PRIVILEGE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1372, 24 February 1912, Page 8

PRIVILEGE.

QUESTION BY THE PREMIER. THE SPEAKER SATS THEKE IS NO BREACH. , When, the House resumed at 7.30 p.m., Sir Joseph WARD asked whether a breach of privilege had not been committed in the laying of an anonymous letter upon the table of the House. Mr. Speaker asked for the document in question, and it was handed to him. Mr. Massey said that a precedent cited by Sir Joseph Ward from "tho Rulings of the Speaker" referred to tho case of a member and a late Minister ot the Crown. . Sir Joseph Ward: Or a late Minister? Mr. Massey: No, it must bo a man who is 'a member and, a lato Minister. I would like to remind you, sir, of tho circumstances under which the letter was quoted. A discussion arose between the member for Grey .Lynn, Mr. Payne, and the member for Parnell as to what transpired at a meeting at which I was present along with these two gentlemen. I related the whole of tho circumstances so far as 1 could recollect them, word for word. I told Mr. Payno what the people were saying, and read him that part of the letter which affected him. In explaining tho position to the House this afternoon 1 quoted that part of tho letter which I had quoted to him. The Hon. 11. M'Kenzie: He says not. Mr. Massey: Oh, well, 1 don't think ho will deny it. I am quite sure that if Mr. Dickson were here, he would endorse every word that I am saying. Mr. Massey added that he had no feeling on the subject. Sir Joseph Ward contended that tho rumour referred to attached to himself and to the member for Napier, Mr. Vigor Brown. Mr. Massoy: Not by w.ay of a statement to the House. I repeated a conversation between Mr. Payne and myself. Sir Joseph Ward insisted that tho rumour that the letter was intended to confirm was that Mr. Vigor Brown and himself Mr. Massey: No, no! Sir Joseph Ward: That is what the hon. gentleman said. Mr. Massey: No. Sir Joseph Word said that Mr. Payne had mentioned an allegation that an offer was made to him by the Prime Minister and Mr. Vigor Brown. Ho wanted to point out where the member for Napier and himself stood. The member for Parnell had no doubt been put up to make his statement. Mr. Massey: Oh, sir! I object to that. ■ Sir Joseph Ward: The member for Parnell has told that himself.

.The Premier Contradicted. Mr. Dickson: I riso to a point of order. I have not said that! The statement that the Prime Minister has made is contrary to fact.' I did not mako such a statement, and I ask him to withdraw it. Sir Joseph Ward said that ho could not withdraw the statement. It had been brought to him by another hon. member Of the House. Mr. Speaker ruled that the Prime Minister must accept the statement of the member for Parnell. Sir Joseph Ward: Well, I accept the statement. Mr; Ma'ssey said that he was quite willing to show the hon. gentleman the letter. _ Sir Joseph Ward: "But I want to be in a position to prosecute the man who wrote it. That is the proper thins to do." Asa matter if ordinary fairness, ho asked tho Leader of the Opposition not to shelter the man who had written an untruthful statement reflecting upon members of tho House. Any member inight bo placed in tho same position to-morrow. Ho had received scores of letters about members of Parliament in his time, and had never used any of them. He asked the Loader of the Opposition, as a matter of ordinary ]ustice, to supply the names of the people who wrote the letter. It was the common duty, of all to protect the reputations of members. The onus should bo thrown upon tho member for Napier and himself of defending themselves. That was the way to raise tho tone of political life in this country, and piwe.it aspersions being cast upon the character of hon. members. Meantime, the Prime Minister asked the Speaker to rule as to whether a breach of privilege had been committed. Ruling from the Chair. Tho Speaker said that nothing in the document under discussion made any direct chargo against the Prime Minister or Mr \ igor Brown. Tho member tor. Grey Lynn, i, O unt l crs [. oo j woul( j speak for himself. The Primo Minister had asked whether a breach of privilege had arisen in connection with a reflection ur.on himself mid Mr. Visor Brown Sir Joseph Ward interjected n reference to the rumour about Napier. Mr. Speaker: There is nothing in this letter about it. lam of opinion that there is no breach of privilege in lavin<* this letter on the table. ' "

