FINANCIAL DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1515, 10 August 1912, Page 6

FINANCIAL DEBATE.

MR. Q. W. RUSSELL AS CRITIC. CRUSHING REPLY BY MR. FISHER. SOME KEEN THRUSTS. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said Hint it had fallen to his lot to review the financial position, of tho country, as ,dis-; closed in tho Budget. Ho congratulated the Finnneo Minister on tho speed with which thoßudget had been brought down. It was a most important Budget—epochmnking in its character—for the party to which ho belonged, which had occupied tho Treasury benches for 21 years, mid brought this country to a high state of prosperity, and retired from the Treasury benches leaving thoi finances flourishing. AVhcu the Liberal Government took office 21 years ago the country was not prosperous. One of their planks was to attack monopoly, and they did it by'establishing State- Firo Insurance, and Stato Coal-nvincs. Ho was glad to note that tho Government did not propose to go back on the Stato Coal-mino 'venture. Tho change of Government was not justified by tho vote of tho people of the country. This was certainly so, for when tho House first met to test tho strength of parties the party now occupying tho Government benches 'numbered only 38. Tho election returns showed that 199,000 people voted in favour of the Ward Administration, 182,000 for Mr. Massey's party, and 97,000 for Labour and Independent members. So thnt thero was a majority of 114,000 votes recorded against tho Massey party. About a Majority. How was that majority obtained?—By four members elected to support the Literal Government voting for the overturn of tho Mackenzie GovernmentMessrs. Reed, Clark, Millar, and T. W. Rhodes. Ho believed that Mr. Reed had been first returned through the efforts of the Prime , Minister and tho Liberal organiser in his electorate. At the caucus at which tho leader of tho part} - was selected, Mr. Reed had been the gentleman who first proposed the Hon. T. Mackenzie. When tho Ministry was being formed, Mr. Reed had been greatly in evidence. He had said ho had been offered a- portfolio. That was not true. He was in fact feverishly anxious to secure Cabinet rank. The Prime Minister: Don't givo secrets away. ' ilr. Russell ' went on to say that although Mr. Reed professed to have changed his. party because lie could not belong to the leasehold Mackenzie Government, lie was perfectly willing to accept office in that Government, knowing that three leaseholders were certainties for that Government. He referred next to Mj. T. AV. Rhodes, editor and proprietor of a newspaper, and quoted from Mr.. Uhodes's paper friendly references to tho Ward Government. An lion, member: Tlint wasn't the rickptty Government. - (Laughter.) Mr. Russell also stated- that the paper had been purchased by somebody else. It would be interesting to know where the money came from. Mr. T. W. Rhodes: Who paid it? Mr. Russell. It would bo of considerable interest if wo could find out who paid the money.. Mr. Rhodes: It was not to mo. (Laughter.) Discussing the personnel of the Ministry, he enlarged upon the fact that five meml>ers of the Ministry wcro residents of Wellington; two were" residents in the north of the Xorth Island, one came from Canterbury, and one from Dunediu.

A Difficult Task. . Ho said that-tho new Minister for Lands would have o dillicult task if lie could accelerate land settlem'cnt more than tho Liberal Government had done. There wero on tho lands of Now Zealand 28,163 selectors, holding 19,351,93G acres, ami payijijj annually j£fi4-i,OQO into tlie revenues of ihe Stale, it woul-.l require ranch effort on tho part of the' Prime Minister to placea greater number of people on tho land than had been placed during the last few years, lie did not believe that after all his party had any cause to regret the fact that -there had been a change, of Government.. Yo'.uifr men and young women hud grown up in this country who knew nothing of Liberalism and Coiifervntifm except as more names. Dci'ore six months were over these younjf people, would find the effects of Conservative Government. (Laughter.) They would find thorn.to of interest going up. (Laughter.) Before many mouths they would once more have, unemployed looking for work, and people wohlil very quickly uo able to see. and know what was tho difference between the Conservative Government and n Liberal one. Why was tho Hon. Mr. Ilcrdman Attor-ney-General, while another member of tho Cabinet was a King's Counsel and tho leader of tho Bar of this country? Tho leader of tho Upper House was a man of conspicuous ability, and ho had the comparatively unimportant portfolio of Internal AD'airs. A Government member: That's the portfolio you had. Mr. BußSoll said he was anxious fo know what tho Government would do about the Crown Law Office, (he. establishment of which had bean one of the best acts of the late Liberal Government,

