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Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1514, 9 August 1912, Page 6

object, which was to make it apprar that the Government were unfriendly lo the measure. What had the Slaekenzic Government done about tho question? Thoy had sot out their policy at. greater length than any Government, but they had not made any rel'erenco to the licensing question. , Sir. Hanan: We didn't shuffle with it like what you're doing. (Laughter.) His own view about the Bill, said Sir. Guthrie, was that the reference to Ihe local opt ion poll should be deleted. He was not-in favour of the local option poll at all. and certainly not in favour of a reduction of the IliToe-fii'ths majority on this issue. He had no hope of gelling an amendment to this effect carried, and he would not move it. He would not support the Bill. Sir. J. ROBEIITSOX (Otaki) said he would support the Bill. He declared, however, that any majority such as a three-fifths or 55 per cent was a departure from the democratic principle, that all issues ought to be decided by a bare majority. Where They Differed. Mr. C. E. STATHASI (Dunedin Central) said that ho supposed all members were anxious to eradicate drunkenness, but they differed as to how this happy ideal should be brought about. Ho was' in favour of- the three-fifths majority, believing that all drastic reforms should be earned by a reasonably substantial majority. He did not attach any weight to tho argument that all questions should bo decided by a bare majority. Presently a bare majority might dceido whether people, could smoke or not, or what church people should attend. Sir. K. 3PCALLU3I (Wairau) said he would oppose the Bill on the ground that he did not think the vote on the Dominion issue should never have been submitted to the people. He would have liked the Government to take up the Bill. Ho admitted the need for licensing reform, but ho did not think national prohibition would ever bo tolerated. He would not have so much objection to national nolicense as an issue.. He blamed the temperance party for the confusion which delayed licensing reforms that were needed. On Tender Consciences; Sir. L. SC. .'ISITT- (Christchurch North) said that members professing to discuss the Bill had left the Bill alone, and raised every conceivable side-issue. Ho sketched the history of the No-License movement, and showed what the'effect of the 50 per cent, handicap was. Tt was far too large a handicap to bo justified by the argument as to permanency. Surely the 53-45 handicap was quite sufficient to ensure reasonable permanency. ]f a poll were to be taken on State control of tho traffic ho would not suggest that there should be a handicap to either sido of 50 per cent. He could not be so false to tho principles of democracy. The .temperance party were getting' tired of tho men with too tender consciences who could vote for a reduction of the'majority on one issue and not on the other. He had more respect for the man who said straight out, "I support (he : threefifths." Tho party had practically -madeup its .mind to- have' -no more of these men with analytical minds' and tender consciences. '•'"•••

Opponents of .'the Bill, ' Mr.' T. H.' SMlTH(Waitaki) said that members supporting ■the-'Bill. l had beori talking as if there .were only : two:'parties to lio, considered—tho No-Licenso peoplb and the Trade. Thoy took no account of the modorates. ■ Mr. A. Harris: They are the people supporting the Bill. Mr. Smith: I'm a moderate, and I'm not going to support the Bill. Ho continued that ho had doubts as to whetlior tho Bill provided within itself for the machinery to put the provisions of it into offech • ■• ;. Mr. H. M. CAMPBELL (Hawlco's' Bay) said that the Bill did not go far enough in the right direction. What was needed was the abolition of tied houses and tho regulation of the traffic to ensure the sale of good liquor. He believed in tho threefifths majority, and ho would oppose the Bill. Mr. A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Central) said the measure was a temporary expedient to secure an end. Tho me'asnro was too drastic to be brought down bv a private member, involving as it would questions of revenue. He objected also to the displaying of a chart in tho lobby of the House showing what the voting on the liquor question had been. If tho lobby of the House was to Ijs used as an advertising medium, he was willing to pay ,£IOOO a year for the privilege of using it. The Government could get some revenue from it. The Essential Thing, Mr. ,1. G. COATES (Kaipnra) said ho had given distinct and clear pledges on tho licensing question. He had told his electors that ho would support tho threefifths majority. On such an important matter stability was the essential thing, and a good deal of stability too. He believed in State control ns tho only method by which the sale of liquor could be properly regulated. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said ho was an anti-Prohibitionist for the same reason that ho was an anti-militarist — as a Britisher he objected to compulsion in even- shapo and form. But people had the right to decide this question as all other questions by a bare, majority) and lie would, when the opportunity offered, move to amend the Bill to allow a bare majority to carry any proposal. Mr. G. WITTY (Piiccarton) accused tho Ministry of weakness in having nothing to say on tho measure. Mr. T. H. DAVEY (Christchurch East) said he had never believed in the local option poll, jWhich often worked inenuitably, and, believing this, ho held that" tho local option proposal ought to bo carried only by a large majority. For this poll he would support only the threefifths majority, but he was pledged to support the 55 per cent majority on tho national issue. He would oppose tho Bill.