MR. PAYNE ASKS FOR A RULING. HE WANTS AN INQUIRY. A question of privilege was raised by Mr. PAYNE, who said that he was placed in a very awkward position by the statement in the letter. His honour had been besmirched throughout the length and the breadth of tho country, and he asked the Speaker to rule whether tho. original letter should bo tabled so that lie would be given information that would enable him to prosecute the people responsible for the letter. The SPEAKER ruled that tho Loader of the Opposition was bound to produce onlv the portion of the letter he had rend. It was for the House to. deride whether there had 'beeu a breach of privilege' against the member for Grey Lviur. and." if it decided in the affirm". 1-jVf-. tf >»t up -n CommiHo of Inquiry thai''would b» authorised to miike in-

quiry regarding tho. authorship of the. letter. Members drew attention to a number of rulings which they suggested make tho production of the original letter necessary, but the Speaker ruled that the document before tho House was not an anonymous letter, or a summary of n letter. It contained certain extracts from a letter which tho Leader of tho Opposition described as signed and containing names, none of which ho desired to mention. Mr. MASSEY reminded the House that ho was called upon to state what occurred at the interview, and, in response to the request of Mr. Payne he read a portion of tho letter. There was no charge against Mr. Payne.

A Further Que«tion. Mr. BROWN raised a further question of breach of privilege, as ho said tho Leader of the Opposition had stated that ho had a letter informing him that the member for Napier and tho Prime Minister had given Mr. Pay-no ,£IOOO. Mr. Massey: That is not so. Ho added that then: was no mention of Mr. Brown's name in tho letter, directly or indirectly. There was a rumour related to Mr .Payne that he had l>eeu "squared" by the Prune Minister and Mr. Brown. Iu tho conversation which he hod related, there was no mention of money in connection with their names. Mr. PAYNE said that a dishonourable charge had been made against him, and asked for a full inquiry into tho matter. He moved that the publication of tho extract from tho lettor was a breach of tho privileges of the House.

Mr. Veitch Speakt. Mr. W. A. VEITCn (Wangonui) seconded the motion, saying that it referred to a member of tho Labour party, and that party should havo an opportunity of clearing itself. Ho would not say who was right or wrong. That would be out of place at the presont time. They had got into a most unfortunate position, when on lion, member of that House brought forward charges against another l:on. member and was not prepared to tako up that charge. Ho said any charge mado against a member of tho House should be provod up to tho hilt—that it was right or wrong—and the responsibility in this case rested with tho gentleman who had brought tho matter before the House. I'liero was somo feeling of intimidation with regard to how their votes were going to bo recorded. It was due to the people of New Zealand that they should see whether this was a genuine charjo or "ot. Mr. HANA.N (Invercargill) supported the motion heartily. Mr. Payne should be given an opportunity to clear himself from such a charge. He should bo given the opportunity to clear himself of tho charge that ho was a villain upon mere hearsay or rumour. They should not accept suspicion as guilt. No man's character was safe, and when they destroyed a mans character they destroyed "the man. He (Mr. Hanan) believed this was a dastardly charge, and asked why was it not proved in tho Supremo Court. In ruining that man they wcro ruining his wife and his children. What was that man s case to-day might be his to-morrow, and it might bo a faked letter. Mr. Fisher hoped tho Houso would unanimously pass the motion.