Ono firm of lawyers had drawn from ■ i £1000 to .£SOOO a year from the Govern- i ■ luent beforo the Crown Law Office- was i ( established. I i Mr. Hell: You had better be careful. Mr. Eussell: I don't need any injunction from the honourable gentleman to bo careful. A great part of tho malignant hostility towards tho Ward Government in Wellington fur years past was because they established tho Crown Law Office, and removed most of the law business of tho Government from tho firm to which [ havo referred. The Pigcon-Holes. Ho congratulated the Finance Minister on the prosperous state of the exchequer lit the opening of his year. When tho Ward Government was in offico there was n cry of "maladministration," and "lot another parly get to the pigeon-holes." Mr. Buchanan: Don't bo in a hurry, (Laughter.) Mr. Enssell argued that the uarty had jjeen in power long enough to find out irregularities if they existed, and tho Budget mentioned nothing about them. The policy of tho Budget was much tho same as that of tho previous Government. An lion, member: What do you object to, then? Mr. Eussell asked what had tho country gained by turning out tho Liberal Government? Mr. C. K. Wilson: Heaven. Mr. Eussell declared that all tho good things in the Budget were stolen from tho Liberal party, and the rest were worthless. Ho described as wild aud reckless in the extreme tho proposal to pay into the land purchase account tho money received for land purchase. After mentioning <Ecvor.il items of policy of tho Budget, he said: "This is tho way tho financial Statement has been padded up with matter supplied by tho heads of tho Departments to make a show." "Stolen Proposals." Tho Government had stolen a number of proposals from the Opposition. Ono of these was Legislative Council reform, and another local government reform. Tho Government had stolen tho heart out ol tho Bill that he had brought down, and now intended to pass it off as their own. I Postal extension, automatic telephones, tho graduated tax, invalidity proposals, and the repeal of the second ballot were other "steals." (Laughter.) Mr. Kussell said th-it, in the coolest manner possible, this thieving Government had stolen these and other proposals. Tho member for Parnoll knew that ho (Mr. Kussell) bofore the Hospital Board at Auckland advocated everything about public health that was in this Budget.. The whole ol the policy in regard to industrial affairs had been 6tolen. Small fruit farms on the gumfields had been advocated by the Mackenzie Government. It was a piece. of tho grossest plagiarism for the Government to steal the proposals in connection with Australian reciprocity from .the pockets of their opponents, without saying where they got them. Tho supplying ol details of tho public accounts on tho Canadian plan had been carried so far by the late Government that specimens of the accounts had been laid before the House. Mr. Eussell detailed many other policy proposals which he alleged had been stolon from tho Opposition. He accused the Minister of Finance of annexing tho public'debt extinction proposals of tho Ward Administration, though when in Opposition ho- had denounced these proposals. Ho asked ".vherc the Government Bill to deal with insurance against unemployment was which had been promised by Mr. Allen before taking office. Mr. Payne: I am .bringing in a, Bill about that.

Mr. Russell predicted that if the Government adhered to their policy they would be compelled to increase the indebtedness of the- country by -C 1,500,000. Members would seo by pago 48 of the Budget that the Government proposed .to increase the annual'expenditure of tliis country by ,€451,000. On five Departments tho Government was proposing an additional expenditure of as compared with the previous year. He had never been of .opinion that the graduated taxwas a■• very 'effective means of bursting up Lvge estates. A' better plan woul'd be to compel large holders to settle their land on d fair basis within three or fivo years.

