THE DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1485, 6 July 1912, Page 6

THE DEBATE.

MR. C. PARATA. ON BEHALF OP THE MAORI. Tho debate'on the no-confidence motion was continued in the House of Jteprcsontatives .shortly after i o'clock yesterday afternoon/ ■■ - Mr. C. Parnta (Southern Maori) paid a tribute' to the lato Sir John Logan Campbell as' a public benefactor, and in particular a • benefactor of the Maori race. Mr. Parate spoke approvingly of dofeneo training. If a, man was not prepared to defend his country, ho said, the country should;; not hold him. As A Maori of this country, ho welcomed the military training system introduced by tlio late Government. Since the inauguration, of the system he had been through one island, and had not' heard .one voice raised against defence training. Tho people who bad crjticised tho Dreadnought gift wero not, inrhis opinion, sincere. He was not surprised that the Liberal Government bad had such a long (enure of office, because its closer settlement policy had been beneficial to the country as ft whole. He, dealt at great length, quoting extensively, from blue books, with the administration of Native land legislation, particularly in regard la the long-standin" Claim of the Ngaitahu people. .' MR. J. CRAIGIE. WIT.T, VOTE WITH. TOE GOYEKN--. ■ MENT. Mr. J. Craigic (Timarn) said lie was not I a bitter party man; he was afraid lie was not a good party man. They bad had on excellent, example during the past few' days of the evils of party government. He did not blame the Opposition or the Ministry for carrying on this party warfare," but lie blamed the wretched parly system. Probably Parliament would do more good if it adopted more the methods of local bodies in ccinducting.their affairs. Ho admitted that Mr. Mas-rev was an able, hard-working man for his parly, but ho likened him lo Sisvphn--. So far, his labours hail brought mi result, and he was not sure Dial." he would ever get his party un~fhe political mountain. Meantime,, while Mr. Massev and his allies were using the lime of the House in this warfare, how was (he country getting on? He ventured it siy thai Ihev were getting tired of the strife of parties.' He could tee no Teason why the br,t men should not control the affairs "f the country, whatever their partv. Jt was very uncertain how the vote wauld go on the question how.being di'cusso:!. He was going to throw in his lot with the Government on this division at least, because nt present they were nearest to his a.spirations and his political creed. But wbnt ho wanted' to see was Parliament rise above party, and serye the people. Hn hoped Parliament would work more trr the peoplo .and less for party.

MR. A. E. GLOVER. . lIE IS NOT JEALOUS. Mr. A. ]•!. CI.OVKTI (Auekl.vid Central) Mid ho did not claim that ho had great possessions in wealth or intellect, hut his lack of these qualifications would ho compensated always by indomitable perseverance and untiring energy to work for the uplifting of the masses of the people of this country. He thought tho administration of the old'age pensions system was harsh. Difficulties were put. in the .way of applicants for pensions, and indignities were thrust upon them which wore not necessary. There were some in tilt; Parliament who were supposed to bo disappointed'and dissatisfied because they had not been offered a. portfolio. He, for his part, was glad thjit his colleague Mr. Arthur Myers attained to his present high position. \ That was tho proper attr'tudo for .-iny public man to take up. Was he jealous because he had not been jffercd a portfolio? (Uproarious laughter from the Opposition benches.) Mr. Glover, continuing after the dinner adjournment, spoke at great length on the subject of old soldiers' claims, contending that' they were entitled In much' more favourable consideration than they had vet received, lie was not prepared, he said, to"say that the- Government would oecup,' the Treasury benches verylong, but. bo intended lo record bis vote for the Government in Ihe approaching division, because he believed that the Jlinislrv intended to do all that it could (o imiolioi-.-ite the lot of veterans. Tf Mr. ilassey attained'lhe Treasury benches