Mr. Robertson's Point of View. M 5. ROBERTSON (Otaki) supported tho motion from a Labour man b point of view. Tho charge assumed a special significance in view of the no-confidence motion that was before the Houso. Mr. Payno had announced that ho was going to change his vote, and now this chargo was brought up. It looked as if it were meant to intimidate tho Labour members.' (Government applause.) He could see a way to vote for the Government and still keep his pledges. He referred to the charge as an attempt at assassination, and his colleague, Mr. Payne, should havo been given an opportunity to clear his character. Mr. BELL pointed out that tho chargo was not that the hon. member for Grey Lynn had received money, but that ho had been offered money. Government members: Squared. Mr. Bell said it was the straight thing for the leader of any party to toll a man of charges that were being made against him, so that ho should have an opportunity, of clearing himself. The letter received by Mr. Massey was a confidential one. The Hon. J. A. MILLAR said there were two charges, and they were so mixed up that tho inference was that £1000 had been received. If Mr. Pnvne had voted with tho Opposition, ho (Mr. Millar) believed they would never havo heard anything of tho charge. (Hear, hear.) The Opposition party had decided to bring this matter up threo days ago. Mr. Massey: That's not to. Mr. Millar: Very well. The charge in tho letter was that Mr. Payne was "squared," and there was a statement that he had been offered J!1000. The inference was that he had been "squared" by Mr. MASSEY said lie had been asked by Mr. Payne in tho Houso to repeat tho conversation he had had with him, and he had done so. Part of that conversation was the reading of the letter that ho had read to Mr. Payne. Complying with a suggestion, Mr. Massey read tho "Hansard" report of his speech in tho afternoon. The passage reporting Mr. Massey's question addressee! to Mr. Payne, as to whether he had read the letter to him, Mr. Payne's reply was reported, "No, you did not." Mr. Massey declared that he would not opposo an inquiry into tho matter. Mr. E. P. Lee (Oamaru) said he would support the motion. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said; "Probably a more abominable breach.of frivilcge has never come before this louse. Throe charges of an atrocious character havo been made against Mr. Payne—charging hirn with being a traitor to his duty, to his country, and to those who elected him to Parliament." Mr. Russell expressed the opinion that tho matter had been introduced simnly because the member for Grey Lynn, having boon elected as a Labour .member, the Leader of tho Opposition"had determined at the start to show what his idea of Labour partios was, nnd had employed the letter for tho purposo .of crushing an incipient.Labour party. Mr. Massey: I do»y that. I assisted Mr. Payne—three Labour members to get into this Hotis-o. Mr. Russell attributed to Mr. Massey nnd Mr. Dick?on something in tho nature of an intentional determination to put their heads together for party purposes in order to try to crush the member for Grey Lvnn nt the beginning of his career. Mr. BROWN taunted Mr. Massey with being nfraid to produce the original letter, which ho declared had been brought into tbe House to damn the character of one of the new members.

Further Remarks by Mr. Payne. Mr. PAYNE said he would like to emphasise tho fact that Mr. Dickson had said that no mention was made of a bribe at the meeting in his office at Auckland. Opposition members: No mention of money. Mr. Payne: Nothing about a bribe or money, or anything else appertaining" to it. Mr. Massey had distinctly stated that this matter of a bribe and money in connection with it was mentioned. Mr. Payne went on to state that, prior to the first meeting, Mr. Dickson came to him and said, "Here, I am looking for yon. 1 want to tako you along to see Mr. Massey. - ' Government members: Oh! Mr. Payne said that he told Mr. Massey that owing to the reports' that. Tin: Dominion newspaper had published with regard to the tramway strike, it had made his position a most serious one in the eyes of tho workers as a Labour member. Ho must see the heads of his committees .before ho gave his further word in regard to his vote. Prior to the second meeting, in Wellington, Mr. Dickson came to him and asked him when he could go to see Mr, Massey. At. the meeting, Mr. Massey and Mr. Dickson both spoke to him. of the, iniquities of breaking pledges. Mr. Massey said that a petition had boon started in Auckland with tho object of asking Mr. Payne to resign, and that ho (Mr. Massey) had stopped it. Mr. Massey: That is so; Mr. Payne admitted having told Mr. Massey that ho had Ix>ph offered .£SOO or .£IOOO to vote with the Ward Government. At that timo Mr. Massey did not ask who had made the offer. Later, when Mr. Dickson met him in the Grand Hotel and asked him who had made tho offer, ho told him in confidence (hat it was "Charlie M'Masters." Mr. Payne contended that. Mr. Dickson and his ehief were'at variance in regard to the facts its to what had taken place at the mectiil'.'s which had bwn described.