Thrown to the Wolves. Tho' Government had thrown the largo landholders to tho wolves, but what was going to happeiv to the largo mortgagee. He could namo four or five men connected with tho politics of this country who controlled, probably not less than ten millions of money. The Government was making no proposals to deal with these nien though tho Prime Minister had sacrificed his former friends, tho largo landholders. Mr. Fisher: You sympathise with them because' you are a large landholder. Mr. Eussell criticised an article on "Cheap Money" which had appeared in' The Dominion. He challenged the Pri-mo Minister to grant him a return showing tho amounts of mortgages held in tho country. Hitherto the return had been refused. Tho Budget gave no light and leading on- public and social questions. Thero was nothing in it for the towns and cities. Tho Government did not dare to touch industrial questions because, being a farmers' party, it was committed to a policy of I'ree-trade. If any attempt was raado to grant the freeliold to renewable lease tenants the Opposition would fight the proposal to tho last ditch. As a statement of policy the Budget was useless because its be.it features had. been stolen and its other features wcro weak, as would bo shown, ho believed, when their policy was brought down in tho shape of Bills. HON. F. M. B. FISHER REPLIES. MR. EUSSELL AND HIS PARTY. The Hon. 1\ M. B. FISHER eaid that it was very gratifying that tho lion, gentleman had not been able to find as much fault with tho Budget as his opponents might have expected. The tactics of the lion, gentleman had been tliofo ho had pursued for years past. Mr. Russell had said that when tho'Liberal Administration took office, twenty years ago, great principles underlay its policy: Also, ho had said that tho Liberal Government had attacked monopoly. These things wero, true. It was also true that when State coal mines were first proposed Mr. Russell attacked his leader in such terms that tho Speaker interrupted him and told him that ho was degrading tho tone of Parliament. Mr. Khsspll was a member of n party which had never trusted him and had never behoved in him. I might say that his colleagues in the parly havo inherited the opinions of their great predecessors; A Quotation from Hansard, Mr. Fisher quoted tho following from a speech by the lato Mr. Scddon in 1901:—

"What was tho lion, gentleman trying to do last night? Was not ho endeavouring to introduce a third leader? Yes, Sir, ei'o (he remains of tho lato Leader of tho Opposition were cold, wo find the member for Riccarton endeavouring to force himself on the benighted party opposite. But, Sir, tho iion. gentleman in this speech further says 'there must ere long bo a reconstruction of the Ministry.' That reconstruction has not taken place, and hence the bitterness of the speech of last evening. Might I s»y to the lion, gentlomaiv that with lus ability it is a pity there is not. moro stability. And ho must admit that with ability (he finer I'ceiiiißs of mankind are always appreciated, and ' tlio-e who posse.-s them avo generally s(.'li!u(o(l and supported by their fellows. But, Sir, where there is .-> want of thoso finer toolings, .mid where selfishness is allowed to obtrude and intrude, in defiance of expressed prin- . eiples, then, Sir, public men wh.o are. so afflicted can never expect to bo loaders or to be placed on the Treasury benches of. this colony. I speak mnro in sorrow tlinn in aiijter, because 1 have always admired ability, find I nhmys like to help men nlonp;, and no ninii can over accuse me—not even the member for Kiccnrton—of doing him a personal injury or wiyins a word detrimental to him or his career. "Mr. G. W. Russell: You get your Whips to do it." "Mr. Soddon: The'lion, member misjudges mo entirely. 1 did not do so. . . ." Mr. Russell (referring to tho quotation): When was that? Mr. Fisucr: In 1901. Mr. Russell: I thought you mM'ISM. Misleading and Deluding People. Mr. Fisher said thnt the member for Avon had been unstable and unreliable as