Minister for Marine. The Hon. F. J[. B. FISHER (Minister for Marine) said ho had given very emphatic and distinct pledges on the liquor question to his constituents, and he would in discharge of those pledges support the Bill. Replying to the accusation that tho Government had failed in their dutv in that they had not given tho House a lead on the Bill, he said that argument previously had been that when private members' Bills were under consideration, tho Government ought to stand off the grass. Mr. Payne: Hear, heav. Mr. Fisher asked whether the member for Christchurch North wished to have the House divided into parties on the licensing question. Mr. lsitt: Rather: An Hon. Member: He wouldn't care. Mr. Fisher then asked why the member for Christchurch North associated himself with two gentlemen interested in the trade when he wanted to secure advantages for his party. Mr. Vigor Brown: Who are they? Mr. Fisher: I think, after hearing the interjection, that there is not much doubt as to who one of them is. Tie went on to discuss the merits of the liquor question, expressing tho belief that prohibition would be good for the community. He.was not a. teetotaller, but ho had always voted prohibition. Ho had once believed in stability and tho three-fifths majority, but he had recognised that it was impossible to win the battle against those odds, and ho had abandoned the stability ideal. Ho congratuated the member for'Clutha on having introduced tho Bill, and he would have much pleasure in supporting it. Mr. H. ATMORE (Nelson) said he was "a three-fifths man by conviction," being satisfied that no smaller majority would suffice for stability on this special question, which could not be approached in cold blood. He believed that tho question must be finally settled bv some form of State control of the traffic. He was not Socialistic, but if there was one trade in which private profit was immoral it was the liquor trade. "Almost Hounded Down." Mr. J. VIGOR BROWN (Napier) said he felt diffident about speaking oh the question, because people said he was connected with the trade. (Laughter.) Headmitted that he, with another man, had an interest in a small brewery, and he wai almost hounded down in < onsequenee. The property of many people was involved in this question. When a squatter's land was taken by the Government, llifc squatter was paid fair vnluo for it. Whv, then, should the property of other people bo taken away from thcin on the vote of one man win might be a fool? He stated that tho lied-hoiise system did not wr,vk for svil, but rather tho. reverie, Mort of. the cheap syii'it that wo: told iru, in,

fact:, Fold ill frco houses. There vas no monopoly, ns was alleged, and lie ciid not want to" make it so for his part. Ho would bo in favour of doing away with, nil restriction of tlie number cf licenses, and of giving licenses to everybody who wanted one, provided always that the licensees should be required to tenduct their houses properly. . State or Municipal Control. Mr. A. 31. 31YEKS (Auckland East) said that he did not propose to address himself to the question of whether Ihe majority required should be llirce-iiflhs or 53 per cent., but lo several remarks made bv other members. He commended members for the extremely temperate language in which Ihey had express-id themselves on this most controversial question. He mado no apology for speaking on the question, because lie was a niember of the trade. When lie stood for Parliament he did not stand as a brewer, but as an elector of this country. He had declared himself a supporter of (lie threelifths majority, and his trade need not influence his'judgment on questions before the House. . Ho regretted to hear from the member for Christcliurch North that the Prohibition party were aiming for political power in tins issue, irrespective of the other gieat national issues coming before the Home. He agreed that there ought to Im> some method of inspection to ensure that all the liquor was of the very best quality. This would 1)0 welcomed by the trade, and the trade in Auckland would lie willing lo defrav the cost of any such inspection. He regretted that tho Prune 3finistor had not given a lead on tho Bill. L , The Prime Minister: Do you want its to make this a Government measure? Sir. Slyers: I should prefer it. I think it would' bo very desirable. The Prime Slinister: I am glad to havevonr opinion. Sir. Slyers asked that at'the next local option poll the people should have an opportunity of voting on a proposal to establish State or municipal control. This might seem strange coming from a man interested in the trade; He and others had entered upon the trade believing it was a. legal trade, and if tho people now did not want to have it carried on under the present constitution, then.it was time they should have a chnneo of saying so. Sir! Jsitt: SVitliout compensation? _ Sir. Slyers: "Without compensation, provided "a sufficient reasonable number of years of grace be allowed before the law' comes into force." Ho also reminded the member for Christchnrcli North that only about 2.5 per cent, of the people who'voted,Prohibition were in truth Prohibitionists.