•Mr. MASSET stated that, another witbom, uot provipusly mentioned, had been

present when lie read the letter to Mr. Payne. This was Mr. Guthrie, of Oroua, who saw him produce tho letter, though ho withdrew before it was read. Mr. Payne: Yes, the blue letter of Charlie M'Masters, Mr. Massey: Oh, no! That was another letter. Mr. D. 11. GUTHRIE (Oroua) some minutes later said that he entered Mr, Massey's office and found tho Leader of ho Opposition there with Mr. Payne. In his presence Mr. Massey produced a letter, tore it open, and then asked him to withdraw. Mr. Gnthrio said ho certainlv saw a letter produced bv Mr. Massey and removed from its envelope Mr. J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) said he would not liavo spoken had there not been a reflection upon tho Loader of tho Opposition by tho member for Avon. In dealing with Mr. Payne, Mr. Jlassev had been dealing with a member of Ins own party; Mr. Payne was not returned solely in tho interest of Labour, but also in the Opposition interest. Mr. Payne: No.. Mr. Bradney said he was one of Mr. laynes constituents, and! was, in a large measure, responsible for his return. Had it not been for'the prossuTe brought to bear by the Reform party, and especially' by himself, his party, and a third gentleman, Mr. Payno would not bo sitting in tho House. 'He added that, in his opinion, Mr. Massey had acted in a fair and equitable manner.

Against Wasting Time. Mr. *H. ATMORE (Nelson) said that lie wished, as a new member, to express his disgust at the waste' of time that had taken place. The discussion had degenerated into an ignominious party wrangle. The member for Avon had worked himself up into a fine frenzy, but tile facts of the ease were plain, and. it was simply a matter of putting the question to the vote. The country wished to see who was to bo entrusted with tho reins of Government. (Hear, hear.) He did not think the House was justified in wasting time when so important a question was awaiting settlement. Mr. .T. H. ESCOTT (Pahiatua) spoko in a similar strain, declaring himself, disgusted at the way in which timo had been wasted. He considered that no member could be absolved from a pledge. If he felt bound to break a pledge he should hand in his resignation, go back to his constituency, and allow the electors to be tho judges of his conduct. Mr. D. BUICK (Palmorston North) denied tho allegation' made by Mr Millar that, the Reform party had been ready for three days to raise.this question. As a fact, the Reform party on the previous day were bursting to take a divi-sion-flirar, adjourned with pain. (Laughter.) This matter had not been premeditated. ~.,,,, ~, ■Sir Joseph WART) said that the right of every member in the House to speak upon a no-coniidence motion could not be subordinated to the desire of the Leader of tho Opposition to go to a division. Ho dissented from tho chorus of "Hear hears" which had greeted tho suggestion that a division should have been taken on the previous evening. Ho declined.to take, any responsibility; for tho delay that iiad 'occurred over this unexpected diversion. Mr. J. A. YOUNG (Waikato) protested against the subordination of tho truo interests of the country by an acrimonious debate upon a question which the House was agreed should bo referred to a tribunal for full inquiry. Mr. 11. G. Ell (Chrisblmrch South) said that it must be- clear to every member that the "wrong" as it was described by Mr. Dickson would never have como before the House had the member for Grey Lynn not decided to alter his altitude in relation to tho parties.

Thorough Investigation Wanted. The Hon. T. MACKENZIE said that the member for Wanganui, in alluding to possible intimidation of Labour members, had given the House n lead which would have a most salutary effect. Ho hoped that tho writer of tho letter would he brought to book for it. It had been modo clear that no money had passed. Tho man who was said to have made tho offer on behalf of the Ward party was the man who was taking action with a view • to malting Mr. Payne support the Opposition party. He denied that it was a waste of time.to place this matter clearly .before the people. A full and thorough investigation- should be made into these charges. (Opposition "Hear hears.") The member for Parnell, with his simulated concern for the honour of tho House, would have done woll to bring tho matter up before Mr. Payne declared what position ho intended to take in the nending division. Mr. R. H. RHODES (Ellesmere) gave a flat denial to what he termed the gross mis-statement of tho Minister for Agriculture that the attitude of tho Re- j form Party had been changed by the speech of tho member for 'Wanganui. When the motion before the House was first proposed, ho (Mr. Rhodes) said to the Leader of the Opposition, "You will not oppose this motion?" and Mr. Massey indicated that ho would not. ■ The Reform Party had spontaneously decided to support tho proposal to hold an inquirv. Mr. G. W. FORBES (Hurumii) said that concern for the honour of the House had not been displayed by the Opposition until they were spurred by a sense of injury. The whole business was a fake; the trap was laid; and a document was prepared in' readiness for the declaration by the member for Pnrnell. Mr. Eisner interjected that the copy was mado while Mr. Massey was speaking. -'■• V*™*,,. ttlij. Mr. A. S. MALCOLM (Clutha) reminded :dv. I.aurenson of how he fell in over "the Voucher Incident," and was not ashamed to attack a man through tho members of his family. An appeal to the Speaker by Government members proveuted Mr. Malcolm from developing his analogy further. Mr. Malcolm wont on to state that,tho member for Lyttelton had resorted to innuendo and had presented a distorted vorsion of tho case to the House The member for Grey Lynn himself introduced the subject under discussion to the House, in the intimate relation embodied in his sneech. He then mentioned his conversations with Mr. Massey. Xo charges had been made by tho Reform party, but' it would welcome aii investigation of the matter.

