HOME RULE BILL IN COMMONS.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1499, 23 July 1912, Page 8

HOME RULE BILL IN COMMONS.

MAJORITY OF 102 IN FIRST DIVISION. . PROPOSED-TO EXCLUDB FOUR ULSTER COUNTIES. 'The House of Commons on June II commenced tli« consideration of the Home Kule Hill iji Committee As n preliminary Air. G. J. Sandys (U., Wells) moved: "Thnt it bo an instruction- to the committee on the Bill that they have power to divide the Bill into two Hills, the first dealing with the constitution and powers of the Irish PurPnineut, and (he second doaltng with the alteration in the constitution of the Parliament of the United Kingdom." The division on the instruction was as follows:— For Iho instruction IS! Against list; Government majority ... 102 'The announcement of the figures was received with loud .Ministerial and Nationalist cheers. Amendments Out of Order. Nino further instructions were on the Order Paper (one. of them iji favour of a iieferemlum), but tho whole of these wero ruled out of order by the Speaker. The House then went into Committee, and .Mr. Whitley took the chair. Clause 1 cf the Bill is in tho following terms:—

"On and after the appointed day there shall bo in Ireland an Irish-Parliament consisting of his Majesty the King and two Houses, 1 namely, tho Irish Senate and tho Irish House of Commons.- Notwithstanding the. establishment of tho Irish Parliament or anything contained in this Act, the supremo power and authority of tho Parliament of .the United Kingdom shall remain unaffected and undiminished over all persons, ihatter.s and things within his.Majesty's dominions." Sir Edward Carson (I*., Dublin University) moved ns an ; amendment tho omission of the words "on and after the appointed day" with -which the clause begins. His object, he said, was to enable the date of tho Act's coming into operation to bo discussed. Mr. Asquitli pointed out that Clause -12 of the Bill provided that "The Irish Parliament, shall bo summoned to meet on tho First Tuesday in September, 1913." He opposed tho amendment. Lord Kobert Cecil (U., Hitchin) drew attention to the effect of the Parliament Act on the Bill, and argued that, the electors who had supported the Parliament Act had no intention that it should bo used by tho Government as a weapon of tyrannv. Sir Frederick■■ Banbury (loudly): Hear, hear. (Ministerial laughter.) Lord Kobert Cecil, turning to Sir Frederick 'Banbury with some anger,' said he must ask his horn friend to treat the matter seriously. (Keaeivod Ministerial laughter.)- ■■- '■' '"

, Issue Shirked at By-Elections. . Mi-.- Lees-Stnitli (L.i'Northampton') said the noble lord had declared that it would be nii-aci of tyranny and a constitutional, outrage to 'pass the Bill without refer.- ■ rinjfta the judgment of the people. (Opposition cheers.) Supposing the Government accepted the invitation to'have another general election, would the result be any more decisive than that of the last general election (Opposition cries of "Try it.") Hon. members opposite knew that they would not fight the election on Home Kiilc at nil. (Ministerial cheers.) The way they contested the by-elections— Hythe, for that. (Cheers.) The fact was that the Opposi-tion-had no real desire to refer this question to 'the' judgment' of the people at all.- (Cheers.) ■■■'•'" ■ Mr. MacCall'um Scott (L., Bri'dgeton, Glasgow) said (hat Sir Edward Carson had iiot been able to say anything in support of his amendment because there was nothing to be said for it. Those behind liim had followed his example with greater prolixity and less point. Whenthe right lion, gentleman threw up his brief it was not likely .that his .junior^'.would,- do bettar with it.' If Ulysses could not bffnd the bow tliero was little hope for the disappointed suitors. (Laughter.) Captain Craig- (U., East Down) said tint if Mr. MacCallum Scott's speech represented tho way in which Unionists were going to be taunted in these debates, Ministerialists would get as good as they gave. After:sonic remarks by Mr. Campbell (U., Dublin University) and Lord Tullibardine (U., Perthshire), each of whom was called to order two or three times for wandering from the question, Mr. Asquith asked tho House to be content with the assurance that an opportunity should be given, probably on clause 42, for discussing the actual date on which the Irish Parliament should be brought into-existence. Sir Edward' Carson's amendment was thereupon withdrawn.

