DEFENCE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1486, 8 July 1912, Page 11

DEFENCE.

THE ANNUAL REPORT DISCUSSED. •"CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS." The Houso of Representatives spent more than an hour on Friday in discussing the Defence Report, which was laid on the tablo by the Hon. A.-M. Myers. Mr. Payno (Grey Lynn) said it ivas time- tho whole working of the Defence Act should be reviewed. It was contrary to all British tradition, to introduce compulsion in the matter of military service. Britain had a volunteer army and a volunteer Navy, and now to introduce a system of conscription was to mako a blot on the escutcheon of one of tlio greatest Empires tho. world had over seen Many people wero led away with such statements as: "If this country is worth living, in, it is worth fighting for." (Hear, hear! from all benches.) As a matter of fact,' tho people who said that had something to fight for, but they would not fight. They left that to tho labouring classes, who had little enough to fight for. He had had his share of volunteer service, but he knew from his experience that shooting was a department of training that was very much neglected. ■ Ho would like to be assured that more attention was being paid to shooting under the now defence scheme. It would be possiblo to train in New Zealand a citizen army of sharpshooters, and it would bo possible to do this by laying out rifle ranges, giving freo ammunition, and giving free railway passes. Ho would like, also, to see a system-of coast defence by mines'and long-range guns, but he was satisfied that the task of invading New Zealand was much too big to be undertaken by any Power. He believed that the yellow peril was altogether a bogey. The introduction of compulsion was casting a stigma on tho colonial youth; it was equivalent to saying openly to all the world that they would not tight until they wore compelled. If the Act were not repealed; he would suggest that peoplo -with incomes of over .fioUO a year should give the same sefvice as the youths within tho scope of tho Act. Mr. Wilford on Patriots.

Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt) protested as a young; Now Zealnnder against the lino of argument followed by Mr. Payne. If tlie latter had a better knowledgo of the world politics and a wider horizon ho' would have taken a totally different point of view. ■ ■ , Mr. Payno: Certainly not. Mr.. Wilford said that Mr. Payne stood alono in the House, so far as his opinions about defence were concerned, and compared those who refused to serve to patriots who left their country for their country's good. (Laughter.) After touching upon tho international situation, tho member, for-Hutt, declared, amidst applause, that tho man who did not think enough of his country to bo ready to fight for it had better get out of it. Ho insisted that compulsory training was essential to" a proper defence preparation. Compulsory training was necessary, mid it was good for the young people. He was prepared to defend tho system at any time and upon any platform. (Applause.)^

Mr. Payne said that ho had beoa misrepresented. Ho considered that it would bo easy to establish a better system of defence draining than now obtained without bringing in tho element ,of compulsion. Showy Uniforms Criticised. Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh (Wellington South) said that it was easy to make such a speech as the member for Hurt had made. It was all very well to talk cheap, patriotism,' but how had the men who fought and bled in tho Maori wars been treated ? A member: Shamefully! Mr. Hindmarsh concurred. Ho went on to denounce showy uniforms, and urged that nn amendment to the Act should be passed, providing that fines should be imposed on parents and guardians, and not on lads. Mr. Hindmarsh. also objected that too much had been spent upon tho defence scheme. Only the other day ho had met a man who carried "a dangling sword." •Mr.' L. M. Isitt (Christchurch. North) •advoCat»d the embodiment in tho Defence 'Act 1 of a conscience clause, permitting objectors to perform civil duties in lieu of military training. A small fleet of aeroplanes, to guard out coasts, Mr. Isitt declared, would do more to ensure tho safety of this country than all the Territorials. Mr. J. Eobertson (Otaki) denied that opponents of the Defence Act were necessarily unpatriotic. The question was whether the Defence Act'provided the most efficient system possible, and whether it oporated fairly towards all sections of tho community. He was opposed to tho present Act because it was undemocratic, and had other shortcomings. Any forco that came to attack New Zealand would easily seize . tho ports, and tho Territorials would retire into the interior as the Turkish troops did at Tripoli, It was one defect of the local Act that those who most needed physical training did not get it.. Speech by tho Premier. The Hon. T. Mackenzie (Prime Minister) twitted Mr. Jas. Allen with saying nothing on behalf of the defence system. Mr. Allen: I am not going to play your gamo.

The Primo Minister said that he had not known Hint the debate, on defence

was to come _ on, "Suspicion always haunts tho guilty mind," remarked tho I Premier. (Opposition laughter.) He I went on to deliver a homily on the/ advantages of tho defence training and tho imminence of the Asiatic menace. Ho admitted that the local Act needed somo modifications, notably iu regard to imprisonment. Conscientious objectors, said the Prime Minister', could, be analysed into two classes. Ono class consisted of those who wished to shirk their share in preparing to defend their country. Mr. Allen: I don't call'that conscientious. Mr. Mackenzie: "I have said that there are two classes." Ho continued that lie had received communications from honest objectors statin? that they were willin? to perform other duties in lieu of military service. Mr. Mackenzio displayed a number of placards which ho had received from anti-militarists. Ono ho had altered so that it read:—"Not preparing for war is preparing for hell anddesolation." Mr. Masseyi Striko out the "H." (Laughter.) Mr. Mackenzie produced another placard winch informed workers that their sons were being trained to shoot them down. "Better," addod the Prime Minister jocularly, "if they were trained to shoot the Opposition." An ODpositionist: Better for you! The Primo Minister said that the statement that defence had cost more than education last year was wido of tho mark. Defence last year cost .£400,000, and education over a million. Only ten vcssols like the Titanic, tho Prime Minister remarked in conclusion, would be required to carry an army of thirty thousand men .lo New Zealand, and an army of that 6izs„ unless prenarations wore made to meet it, could walk from one end of the country to the other. The Minister for Defence, The Minister for Defence (tho Hon. A. M. Myers) said it was quite true that'the Prime Minister did not know that tho report/was coming on. Mr. Allen: It was known here.

Tho Minister replied that he had informed an Opposition member, who was much interested in tho subject, that the report was ready for presentation. Continuing, Mr. Myers said that he had been in command of a company in whicli both Mr. Payne and Mr. Hinris wero members, and he was sure Hint if occasion arose Mr. Payne would bo among the first to take up a rifle in the defence of the Dominion. A mob was always at the mercy of a disciplined army, and to him it was incomprehensible that any sane person should object to a system of compulsory training, - which could not possible cause any harm, and; would certainly do incalculable good iii disciplining the youth of the Dominion.' There was much' misconception regarding the cost of the scheme, but a liberal estimate showed that the ccst diniing the first three years would not exceed the original estimate of .£1,200,000 given by Sir Joseph Ward in explaining the..scheme. Tho cost in 1910-11 was .£205,000. in 1911-12 it was .£IOI,OOO, and it was estimated, that in the present year tho expenditure would not exceed .£150,000. including the cost of equipment ordered in Kngla.nd, but not delivered.

The report.was adopted, and the discussion terminated at 1.5 p.m.