and devoted himslf to tho passage of more humanitarian, legislation than yet figured on the.-ijitatiita ISook, ho .would have no more devoted follower thaii 'the member for Aucklnnd Central. (Applause.) MR. L. M. ISITT. WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CAUCUS. Mr. L. 51. ISITT (Chrislclnireli North) rose to speak shortly after eight o'clock. He said he wished to refer to n matter that affected bis personal nonour. He referred to an editorial statement in the Cbrislch urcb "Press" of July •), regarding tho recent caucus of the Literal party, as follows:~ "When it appeared, however, that. Mr. Millar had the largest following, a small coterie of those present, led by Mr. Isitt, forgot all about their previous pledge, and said -that they would support no Ministry with Mr. Millar in it, and it was at-lhoir dictation that Mr. Mackenzie was elected, and the, stop-gap Ministry was constituted. It is a -Ministry formed upon a veritable three-decker structure of broken pledges." Mr. Isitt silted' that be was invited to the conference bv the then Prime Minister, Joseph-Ward. Immediately on its constitution it was suggested that a resolution should be carried calling upon all present to loyally support the majority vote. The Hon. Jt. M'Kenzie: Thero was another one beforo that. Mr. Isitt: I immediately rose and pointed out to members that .1 should be placed in a false position unless I made a clear and definite explanation. I painted out that there were certain men, none of whom I could possibly support as leader. When the resolution was put I did not vote. It was distinctly understood that I did not vote. I offered to leave the room and tlmt offer was not accepted. I am not ((iiite sure about it, but I think the labour members also made a statement of their position. Mr. Isitt added that when a public man gave hard knocks he must expect Imrd knocks himself. Tf he was not prepared to submit to that sort of thin'j he had no business to be in public life. A man's honour w« just is dear to him when he entered public life as befoTC.

Mr. -Lanrenson: Heir, lienr! r Mr. Tsilt: There is newspaper criticism atat newspaper criticism, but T maintain that this is one of a series of attempts made bv this naper, not to criticise, but t'i absolutely destroy public judgment as to his honour and straightforwardness. Mr.-Lauronson: Hear, hear. Mr. Payne (addressine: the Speaker); With your permission T should like to add a litt'o ti vlmt the lion, member for Christchnrcli North has said. Mr. Mn"-"y: The hon. member has* spoken. Mr. Payne asked if he might speak on the matter raised by Mr. Tsitt. Mr. .Speaker: If you have been -misrepresented. Air. Payne sat dovrn. Sir Joseph \Wv<\ nsked whether ho might make a. nprfmnl explanation without sacrificing his risht to speak. The Spenker repeated his previous ruling that any member was entitled to make a personal exploration. Sir .Toseph Ward said ho had been referred to. Mr. Fmser: Were you misrepresented? Mr. Sneaker: K the reference misrepresented your attitude you arc entitled to clear the matter rip. Mr. Mnssey raided a point of order. Tt wa.s one, he "lid. on which the Speaker had often ruled, namely, that a member who had not sunken in a debate was not entitled to make a personal explanation because he. cmi'd pxnkiin in bis .speech. A member who lmil spoken was entitled to make a personal explanation if he had been misrepresented Mr. Speaker: That is tho rule. Privilege, Tho Hon. ,T. Colvin said that he understood that the lion, member for Christchurch North had Spoken of a breach of privilege by (ho ''Christchurch Press -(Opposition denials and protests) —and that the member for Grey Lynn desired to speak on tho samo subject. Tho Speaker ruled that hon. members could not bo permitted to interrupt tho debate save to, make a personal explanation, and this only if fhey ] la d spoken.

Jlr. Isitt: Am I to understand that I am debarred from speaking? Tho Speaker: Not on tho main question. Tho lion. G. Laurensnn said that ho also had understood that Jlr. Isitt had moved that a breach of privilege had been committed. An attack hail been niado on himself (the Jlinister) by tho same paper. He would mora that a breach of privilego had bceu committed in tho latter capo.

I Jlr. F. J[. B. Fisher raised a point of order, asking whether a member was entitled to interrupt a no-confideuc-o debate bj o nuortioa of prlyiliHe.

The Speaker ruled Mint the debate could not l>o interrupted. Mr. Laurenson slid Unit it luirl boon brought under liis notice that a gross attack hud been made on him in this paper. "1 want tu got; an opportunity, of supporting my friend (ho mvmb.-r ' for Cliristchureli North," he -aid, "who Ims been cruelly slandered by this paper." Mr. Jas. Allen pointed out that tile Minister was making a speech.