THE ULSTER PROBLEM. PROPOSAL TO EXCLUDE POUR NORTH-EASTERN" COUNTIES. Mr. Agar-Robortes (L., St. Austell, Cornwall) proposed to exclude from the provisions of the Act the counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, and Londonderry. It might be said that' by supporting this proposal the Ulster members would be deserting their fellow-Protes-tants in the South, but lis did not think it was a charge that could ho substantiated. The people of the north believed that the change proposed by the Bill would endanger their lives property. Their animosity had not been quietened by the safeguards' of the Bill. . In his opinion they could not reconcile these two nations by putting ono in subjection to the other. (Opposition cheers.) He understood that orange bitters would mix with sherry, but he had never heard they would mix with Irish whisky. ("Oh" and laughter.) By (die acceptance of this amendment "he thought ono of the chief dangers of civil war might bo removed.

Business and Religion in Belfast. Mr. Birrell (Chief Secretary for Ireland) said that it was not the intention of the Government to invite tho House to accept the amendment. It would require a great deal of eloquence from Ulster herself to persuade them that Ulster was anxious to cut herself off from the rest of Ireland. It was m delusion to suppose that the shrewd inhabitants of that prosperous province were entirely devoid of interest in any question of religion. They were very deenly involved in the general prosperity of Ireland, and there were many bankers and commerciol firms who had large interests in the south and West-of the country. The working capital for many industrial enterprises in Belfast and the neighbourhood was derived to no inconsiderable extent from the savings of the people of other provinces. The total population of the four counties was just over a million, and of this some 723,000 were Protestants'. Ho was more and more persuaded, however, that the. distinction between the Roman Catholic form of religion and Presbyterianism and. the Protestant Episcopalian Church was not of such a character that they must regard it as a final lino of partition between the people. He thought it quite possible for neoplo who entertained the strongest difference'- of opinion in religion to be closely and 1 intimately associated with politics and agricultural and commercial pursuits. His experience in recent years, in fact, had shown him that this was the case. Ho believed that tho amendment was moved in the greatest good faith, .but it wa.s one -which tho Government could not accept.

Mr. Bonar Law (Leader of the Opposition) said that he could assure Mr. Birrell that upon this question all ■ other things in Ulster sank into insignificance before the hostilitv to Home. Rule Ha agreed that until Home Rulo-'sns brought ttorward again the bitterness in Ireland was dying down, but the. Bill was arousing fresh feeling. If Ireland made a claim for separate treatment, he 'continued, Ulster had a.better right to claim consideration in relation to the rest of the cbilntry. The position of Ulster was the real fact in the Home Bnle "controversy, and no one who was neqnaintorl with the feeling and temper of the Ulster people could for u moment doubl Hint they would use every means in their power to prevent being driven with anything short of force out. of the union to which they adhered and compelled to - >ccept a Government thev detested. The attitude of the Opposition was ' >hi»\ He wns'going to vol* in favour of the amendment, and he was going to do «n not because he said that it would take a\v:iv his-opposition |to Home TCuh'. (Irish cheers.) He believed that Honie Hule ,ivaa jumeceasajy t .an<i-.that-it jpwldVb^