About "Falling-in." Mr. LAUREXSOX said that in talking of "the voucher incident" Mr. Malcolm had deliberately, made a charge which he knew to bo untrue. lie (.Mr. Laurojison) had had nothing to do with "the voucher." .Mr. Fisher stated that lie alone was responsible for "the voucher charges." Mr. .Malcolm said that Mr. Lnurenson had been associated with the men who wero concerned in the vouchor incident, and had shared tho same platform with them. ■ , ~ Mr. Laurenson declared that if the member for Chit ha had had a spark of the gentleman in his composition, ho would have withdrawn his statement. The SPEAKER ordered him to withdraw this remark.- and ho did so. Tho lion. D. BL'DDO remarked Hint the member for (.'lutha, instead of pouring oil on troubled waters, had put sand Dr. TE RAXGIHIROA said the member i'or Clnthn had talked of falling in, but no member ever fell in more completely than that, member when he attended a rertain wedding. (Much laughter, in which Mr. Malcolm joined.) Mr. PAVXE, speaking in reply, said that the member for Clutha had endeavoured to show that 110 serious charges

had been laid. Ho again emphatically denied that tho letter containing allegations against himself had bc*cn read to him ns stated by Mr. Massey;. A Committee of Privilege The motion declaring tho publication of the extract from the letter a breach of privilege was carried on tho voices. The PRIME MINISTER then moved :- "That a Conimittco of Privilege be appointed to take into full consideration tho writing and publication of a letter admitted to have been written to and received by the lion, member for Franklin, an extract from which letter was to-day read in tho House by tho Hon. member, copy of which extract is as follows:—"\ou may remember my introducing you to young , son of , one of tho young Catholic party, who do not follow Ward. Ho worked hard and loyally for us in Parnoll, Ponsonby, and especially in Grey Lynn. Ho now assures mo that Payno has been squared ,£IOOO to support Ward on a confidence motion. So sure is ho of the correctness of the information that his dad has offered level money to .£IOO on Payno voting against you on such a motion, and doos not waste any money in betting without reason." Tho Prime Minister further proposed that the committee should consist of Messrs. Jas. Allen, W. Fraser, J. Hanan, W., Nosworthy, E. P. Lee, G. W. Russell, J. Robertson, G. M. Thomson, W. A. Vcitch, and tho Hon. J. A. Millar, seven to form a quorum j the committee to have power to call for persons, papers, and records. Tho committee, ho remarked, would consist of five Opposition members, threo Government members, two member* of tho Labour party, and tho Minister. The Primo Minister suggosted that the committee should be instructed to report within threo days.