a member of tho party from 189 i right on. lie was astounded that the hun, gentleman should now goabout thocouiHTy and ask Iho peoplo vo allow him to inherit tho manu of Iho man whom )io had attacked in Ins jiriuic, aud ao one of tho surviving descemiauts of a party which he had attacked, and attempted to destroy when it was doing ils best work, lf.it was true, :is Mr. .Russell had said, that this Government had stolen tho proposals of tho Mackenzie- Administration, then, presumably, the might expect to sco tho lion, gentleman voiing lor the present Administration during the session. Tho lion, gentleman was ono of tho party that had gono round this country year in and year out, misleading and deluding people. That evening ho had told tho House that the coming into ollico of the present Administration would lead to unemployment and a reduction in wages. Also, lie had said that the Estimates presided ior an expenditure of JCWO.ODO additional, as compared with last v year. How did ho reconcile Iho two statements? When ho said that the Estimates exceeded, thoso of the previous year by JijoO.OOO, aud charged tho Government with extravagance, did ho forget that these were tho Estimates which ho and his colleagues had prepared? Mr. Eusscll: HaVo you 6lolen our Estimates, too? Mr. Fisher said thnt there- were certain machinery elements which must bo carried on whatever Government was in power. Tho hon. gentleman must know , that when they came into power they found tho Estimates already printed. Ecforring to Mr. Eussclls objection to the Ministry on tho ground that tho wrong member held tho portfolio of AttomeyGonerul, ho asked was it not a recommendation to ths Government that they hiul two men fit for the position, especially when tho Mackenzie Government w«» not able to find one? The Best for Years, Tho Budgot was th* best for yearn. There was an absence of the imaginative statements, those wild, incomprehensible theories which woro never intended to be carried out, with which Budgets of past years had been so thickly t-trown. In this Budget there wero new ideas, and principles which he admitted emanated from tho late Government, and which ho admitted wero not carried out by tho lato Government. The graduated tax, about which Mt. Eussell and tho member for Chrietchurch North had complained would apply to 871 people/and on very liberal terms from the tax collector's point of viow. Who had been the friend of tho monopolist so far? Was it not a fact that £20,000 had been paid by x tho Liberal Government to tho Union Company l'or a service to America, and that tho company wero carrying Australian produce for that subsidy? An lion, member: I hopo that wilrbe stopped. Ilr. Fisher; This Ministry has stopped it. Ho added that the subsidy was to be spent for tho benefit of New Zealond producers. All over the country vested interests had been protected for years past, and members of the other sido were conscious as to what would l>o tho fate- of monopolists now. The Government party wero going to lay tho whip over the Hanks of tho monopolists unsparingly, and certain monopolies which had been sheltered wero anxious as to their fato in tho future

Under-paid Employees, Speaking of unemployment-* eubjeel which Mr. Eusscll had mentioned—ho said that tho Government we're not going to follow the policy of the laßt Government. Mr. Russell, in his capacity as Minister in oharge of tho Printing Office, had signed a schedule of wages by which girls with 2G yeais of service were to ro> ceivo £% a year, while other girls with four years' service .in tho Government Buildings wero getting ■ more. than. .£2OO a year. An hon. member: Did ho do thatP ■ Mr. Fisher: To?, in ttio short time that ho was in office he did that. And, as'a inastcr. printer he. lml .knowledge, of, the trado, and the conditions.' The GovV ornnient, said Mr. Fisher, would improvo the lot of the underpaid employee, and the day of political patronage and political touting wou|d soon bo past in this country. Tho origin of.tho Canadian'.system of keeping the State oewmts was in 1905, when the member ftff Lyttelton brought it forward. And ho wasn't a supporter'of tho Government then. Mr. Laureuson: Oh, yes, 1 was. Mr. Fisher: "\Voll, the leader of the party did not think so. Mr. Russell had also declared that the new Government was extravagant, by reference to tho Estimates. But did he not know that Oho Esti mates were those of tho kto Govefnlno'nt, with a very few alterations. Parliament Buildings.