Mr. Laurenson asked members to support the member for C'liii-tchurch North and himself in clearing (heir characters. (Cries of "Order.") Mr. Kit I' and himself. Mr. Laurenson added, hud been attacked in a cvuet and -barbarous wav. Mr. Speaker remarked that {lie lion, member could bring Hie matter up en Ihe next silting day or at the earliest opportunity. Hr. Laurenson :All Hint I want is an opportunity to clear myself. Mr. Speaker: That, will be the lion, member's opportunity. Mr. Laurenson complained that th» thing'would, be four days old before he could take action. . Mr.'Speaker concurred station thai-four da.ys later would be the hon. member's opportunity. Ho' added, however, that if the debate that evening was adjourned before half-past twelve the question of privilege could-be,raised then. Mr. Payne claimed that ho had been misrepresented in the article, as he had been referred to as a pledge-breaker, and as.a member of a coterie led by Mr. Isitt. Those, statements were incorrect, ns the Labour members had previously stated in the Itouse thnt they would not support a Ministry including' Mr. Millar. Mr.. Payno expressed a hope that the press would dissociate the term pledge-breaker from his name.

HON TE- RANGIHIROA. THE NATIVE LAND QUESTION. Tho Hon. Dr.- Te liangihiroa said lie would not allow the. occasion to pass without giving somo expression to tfie faith that was in him. lie congratulated, tho mover of the Address-in-Kepiy (Mr. 11. M'C'aHnni) on his speech, and on having passed through the election petition trial without a stain on his honour.' The Maori race, as was well known, had always been in favour of defence and offence, and although it was.said that the sterner qualities of the race had deteriorated under the influence of civilisation, the warlike spirit was still inherent. At a meeting of the young Maori party in Auckland a motion' iyas carried to the effect that, the Maoris were prepared to take their share in defence. lie proposed to speak mainly of the section of the Governor's Speech referring to Native lands. It was said that the taihoa policy of Sir •Tames Carroll was responsible for much harm in dealing with.Native lands. G. V. Teaice: Hear: hear!

Mr. To Pangihiroa: An honourable member says "Hoar, hear/' There speaks the mind win knows nothing of custom, who would tread down ancient institutions and bring calamity on/the country. Ho said it was the prudent:, tactful policy followed by, Sir James Carroll that had really averted trouble which might very easily have amounted to bloodshed in some districts. Jn the short period of twenty years, more than one-third .of; tuc lands formerly held by the Natives had been alienated. Suroiy that was '.-'ins last enough; it was going too fast for him as a member of the Native race. lie recognised t.ho need for closer settlement, and the proper people to ■ throw cpen land for settlement were the Government. This land must corae from two sources —the Maori owners, or the owners cf large areas of Enropean land. But now • e thought the, time had come to cry "Hold, enough'." in the matter,of the settlement of Maori lands. He would be in favour of throwing Maori lands open for closer settlement, but for settlement by the Native owners. They were just as much er.titlcd to assistance in settlement as any European. It was surely, time to review the position again.. Yet the cry of the Opposition wis always diverted In the huge areas of Native land lying idle and unproductive. There were 102 Europeans owning over a million, acres. In the name of fair play, he asked the ]Tr.u=e was it right that all this attention should be directed towards Native laud i' r iloser settlement. He was not going lo obslruct closer settlement; he recognised that it must come, and that if the Native people were lo exist as men they must resume the burden of citizenship and become workers on the soil. ■ -.