MR. MASSEY'S POSITION. HE INTENDS TO "FACE THE MUSIC." Mr. Massey said that ho had very little fault to find with tho committee; only one of its members had shown any personal antagonism towards himself. He did not intend to name this member, because ho (the moinber) would not be able to do any harm. Mr. Massey said that ho intended to take full responsibility for what had taken plaoo. Ho intended to "face tho music." If ho had mado a slip ho would take his punishment, either before the committee, or if it becanio nocessary for him to hand in his resignation and face his constituents. There would bo no backsliding on his part. He intended to get witnesses from Auckland to substantiate what was in the letter boforo the House. Ho had not brought this matter up by way of a charge, but bocause ho had been asked to repeat a conversation between himself and tho member for Grey Lynn. Tho extract, which ho quoted, was part of that conversation. Probably ho should not havo quoted the extract. He did it without thinking, and,took responsibility for what ho had done, (Applause, in which some Government members joined). A further question of privilege 'was raised by Mr. J. V. Brown, on the ground that a charge had been mado ngainst him by a statement by Mr. Massey that ho had been instrumental in squaring Mr. Payne at Napier. He considered that he bad been grossly slandered, and ho asked that inquiry 6hould also bo mado regarding the charges against him. Tho SPEAKER said that the House should follow the precedent of an inquiry in 1572, and rcfor tho matter to a committee, to report whether a breach of privilege hod been committed, and.if so by whom, and to report its opinion to House, Sir Joseph WARD said that the man who started tho rumour was an infernal scoundrel—a blackguard of blackguards. Ho was ontitlod to information that would enable him to identify tho author of the scandal. He wanted to know who wrott tho letter. Mr. Massey remarked that the letter mado no mention of tho rumour about the Prime Minister and Mr. Brown. Mr. FISHER then moved: "That the statement mado this day by Mr. John Payne, mombor for Grey Lynn, to the effect that one M'Masters, of Auckland, had been authorised to givo him a sum of anything between .£SOO nnd .£IOOO if he (the member for Grey Lynn) would go in the direction of tho Ward party is a breach of the privileges of this House." Mr. Fisher also road an extract from 1 Mr. Payne's Hansard proof as follows:— "When Mr. Massey mado this statement about tho .£IOOO or that I had been fixed' in Napier by Mr. Vigor Brown, I said I can toll you the reason for that rumour, and I can tell you the parties. . , I was called into the office of Mr Maurice O'Connor by Mr. Charles M'Mastors. who was in a half-drunken and muddled condition. Ho said: "Do you know I have been authorised to give you anything, between. , .£SOO nnd .£IOOO, if vou will go in the direction of tho Ward party.'" Mr. Fisher said that if tho statement was true, the man who made the offer of money should bo punished. For the honour, of the partv which ho represented, the member for 'Grey Lynn should have informed the Houso that an attempt had been mado to buy him. Mr. Fisher ■ agreed with interjecting members, that being a new member, Mr. Payne had possibly, not been acquainted with the privileges of the House. ~ :, The motion was carried on the voices, tho samo committee being appointed, under tho samo conditions, as in tho preceding cases. ■ ■ ■

ADJOURNMENT OPPOSED. . PROTEST AGAIXST WASTING TIME. Tho PREMIER, at a quarter to- one o'clock, ■ proposed that the no-confidence debute should 'oe adjourned. Mr. HINDMARSH strongly opposed the proposal, and urged Mr. Masscy to resist tho adjournment, and bring tho no-confi-dence motion to a division. Incidentally, Mr. Hindmarsh promised the Reform Leader his support if his advice worfl taken. '__''. Ko other member seemed inclined ,to follow this lead, and the question was about to be put, when The PRIME MINISTER rose to remark that to force an immediate division would be unjust to members who had not yet spoken. Mr. Hindmarsh: Let them speak now, Sir Joseph Ward said that this would involve- sitting . until midnight on Saturday. Mr. Hindmarsh: It has been done before; done bv you, often enough. (Laughter.) Mr.vMASSEY said that there had been an abominable waste of time since the session started. lie had taken part in ninny debates, but he had never seen time so wasted, so wilfully wasted as it had bren during tho past few days. Sir Joseph Ward: Let us «il on and come lo a division. You are suggesting that I should stop members from siwakinir. Mr. M-asspy: Xo. I nil) siyinjj that during the last four days the ti'»o of tlw House has bren abominably wasted. Time had been taken up in the afternoons in the reading of long Parliamentary papers. That afternoon a transparent attempt had been made to get up a discussion on mining matters. Mr. T. \Y. R HOPES, who had spoken in the afternoon discussion on mining, indignantl.v denied that he had' assisted to waste time. The House adjourned at t.l.i a.m., r l the moiiou of Hit- Hon. T. Mackec;',o until 7.30 p.Li. on Monday uext.