Yet the Ward Government had spent .£14,430 on alterations to the old Government House, ■.£20,122 on alterations to tlio old Parliament Buildings, ,£52,000 on a new Government House, and £I2U on alterations to the grounds preparing for the. erection of new buildings before a brick had been laid. If Plain's contract \had been allowed to go through, it ought to have been possible to build a suitable building for Parliament for tlio 4:93,798 which had already been frittered away for no result. Th'o Hutt railway scheme had alto bcon an extravagance. It had cost ,€330,000 to build, and it had shortened the journey to the Hutt by two minutes. Ho defended the Government's proposals for Legislative Council reform, a re-form for which tho country was crying aloud. Now the members of'the Liberal party professed to bo dissatisfied with the graduated land tax. Tho member for Cnristchurch North 6aid it was not sufficiently large, but why had tlio Liberal party not put it into effect years ago. On the other hand Mr. ■Russell said the graduated land tax was a fraud anyway; yet he was a member of an Administration which put it into their Governor's Speech only a few months ago. Who is to'Blamo? There was ncod for tariff reciprocity and .negotiations were actually openod by tho late. Minister. If the member for Lyttellon had paid his attention to , tho file instead of careering round tho country he might have done something. Mr. Eil had made a statement to Uio press that lie regretted the Government 1 - wero not going to bring down a tariff ineasuro this session because people were payiup; heavily through the Customs for articles of common necessity Mr. Ell; Yes. Mr. Fisher: Why should it bo so after you have hcen 20 years in office? Mr. Elh. A very good point; I will reply to you on that. Mr. Fisher declared that tho reason why a.Tariff Bill could not be brought down this session was because tho lato Government did nothing. Thoy had beea hoodwinking manufacturers on tariff matters. He had informed a deputation of ironmasters in Christchurch that notes would bo taken of their representations and' the notes would bo referred to Cabinet, 'Were those taken? ■ Mr. I.aurenwiiiV They wero. Mr. Fisher: Then where arc they? Mr. Xmirenson: Ihc Department should havo them. Mr. Fisher: They oau't produce them. I'll liovj; another ecarcU made, There aro Ftiino filos that can't bo found, and I am trying to get nn this tisick of them. Mr. Laurensou: If you are a man at nil you will namo the files Hint enn't lie found. (Cries of "Order!") Mr. ■ Piflior: Tlic file on which those iiolrs avo. is nuViiig. Mr. 11,-mnn: Wluit are the files missan?? Mr. Fisher: Did I soy files? (Cri&s of protest from Opposition benches.) But von inny wriiwle as much as you please, 'but Ihnse typewritten notes which tho honourable gcntleiiiau from Christchurch said vere there ore. not to be found at present. It- whs tho inaction and apathy of tho party on the opposite side of th'o Hoim>, ho "continued, which had left manufacturers standing whoro they wern Mr.'Ell: What about the tosos on the penple? Mr. Fisher: Who put the taxes on the penph? Wo haven t put tho tases on the peoiiK». A Question of Authorship. Mr. Fisher continued that it was true that the. invalidity scheme' had. been outlined by a previous Administration. Mr, Ml: Quite ri«ht. . Mr.. Fifrhcr said that he did not claim tht! authorship of the Bill any more than ho claimed tlje authorship of the Customs proposals. Tho scheme w.is of Doparodontal authorship. It bad been submitled to Hie hen, g«ntlema,n when h(j assumed cfficei

Mr. Ell: I asked for.it.' _air. -j-ieher: The hoti. gentleman might lw a u weU a3k ' for th <> niooa, and think that because he asked for it lie created If: ' (kroghter.) A good party, ho con™u«l, took up ideas qnite regardless of f.neir .origin. The Government Intended » promote an extension-of the old ago pension to wom<n, an extension cf the pens-on to widows, and a new measure, never drafted before, an Invalidity Bill. IJie_ Government .was determined to do justice to old soldiers who had fought for this country, in the early dftys. (Hear, W.) To-dny throughout the length and preadth of the country ttexe were tottering old men, whose means of earning a livelihood were drifting away from them every day. They were btfnjr committed to homes and charitublo institntions. The Government would increase the military pension, os should have boon done long ago. _ In the Utter part of his speech, which is reported in another column. Mr. Fisher • dealt with reform of the Public Service. The House rose at 11.10 p.m.