MR. T. E. Y. SEDDON. IiNJJUSTKIAL TKOUULE -Vl' KEEFTON. Mr. T. E. Y. SEDPON (Wcstlnnd) dealt at some length with the question of the industrial trouble at Reefton. Up till the present the parlies had never met in conference, and there conhkbo no settlement until they did. Tt seemed to him a wroiig tiling that the Labour Department conld not compel the parties to meet -and conciliate. lie thought that the state of l affairs at Reefton justified an amendment-lo the Arbitration Act to provide for such a now condition. Mr. Scddon then reviewed the Governor's Sp-cech generally, approving most of it. Especially he approved the proposal to hove experimental farms established in the South Island, and he wanted one on the West Coast. He reeoghised that there had come a crisis in the history of the Liberal party; There wore rumours that members of the party were ™oiii!; to vote with the Loader of the Opposition, but he did not contemplate such a ston in the House without giving very valid and good reasons for so doing. Yet these men whose names had been mentioned were not making a murmur, and it was suggested that they were going into tho Opposition lobby to destroy the Liberal party. THE HON. T. BUXTON. APPEAL TO THE.COUNTRY. Tho Hon. T. BUXTON said that it had been stated that certain members of tho .patty were going to vote against, the Government in the division. He did not know whether .nnmes should lie mentioned, but names had been mentioned, and certain men were believed to be going over to the Opposition side. Ono name was that of a gentleman whom he respected very much, and whom he/ had been connected with over since ho had come into Parliament—the member for the Bay of Islands. Knowing as he did exactly what look place at the short .session, and what took place when tho caucus was held in Wellington—he had not put the matter to Mr. Peed, but he gave him credit for holding a higher opinion' of what a gentleman ought to do than to act as was. suggested he would. He (Mr. Buxton) had never for a moment doubted that when Mr. Itced took the part he did in the caucus in bringing his influence.to bear on the Premier to allow himself to he nominated, because that was believed to be the only way out of a difficult position—under these circumstances he refused to givo credence to anything of the kind suggested concerning him. He gave his friend, the member for the Bay of Islands, credit for something more worthy. Tho whole question was duly considered and weighed, and nothing was dono hurriedly. How, then, could Mr. Reed go back and vote against a very strongly laid down pledge? In the circumstances the proper thing to do was to go to the country.

Mr. Buxton spoke at length on tho subject of public indebtedness, and contended that a statement of tho national assets emlxxlicd in tli9 public accounts would serve to controvert damaging statements that wero made about the national debt. Ho went on to advocate an incror.se in tho graduated land tax. Mr. Fisher: Why did you not do so in the Inst Parliament? Mr. Uuxton: Wo intend to do that sort of thing now. Mr. Fisher: You supported tlio party that did not do it. Mr. Buxton: Tho party I am supporting havo done <i (treat deal moro for (be country than Iho one to which you belong. Jlr. Fisher: My party lias never been in ollico. Mr. Uuxton said Hint when bo first met. Jlr. Fisher, the. latter was tolling people, on Iho platform and elsewhere, that tho dcmuc.rnlie party led by Jlr. Soddon was too slow, and that a new parlywas going to be started which would do belter. Mr. Fisher: Wo have gol the party hero now. Mr. Uuxton: My friend has interjected and perhaps has pal me oft Ihe track. Jlr. I'i-hev: 1 I bought I might nut yon on the track. You have been off it all the time. Jfr. Hujtoii. .Wording to your idea I may bo a little further off the track I am duno.

Mr. Fisher: Hear, hear! Mr. lillxlon went on to quoto some ullerances of Dr. Xcwmun on the subjeef of advances Id sutllers. Mr. Anderson: When did Dr. Newman sav that? Mr. Huston: In 181)1. -Mr. Anderson: That is prehistoric! -Air. Buxton, continuing to quote from old Hansard, was invited by Mr.- Massey to "quote, the J'rime Minister." ' Mr, Buxton said he was not afraid 10, but ho did not comply with tho request. Mr. Allen presently interrupted tho Minister with the remark: "What are Mr. lluxlon: Advances lo Settlers. Mr. Allen: Well, I will give vou a challenge. Will you name a single man on this side of the House that ever voted against si second reading of the Advance*. Mr. Buxton: I don't say that you did. I am quoting what you said, f don't say how you voted, but if you can make the people of this country believe that you spoke like that and then voted another way -— Mr. Allen: I givo you a challenge. When did.a. man on this side vote against n. second reading? Mr. Buxton: I don't care whether you did. 1 am 'quoting what you said. Mr. Buxton dealt in the latter part of his speech with the question of fostering trade and opening up new markets. Ho was applauded as he concluded. Mr. A. 11. Himlmarsh, tqso at 11.45 p.m. to move the adjournment of tho debate. Mr. Isitt: I second that. The Speaker then put the question of adjournment at 11.50 p.m. The Opposition challenged a division and the motion was defeated by 39 votes to 33.