with* the coal reserves of New Zealand, because, as he. said, now the 'country was faced with proposals to develop our iron deposits, and he wished to show the position, so that members of the House and llie public, geherally could realise where they stood in regard to coal areas. Professor Park had estimated tho amount of bituminous coal in the Dominion at. 254,000,000 tons, pitch coal 300,70U,000 tons, and brown coal 520,589,1190 tons, making a total of 1,081,000,000 tons. In these totals only scams of 2ft. and over were estimated. Allowing for increasing consumption, he estimated "that our coal would be exhausted in 138 years. The inevitable must come, and our coal deposits should be worked with scientific skill and economy. Mr. I'. Morgan, director of our geological surveys, had prepared a later estimate. 110 had assessed bituminous coal at 374,000,000 ions, pitch coal 114,000,000 tons, brown coal 513,000,000 tons—a slightly lower estimate, lie considered that tho total amount of coal available in the country at 3,386,000,000 tons. Of the proved total of *1,001,009,000 tons, Mr Morgan said that probably one-half was not workable under present economic conditions, and those to bo expected in the near future. Tho fields now being worked contained the best and most cheaply-worked deposits. Future generations* would have, to be content with inferior coal, won at greater expense. The annual production of coal had increased rapidly 'until in 1910 it was 31,718,000 tons. Of this, only about half cauld bo saved, and according to the present rate of consumption our ccal would ruu out in 50 years. There possibilities, of course, in connection with coal-mining, but we were wasting our patrimony in many directions, and this waste of coal was one of them. The production of coal was more than doubling itself every ten years, and the production of bituminous coal was increasing moro rapidly than that of tho non-bituminous, and the whole of thu bituminous coul would be .exhausted; in le.ss than 50 years. TI-.b lime was probably coming, however, when people would cease.to mine coal, at any rate for consumption in the country whero it was produced, and to carry it to other places to be used. It was within the limits of probability that in. a few .years methods would be devised by which coal would be utilised at the plnce of production, (ind the power developed from it, would be transmitted: This would do away with an enormous waste of coal.

Parapara Iron. i He referred also to the -proposals bo- • forr- the country to develop our iron resources. He had been asked to further the ; scheme proposed by Mr. Witheford for I tho importation of a plant : costing .£650,000 to develop iron resources. But if the country were to pay 5 per cent oil t EGSO,OOO for 40 years, it seemed to him that: it. was an uncommonly good ! proposal for ' tho man seeking to bring money into the country; especially as.tho Government was to take over the works at the end'of 40 years. But it was ftlr-o-lutc nonsense for this country to tail: cf producing-iron for export. 'With the cost of labour as it was to-day, and us it would remain for some years to come and with enormous. ironfit-lds in India and China where labour was a negligible quantity, we could never compete successfully. Our iron ores wore probably the richest in tho world. In the. Parapara deposits tliero were about 11} million tons of iron. To convert this into pig iron would, require Gl- million tons of coal, and to convert it into wrought iron, or steel would require about 22 inilliun tons of coal. He hoped the Government would tako great care before entering upon a system of bonuses.