The Mover in Reply. Mr. A. S. MALCOLM (Clutlm), in replying, admitted that he felt very deeply on the question dealt with in tho Bill. In presenting this Bill he did not desire to make any attack on property. But, although a good deal had. been said about the loss of ■■property that, .would result from the abolition of licenses, nothing had benn said in ' the debate about the hardship and ■•• misery inflicted on ma'ny people—particularly women and children—by - the existences of tho licensed trade.- Miv Malcolm'justified the .threat to-form:a party to advance licensing reform; on: tho score that, licensing reform was tho most'iirgenfc' political 'question oi the day. The abolition of licenses would do more to advance prosperity than other measures would do in a score of years. As' to the members' who were prepared to support a reduced majority on one'issue, but not on the other, they should support tho Bill. They had pledged themselves- to support some change in tho licensing law. II tho Bill passed its sccnod reading members would have, an opportunity of amending it in committee. He would not approve any amendment,, but he had no more, authority ' tlian any other member .of the House. A : member pledged to .vote for a reduced majority on one issuo would deliberately break not only the spirit, but the letter, of his pledge if he opposed the second reading of the Bill. The member for Dunedin Central had said that if the bare majority were applied in licensing polls, the, drinking of tea might also be forbidden. A crusado of this kind would be more hopeless than that of Bon Quixote. Parliament was humbugging the people in telling them that the licensing question was submitted to themselves, and at the same timo imposing such a tremendous handicap as now obtained. .Ho appealed to. the British sense of fair play in members. It was not fair play that people who had been educated on this question until they understood it as well as any member of tho House, should bo required to poll six votes out of every ten in order to wipe out the liquor trade. Even if the 55 per cent, majority were adopted, n majority of COO votes would be required to carry a proposal where 0000 votes wero cast. To reverse this decision 1200 voters would have to change their minds. This should amply ensure stability. To reject the Bill at this stage would be to flout public opinion.

The Division, The motion for the second reading was defeated by 42 votes to 32. The following is the division list:— Ayes (32): Anderson, Bell, Buddo, Buxton, Clark, Craigie, Ell, Escott, Fisher, Hanan, Harris, Hindmarsh, Hine, Lsitt, Lang, Lauvenson, Lee, Malcolm, Marnier, A. K. Newman, Ngata, Nosworthy, Okey, Payne, Pearcc, Poland, liobertson, Sykcs, G. M. Thompson, Veitch, Wilson, Young. Noes (42): Atmoro, J. Bollard, R. Bollard, Bradney,- Brown, Buchanan, Buick, Campbell, Carroll, Coates, Colvin, Davey, Dickie, Dickscn, Forbes, Fvascr, Glover, Guthrie, Herdman, Herries, Hunter, M'Callum, Mac Donald, R. M'lCcnzie, ■Myers, E. Newman, , Paratai, Pomare, Reed, R. H. Rhodes, T. W. Ehodes, Enssell, Scott, Seddon, Sidev, F. H. Smith, E. W. Smith, Statham, J. C. Thompson, Ward, Wilford, Witty. The Hon. W. F. Massey (aye) and tho Hon. James Allen (no) were paired. Tho Hon. T. Mackenzie, tho Hon. J. A. Millar, and Dr; Te Eaugihiroa'wer© absent, and they, with the Speaker, were the only members not accounted for in the division. Tho'House roso at'll.lo p.m.