bad and disastrous for the "United Kingdom as a whole, and bad for Ireland. They wore opposed root and branch to the whole Hill, and they were discussing it in Committee simply on the ground that they would support any amendment which would make the Bill less bad than it was without amendment. Air. J!. C. Alunro-l'Vrgu'-on, (L., I.cith Burghs) admitted the difficulty of the Ulster question 1 . He believed Hint Ulster eventually would throw in her kit with the rest of Ireland—(Opposition cries of "Never!")—but in (lie meantime he thought tho offer contained in this amendment should hi- made to Ulster, and ho would support the proposal. Lord Hugh Cecil in the Role of Rebel. Lord Hugh Cecil (U„ Oxford Vuiversitv) s:ml that the omendmeiit would save the Bill if passed from lending to nit immediate and violent crisis. His leaders werein n (position of responsibility, and naturally hesitated to declare that they were in'favour of rebellion, but ho was in a position of less responsibility, and he did not hesitate to say that ha thought Ulster perfectly Tight in resisting, that he hoped she would resist, and so far as his small influence extruded ho would do his best to help her to resist. .Air. D. V. Pirie (L., North Aberdeen) said thnt on the second reading debate the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, tho First Lord of the Admiralty, and the At-torney-General had referred to the possible intentions of the Government in regard to Ulster. Now, however, the Government was observing a wilful reticence. As long as they remained so they would loss his vote. (Opposition cheers.) ne had said on tho second reading, and he said again, that Ulster ought to be given a chanco of standing out of the Bill.

MR. ASQUITH. TWITS THE ULSTER MEMBERS ON 'THEIR SILENCE. Mr. Asquith said he did not know on what the charge cf excessive reticence was based. In principle and in detail Iho matter had been discussed nt length on tho second reading of the Bill, and neither he nor his colleagues had shown, any unwillingness to grapple with the question. Ho had heard with interest the Leader of the Opposition's announcement that he would vote for the amendment. What was the view of the representatives of Ulster, for the moment conspicuous by their absence. (Cries of "No.") There were one or two Ulster representatives lurking on the Opposition side. Did they approve of tho advice of the Leader of the Opposition? It was said that it was impossible to trust the Protestants of Ireland to the tender mercies of an Irish Parliament, that if it was done th© Protestants would be, oppressed from the (mint of view of religion, of social equality, of civil and political and industrial right. That was the basis to a very larsre extent of the whole argument against Home Rule. What would bo tho effect of the amendment?. Accepting the premises, it would exclude' just that body of the Protestant minority which was best able' to protectitsclf, and leave; without any kind of 'refuse or protection' not only the scattered Protestant minority'.in the south' and-west,, but inthe • oth'er-.'rind' remaining comities of Hie province of Ulster itself. (Ministerial' and Nationalist cheers.) Was there ever such a self-stultifying amendment? It was not to be wondered attbat.it had not been' moved by any Unionist representative of Ulster. (Ministerial cheers.)

Attitude of the Government, As to tho Government's position in the matter, Mr. Asquith said, it was perfectly plain. On the second reading he and his colleagues had said that they were most anxious to secure with the Bill the most adequate and complete safeguards against the possibility either of religious or political persecution. They had said that any practical suggestion from any quarter which would' supplement and innkb more effective what the Government thought wore the adequate safeguards in the Bill would receive the utmost sympathy and consideration. There was no step in that direction which the Government were not perfectly ready to attcmnt. The amendment.proceeded from the false assumption that it was possible to split Ireland into park.., That was no more nossible than the splitting of England or Scotland info narts. (Ministerial'cheers.) "I adhere to the opinion," Mr. Asquith concluded, "that you have in Ireland a eroater fundamental unit}-—(Opposition laughter)— yes, a- greater fundnment.il unity of race, of temperament, of tradition, an essential communion, of roco and temperament. I agree that, unlianpily, dissensions have been rampant, largely because of religion. They are dissensions which Ido not believe'go down to the foundations of the 'national life. The more Irishmen arc encouraged and empowered to co-operate in the great work of governinpr their own country, the more convinced nan T that these differences will disappear in that common sense of fundam»nfol and ovrnow-sriii" unity v;h'"h T believe tn be the central fact* in Irish national life." (Ministerial cheers.) . At eleven o'clock the debate was adjourned, and the House rose.